Marriott - direct from developer vs from resale market

[Beverley]

We hve bought three directly from Marriott and one resale. We bought from Marriott knowing there was a resale market with lower prices. The use of points was the major reason for us purchasing from Marriott. It's not a case of "only the points" beiing the difference in value. That's a rather simplistic view IMHO but it is probably true for a family who wants to vacation in one place often and maybe trade into another TS somewhere else.

The points have allowed us to save thousands on overseas vacations as well as given us free access to Marriott hotels everywhere. We have already recovered the difference in value and still have the option to use points in the future. If you look at where Marriott timeshares are located (and all timeshares in general) the locations are quite limited. Usually in resort areas, but not many in the major cities of the US and Europe.

Younger owners must realize that you will reach an age when you may want to travel without children and explore other parts of the world. Your travel requirements will change. MRP will save you a lot of money and make that kind of travel possible. That's why all of the blustering about buying resale as the only true way to own a TS is bad advice.

Ditto!

We own six Marriott weeks, some WorldMark, and one Hilton affiliate resort. The WorldMark and Hilton affiliate resort we bought resale w/o the developer being involved and, yes, saved a bunch of $$$. The Marriott weeks were all developer weeks and all but two were preconstruction. So that means that we were owners at bran new resorts and using them long before resales were available.

We bought 2 Marriott weeks from Marriott as resales so yes they are in the point system and they cost more than buying from a private sale. Our main reasons for doing this besides the points is that there were no resales privately for what we wanted when we wanted to buy it AND quite honestly I do not want to be bothered negotiating a terrific deal only to have Marriott swoop in and buy it our from under me so I just skipped that whole process.

We are not sorry for any of the purchases except that if we had to do it over again the only change we would make is to have bought more platinum units. We have amortized the expense of our purchases including maintenance fees already with two month long trips to Europe and one month long trip to Hawaii with numerous other smaller trips wherein we got free hotels and free airline for ourselves and our daughters and even some of their friends. I realize all the "bean" counters would probably contest this but to each his own.

We love our points and the extra places we can go as a result and also being able to secure a place while awaiting a trade request so that we can secure flights etc.

You asked why.. those were most of our reasons.

 

[LisaRex]

I hope this helps.

Terry

It does. Thanks to you and Lawlar for your feedback.

 

[dioxide45]

I used points and a couple of trades to cover the 41 nights so my MF plus II costs were about $2,200. That's a difference of about $10,000 that I did not pay.

Can you explain how this only cost you $2200?

Looking at the numbers. 41 nights would require ~5 TS weeks.
Two as exchanges $200
Three as exchange for points. If you used a travel package, which it sounds like you did then you would need ~250000 MR points for each week. That would equate to trading in 6 timeshare weeks for points.
So you have 8 TS weeks of MF+T, ~$750 for each week, $6000 total.
$624 to trade all those 6 weeks in for points.

That comes out closer to $7000 for those 41 nights. Still a deal, but far beyond your number. Now perhaps you didn't get three travel packages and just did some hotel only rewards. That would lower the number of points needed and reduce my cost somewhat. Perhaps some of those points were earned from other hotel stays and a MR Visa. When you bring those in to the equation it gets harder to determine your true cost.

 

[kjd]

The $2,200 cost figure I used was derived in this manner. The 41 days of vacation was obtained with an MGC one bedroom lockoff traded for a two bedroom Timber Lodge. The other week was an MGC two bedroom lockoff as an owner. The MF for both units is about $2,000. The remaining $200 is an approximation of II charges. The remaining 27 days were Marriott hotel rooms purchased with MRPs from an accumulation of approximately 600,000 points. There was no air fare involved. No points were purchased.

The points were accumulated through ts purchase incentives, weekend pleasure trips and the Visa Premier card. The hotels ranged from cat 2 to cat 6. My normal charge to Visa Premier averages about $4,000 per month, none of it from business use. Presently, I have about 200,000 MRPs. To increase my point level in the future I will have to turn in one or two of my ts weeks for points and probably purchase some additional points as well. This no doubt will raise my cost for the same number of vacation days but it will still be worth it when you consider the increasing cost of travel..

