Marriott - direct from developer vs from resale market

[seema]

In the other thread that I started (in which I did not ask the question, but some of the answers responded to this question) - link: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79628


most of the people suggested that buying a property on the resale market has the advantage (esp with price) which is not outweighed by buying directly from the developer (mainly having access to Marriott points).

If so, most people (esp those who participate in this bulletin board, and are aware of the resale market) would buy Marriott units through the resale market. However, my guess is that the majority of TUG participants (on the Marriott forum) still purchase directly from the developer. Is that the case? If so, what are the reasons (not mentioned in the other thread) that one buys from the developer versus buying from a resale realtor/resale web site/another owner directly.

 

[qlaval]

... my guess is that the majority of TUG participants (on the Marriott forum) still purchase directly from the developer. Is that the case? .....

I don't think that's the case

 

[Valleykat]

If so, what are the reasons (not mentioned in the other thread) that one buys from the developer versus buying from a resale realtor/resale web site/another owner directly.

I didn't read the other thread, but in our case and probably many, in all honesty, the answer is simple: IGNORANCE. We would not purchase direct again and don't find the value in the points that were so highly promoted in our presentation. That said, we are trying not to live by regrets, but make the best and the most of it now.

 

[sandesurf]

I can only speak for us... We bought directly from Marriott in 1995. Long before knowing of resale or TUG. After learning the ropes, so to speak, we purchased our 2nd Marriott "resale" from a private party off TUG! Saved us thousands and have been treated like first class Marriott owners at both properties.
In 1995 we also bought into a different timshare system, from the developer, and have since bought two more, in the same system, through resale purchases (one from EBAY), and feel very pleased with those!
Do we regret buying from the developers? Yes! But I've also learned how to get the most out of our units, from reading on TUG, and making the most of them!
The talk about Marriott trying to restrict resale buyer's reservations to 6 months doesn't worry me. I'm sure IF and when that happens we'll be grandfathered in. The only problem would arrise if we wanted to sell it, I suppose. Luckily, I don't foresee that needing to happen.
If you think about it, all that resticted talk could sure be a sales tactic from Marriott! Causing people to shy away from the resale market. Lucky us!
Live and learn

 

[sandesurf]

I didn't read the other thread, but in our case and probably many, in all honesty, the answer is simple: IGNORANCE. We would not purchase direct again and don't find the value in the points that were so highly promoted in our presentation. That said, we are trying not to live by regrets, but make the best and the most of it now.

Hey Vallykat! GMTA!

 

[Latravel]

I don't agree at all that most people from the TUG board buy resale. Those that purchased from the developer are just not as vocal since it takes some courage to be pro-"direct purchase". It is also absolutely not true that ignorance is the reason people buy from the developer.

I am an engineer, so is my husband, and we usually over analyze the heck out of everything (with formulas, cost/benefit analysis, the works) and we purchased directly from the developer. In fact, we just purchased our 3rd week last month, all from Marriott. The benefits were so great (points, Marriott hotel vacations, no ownership restrictions, safety from future program changes, etc), that, if I dare to be brave, I can't see how people wouldn't buy direct. I understand that saving money in the beginning is the main reason but the future benefits make up for the cost difference.

I would not have enjoyed the full benefits of a Marriott purchase if I bought resale, so I feel it's important to constantly state the other point of view for the sake of balance.

 

[sandesurf]

I would not have enjoyed the full benefits of a Marriott purchase if I bought resale, so I feel it's important to constantly state the other point of view for the sake of balance.

What "Full benefits" are you talking about??

The points are the ONLY thing resale buyers don't get. I say this as both a developer buyer, who got a ton of points w/purchase and a resale buyer. The first few years of owning, back in the late 90's, you could easily trade into other Vacation Club Villas with points. Those days are over. Trading in your whole 1 or 2 bd. Villa (plus a fee), for points, for a week (or less) in hotels does not seem like a good value for the points. Better to rent out or lock-off the 2 bd. and trade into bigger or better places. Which you can certainly do with a resale unit.
As I said above, We've been treated as respected Marriott owners at our resale property, MOC, and have gotten our first choice for reservations, a summer week, each time.

 

[Latravel]

One of the benefits of purchasing a timeshare from a large hotel chain is the ability to access their hotel units. If you buy resale, you cannot trade in your timeshare unit for a hotel unit. This may not be important to you, but I like to go to places where there are no timeshare units. I want to travel and see the world. If I bought resale, I could not enjoy the full benefits of owning a Marriott timeshare since I couldn't trade in my unit and stay in their hotels all over the world. I would be stuck in my unit or another timeshare. Once my young children are grown, I won't want to travel in the same way. The ability to be flexible in my travel plans is priceless. The ability to hand this benefit down to my children with the unit eventually by far exceeds the extra money I paid initially for the unit. I tried to think long term, not short term price savings. This may not be a benefit to you, but it is to a majority of Marriott owners who purposely paid more for this benefit. People are not dumb or ignorant, as stated above.

 

[Zac495]

I bought a developer week AFTER buying resale for the points. I was given great advice here by many (Brian knows a lot I'm sure he'll chime in).

I agree with others - I like the ability to go places that don't have timeshares. the travel package is great - BUT - the FF miles are a MESS right now (not Marriott's fault). Many of the Marriott properties are for a premium - double points (Marriott's fault). Airlines are talking about raising the amount of points needed for a flight - will Marriott lower the amount of points needed to purchase a package? Of course not. So that devalues my points. Biggest thing - you can BUY those points for just under the cost of the maintenance fee (or for less - depending on where you buy).

I don't regret my purchase. I hope on Friday to report about my points trip (if the airline miles work). That said - had I known what I know today, I wouldn't have bought developer. I would have started buying points every year. I would have more than 10K in my pocket - though I got a great deal.

IF you buy developer for the points - why not purchase the best deal? Manor Club seems to be it 110K every year, maintenance fees are much lower than Hawaii.

Brian mentioned the new Orlando giving away a million points?? Never heard more about that.

I also own Aruba - bought that resale. It's worth what I paid for it still (maybe a few bucks more -enough to cover closing costs). When we check in, they are so glad to see us. We're OWNERS. The front desk doesn't care that we can't trade for points -he's glad to see us in Aruba.

I don't worry for one minute that my Aruba resale will have any changes with any future Marriott change. They have to grandfather it. The contract is clear about points