 

[Latravel]

I am always surprised when people seem upset that Marriott would require more points for air/hotel packages than in the past. The cost of everything has gone up so why would hotel rooms be different? I don't believe this is some sort of conspiracy by Marriott to cheat owners, it's just a reality of our current economy. In fact, when it takes more points for a certain category of hotel, all I think is i'm glad i'm just paying with points instead of dollars!

I agree with others that the initial amount of incentive points we received from Marriott helped us decide to purchase direct. The large amount we received equalled and surpassed the cost difference between direct vs resale. How else could we justify the cost difference?

 

[Beverley]

The $2,200 cost figure I used was derived in this manner. The 41 days of vacation was obtained with an MGC one bedroom lockoff traded for a two bedroom Timber Lodge. The other week was an MGC two bedroom lockoff as an owner. The MF for both units is about $2,000. The remaining $200 is an approximation of II charges. The remaining 27 days were Marriott hotel rooms purchased with MRPs from an accumulation of approximately 600,000 points. There was no air fare involved. No points were purchased.

The points were accumulated through ts purchase incentives, weekend pleasure trips and the Visa Premier card. The hotels ranged from cat 2 to cat 6. My normal charge to Visa Premier averages about $4,000 per month, none of it from business use. Presently, I have about 200,000 MRPs. To increase my point level in the future I will have to turn in one or two of my ts weeks for points and probably purchase some additional points as well. This no doubt will raise my cost for the same number of vacation days but it will still be worth it when you consider the increasing cost of travel..

GREAT WORK!

Beverley

 

[Lawlar]

I Prefer Cash

Dear KJD: We will always disagree on this topic. But that’s ok. We’ll agree to disagree and enjoy the debate.

MR reminds me a lot of Blue Chip Stamps (also Green Stamps). When I was a kid my parents paid me 25 cents for each redemption book I filled by pasting their stamps on the pages. I made out big time on that deal. When I was older I used to buy gas and groceries wherever I could find advertisements promoting 3X, or even 10X, blue chip stamps (i.e. 3 or 10 stamps for every dollar as opposed to one). Even Warren Buffett got caught up with the frenzy when he bought Blue Chip Stamps as an investment. He admits it was one of his biggest mistakes. The company went broke, and Warren Buffet’s investment went to zero, when people realized that they could get cheaper gas and groceries by forgoing the stamps and looking for the cheapest prices.

Now I can brag that my 700,000+ points with Marriott is a great accomplishment (or a couple hundred thousand with Am Exp). And I did stay in a nice hotel in London using MR and I've used Am Ex points to pay for airfare. But the reality is that those points in no way are going to offset the horrible loss I would take if I sold my Marriott TS. It was a stupid purchase that cannot be justified by any type of math or financial wizardry.

If, instead of staying at Marriott hotels to earn points, I had stayed at the best hotels offering the biggest deal for that period, I would have been way ahead in actual cash savings. Fortunately, I did that many times and saved a lot more in cash than I would have earned in points. For those that can spend $4,000 a month on credit card charges (and I used to put my business expenses on my card to get the points), the savings by looking for the best bargain instead of the most points may seem unimportant. Maybe so.

For me, I’m looking to take our trips at the best hotels offering the lowest rates. Now that we are in a recession that will be easy. I’m even considering those cards that give cash back, instead of points. The nice thing about cash is that it can earn interest instead of being devalued at Marriott’s whim.

By the way, if anyone thinks that buying a TS for 700,000 points is a great opportunity, I'll sell you my TS for the same price I paid Marriott and I'll give you my 700,000 points. I'll even give you my Am Exp points. I'll even give you a free week's stay at a category 7 hotel, on me. Trust me, no one will take that deal because they would immediately lose at least $20,000 and have to pay $2,000 a year MF. But if anyone thinks that this deal would be like winning the lotto - just give me a call! [I know, some killjoy is going to mention that the points aren't transferable. But I make my point nonetheless.]

 

[pwrshift]

He asked if I had won the lottery!

This 'points debate' is never ending. I'll bet, over the years on TUG, there have been more threads on MR points than any other subject and they are always stimulating. Those who bought resale defend their position with vigour and, on TUG at least, outnumber those who bought direct. Newbies get very confused over this. Actually, I'm glad I bought 2 Marriott weeks direct years ago, before finding out about TUG -- otherwise I might have bought resale due to the convincing arguments presented here.

I can remember my first Marriott purchase (Manor Club had just opened) which came with what they called a 'world trip for two' which I promptly discounted as a publicity gimmick. I just wanted the timeshare at this very classy place that was driving distance from home. To prove to me that this was a good deal, my Marriott sales rep asked me where I wanted to go 'free' and booked everything for us -- the air and the hotel. Wow - that trip would have cost me half what the timeshare cost and opened my eyes to the value of Marriott Rewards.

A good sales rep makes a huge difference. When I bought my 2nd Marriott (this time in Fort Lauderdale as pre-construction) it also came with a pile of points ... but that sales rep wouldn't help me plan a 'world trip for two' so I went back to the MMC rep who graciously did it all again for me. This time, the 'value' of that trip was more than half the purchase price of the Lauderdale TS. I became a believer, based on the results of this benefit.

Like others here, starting out in business and as a young parent, nothing was ever handed to us on a silver platter. In the early days I had two jobs just to make ends meet. Holidays, if we took them, were at cheap nearby motels as even economy flight prices were out of reach to us financially. Times changed and our finances improved...but you never forget the tough times.

Had I bought resale and not experienced the MR program, I would never have considered 'buying' $6,000 business class tickets to Europe. Although a nice dream, I would never have paid $4,200 to stay 7-nights in a top level Marriott right on the Champs-Élysées ...and even more money for the previous week at London's County Hall. These were dream trips - almost unreal considering the vacatons of my past. And best of all, they seemed 'free'.

On my first flight to Europe in business class I met a former boss getting on the same plane - only he was in economy. He couldn't believe I could afford to fly business class or stay in those top hotels - and asked if I won the lottery. I think it spoiled his whole trip. So, we sat in a London pub one afternoon and I showed him how I did it with Marriott Rewards and timesharing. I referred him to my sales rep and he bought two weeks at Manor Club - netting me 80,000 friendshare points! I met him at an industry show a couple of years later and he and his wife had taken business class flights to Tokyo and Sydney with hotels all on MR points...and I have no idea what that would have cost paying cash. In all probability, most people would not pay those prices -- so it's reward time for all the work you put in to get where you are in life. And when you're in business class go say hello to the resale buyers back in economy...you'll get there in same time, but it's different.

So I don't think anyone is right or wrong in the MR point debates - there are advantages both ways. For young families TS is a great vacation and buying resale is very very attractive when cash is tight - but over time families change, the parents become empty nesters and it's now their time to enjoy the fruits of their labour.

Hotel prices are higher this year by about 15%, but they were higher in 2007 by about 20% over the previous year. Ouch. MR points, although there have been a few category changes (both ways) they have not been adjusted to match rack rate increases. At least for now.

 

[Latravel]

Very well written. You might not see the resale purchasers anywhere on the plane because they might not take those type of vacations at all. If I had to actually pay for those trips, I would hesitate to take them because of the cost.

 

[Steve A]

I love MR points: Park Lane, Grovesnor Square, Champs-Élysées Marriott, Marriott Marquis, Amsterdam Marriott. Plus I sent my son and one of his friends to Amsterdam and London on MR points for his college graduation. In the summer of 2009 we will be at the Shelbourne in Dublin and the Grovesnor House in London for two weeks. Plus all the airfares!!!! And I get free one-night stays, used in Chicago, for having the black Marriott card, AND I get to go to my timeshares in HHI, Aruba, and Las Vegas. How cool is that?

Let me tell you how cool this is--my wife is impressed by it all. Do you know how hard it is to impress a woman you have been married to for 33 years?

 

[Latravel]

To be honest, it's my husband that knows the in's and out's of point systems and he always impresses me. When you know how to use/play the system, it works really well.

 

[tombo]

Very well written. You might not see the resale purchasers anywhere on the plane because they might not take those type of vacations at all. If I had to actually pay for those trips, I would hesitate to take them because of the cost.

You paid for those points, and the price wasn't cheap. Marriott doesn't give away points. You paid a lot more to buy retail over resale to get those points. You trade your week in for points, but you paid MF's on that week, so once again not free.

Resale buyers don't take those kind of trips? Shocking as it may seem, resale buyers fly too. I promise we go overseas and it is not always by stowing away in the luggage.. In fact through the course of this year I owned 3 Hawaii weeks (sold them all because of high air fares and dropping demand for Hawaii), 1 Aruba week, and 1 St Maarten week. I am not a long distance swimmer and my bass boat won't make the trip, so I have to fly (sorry to lower the status of air flyers to include resale buyers). The fact that we are frugal simply means that we can go on more trips for less money. Sam Walton was one of the richest men in the world, and he continued to drive his decades old pickup truck until he died. He was asked why he didn't buy a new truck, he said why buy a new one when this one still works. Why buy retail knowing resale is available for 50% or more off of retail pricing?

P.S. Some of us cheap resale buyers actually pay to be members of TUG. I guess we can afford to join with our savings from not buying retail.

 

[pwrshift]

Tombo ... I agree with you that there's no free lunch. MR points aren't free ... but there are good and bad ways to spend them. I am amazed how many people will waste their points on a 'stay anytime' night in some hotel. Even experienced Marriott people don't fully understand the 'air+hotel' packages.

But, it's simply amazing what you can get for cashing in enough points for two cat7 pkgs plus air FF miles which nets you 2 weeks in top European hotels and two business class tickets for 540,000 pts, and still have FF miles left over. It's not the cost of the points that matters - it's how you use them. And if you know your stuff, trips like that have a value of many thousands of dollars.

The new Grande Lakes Orlando TS comes with over a million points for some $35,000 to cover everything for the first 7 years. I could easily plan trips with that many points that would cost $35,000 to buy. A free timeshare? No. But the trips sure seem free and make you feel king of the hill with memories that will last a lifetime. Just for fun, tombo, use expedia and marriott sites and pretend to spend 1 million MR points and see what the comparative cost value would be.

Brian

You paid for those points, and the price wasn't cheap. Marriott doesn't give away points. You paid a lot more to buy retail over resale to get those points. You trade your week in for points, but you paid MF's on that week, so once again not free.

 

[tombo]

Powershift, thanks for a rational reasonable explanation. Boy that is refreshing.

1 million points seems like a lot, but so does $35,000 for any orlando resort. I don't like Disney (I know that is an unpopular statement) and hope to never go there again in my life. I like thrill rides and Six Flags or Busch Gardens are more to my liking. Orlando has sooo many timeshares that you can trade in there to a nice resort really easily. What other Marriott resort's retail prices and points offerings are you familiar with? I like beach or mountains.

 

[pwrshift]

sounds like you should buy Manor Club direct -- if they still have the deal to buy resale from Marriott for $20,000 or so including up front points bonus AND every year trading for 110,000 pts. Close to Busch gardens and you'd save by not having to fly. $845 MF. Beaches cost more - expect over $1200 a week MF which gets to the borderline area of points exchanging based on $0.0125 per MR point to buy. Hawaii is never a good deal for points play...MF way too high as is the cost of getting there. You can buy BeachPlace for about $15,000 resale - but no points...I own 2 weeks there and love the location and the HOA finally woke up and is redecorating it right now. You don't even need a car there...but it's a very active (not relaxing) location of bars, beaches, restaurants, fishing, cruising, shopping, etc. -- with a Ritz right next door.

The Orlando Grande Lakes TS is a points play -- a million points that could equal your puchase price in cost 'value' travel pkgs and you don't get to use it for 7 years to get those points. And when you do use it, the 2 bdrm suite locks off into two full 1 bdrm suites each with a kitchen! Your neighbours are a JW hotel and a Ritz Carlton and a great golf course - nice! I'm not wild about Orlando either but if I didn't already have 6 Marriott weeks and already swimming in points I would have bought the first day it was offered. The economy is soft right now ... so Marriott is giving more points (in this case at least) for a 'reasonable' amount of money -- bear in mind the $35,000 I mentioned is the purchase price and 7 years of MF.

Brian

 

[tombo]

Not interested in Hawaii. I sold all 3 of my weeks this year due to high air fares. You can rent or exchange into Hawaii easy now. I still own a St Maarten and an Aruba week, both of which will be sold in the next year or so if air fares don't drop. I have already purchased air fare for Aruba 2009, and rented out St Maarten for 2009, so they are still in my inventory.

I am going to watch some Manor Club resales and see what they are selling for (I know I might not ever own for those prices but it is my point of reference). Then I can compare retail prices w/ points vs. resale prices without points.

The Orlando Grand Lakes is I assume under construction. The $35,000 is for Platinum? Also are you saying that you pay $35,000 and you owe 7 years of MF's, or does the $35000 include 7 years MF's since you can't stay there for 7 years? I also need to research what 1 million points will translate into travel wise. I assume with air fares like they are that 1 million points ain't what it used to be.

 

[GregT]

Sorry for my late arrival to the discussion...

Another reason to buy direct from the developer is if there is something specific about your unit that you want, ie a specific week or unit size.

We were planning on buying a MOC 2BR on resale, and had done extensive research on pricing. However, we became convinced that the value of a 3BR, at a specific week every year, "justified" the additional purchase price from the developer, versus a 2BR resale.

These intangible values (for an additional approx $50K!!!) were as follows:

1) We're relatively young (I'm 41)
2) Our children are 7,6,3 and will benefit from/tolerate 10-20 years of vacations with us, before they lose interest in us
3) A specific week (Week 24) allows us to go in June (not the best weather in San Diego) right after school is out
4) A 3BR allows us to bring friends/family
5) We like full kitchens (and cool pools)

This combination led us to a very expensive purchase that we have never regretted, because 1-5 above is not assured with a resale purchase. I can't justify it from a financial analysis perspective (and I'm a CPA), and I don't try to. I derive great satisfaction from what it means for our family -- it's what that commercial about "priceless" was talking about.

Interestingly, our purchase in a fixed week has spurred 2 years in a row groups of friends who are going and staying nearby -- I'm not sure if I could have achieved the same without the Week 24 anchor -- perhaps I could have, but I'm just happy about the current result.

Everyone has different motives for buying their timeshares, and for a variety of reasons, I do not dismiss buying directly from the developer. As long as we have our other financial priorities intact and we can afford our toys (which is how I view timeshares) then I don't think we should overanalyze it.

Good luck to all!!!

 

[pwrshift]

...The Orlando Grand Lakes is I assume under construction. The $35,000 is for Platinum? Also are you saying that you pay $35,000 and you owe 7 years of MF's, or does the $35000 include 7 years MF's since you can't stay there for 7 years? I also need to research what 1 million points will translate into travel wise. I assume with air fares like they are that 1 million points ain't what it used to be.

Here is a post I wrote some time ago on the Grande Lakes Orlando deal. It may have changed some since then as they sold the first 300 Founder Weeks in about a week. But it shows you that the MF is included in the pricing for 7 years of non-use...but the place doesn't open until 2010 anyways, so you're really only missing 5 years to gather up the million points (or in this example, 2 million points).

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=561412&postcount=33

The value of points seem to be chainging daily .. especially on AA which has announced a bump on Oct1 this year. UA seems to be staying the same, which is probably a competitive move against AA -- UA wants 80,000 FF miles for biz class to Europe but AA wants 100,000 now. The trick is to spend em when you get enough for a great trip.

Brian

 

[kjd]

Wise use of points

Here's something that I can agree with all of the bean counters out there. Points do have a value. Albiet, a relative one. The best approach to using the accumulation of MR points IMHO, is to use different combinations of MRP, airline reward points, cash, ts trades, II Getaways and travel bargin sales.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Marriott travel packages are a good deal. Especially for a luxury overseas vacation. However, there are times when a travel package is not practical. A MR point is generally understood to be worth between $.0125 and $.0150. Simply said, all other considerations being equal, it becomes easy to determine whether you should use points or some other vehicle when making any vacation reservation.

For example, in many business cities in the US it is not uncommon for a Marriott hotel to offer a special weekend rate that is much lower than the weekday rate. A person can then make two reservations, one to cover the weekdays with MRP and paying cash on the weekend. When you pay cash with a Premier VISA card you also accrue MR points.

Personally, I would rather stay in a lesser Marriott that cost the standard MRP reward rather than pay for an anytime hotel stay. I don't think that MRPs for cruises are a very good deal either. At least not here in Florida.

There are some instances where you may be better off using the airline points or paying cash during air fare sales. Points afterall are just another form of currency. They should be treated as such when making vacation decisions.

 

[sdtugger]

Airfare Availability is Changing

I've been playing the points/miles game for nearly 20 years. We've traveled the world on great vacations that we wouldn't have taken without miles/points. But, I'm finding that the current environment for airfare using points/miles is the worst I've seen in 20 years. You can still find seats at times, but it is very difficult to find seats during the holiday periods when schools are out and I am finding that I often have to pay double the miles to get tickets when I need to go. That's the one fear that has kept me from accumulating even more points/miles.

 

[pwrshift]

I also like the hotel sampler awards...use the package to get you there and take a week in a top hotel...then take a week in 3 different hotels in Europe before going home (150,000 MR pts).

http://www.marriott.com/rewards/usepoints/morepack.mi

Don't know where you got the 'value' of a MR point as I use the actual purchase price from Marriott of $0.0125 per point as the start point on which to evaluate a hotel stay vs pts.

https://buy.points.com/marriott/init.do;jsessionid=BBE0037E17952F60537BE54A0272A63F?method=buy

... A MR point is generally understood to be worth between $1.25 and $1.50. Simply said, all other considerations being equal, it becomes easy to determine whether you should use points or some other vehicle when making any vacation reservation.

.

 

[kjd]

pwrshift

You are correct, my error. I meant to state an MRP is worth $.0125-$.0150. I will edit my previous post so there is no confusion. Thanks.

 

[tombo]

For us non-points TUGGERS, how do marriott points excahnge for FF miles for the different airlines? Is it one Marriott point per one FF Delta mile, or ten Marriott points per Delta FF miles? Does it vary on exchange value for different airlines? Is there any preferential treatment for Marriott points owners or do you have to exchange marriott points for FF miles and then keep looking and hoping to find a flight using FF miles like the rest of us are doing right now? I keep hearing how great the points are but I have no idea what a Marriott point translates into when using them for airline tickets.

 

[Dave M]

With the best deal - the air/hotel travel packages - each additional FF mile costs one Marriott Rewards point. Thus, it's one-for-one. It's much more costly (in terms of points) to request only FF miles.

 

[seema]

With the best deal - the air/hotel travel packages - each additional FF mile costs one Marriott Rewards point. Thus, it's one-for-one. It's much more costly (in terms of points) to request only FF miles.

Can you give a numerical example # MRP for frequent flyer miles and for the air/hotel travel package?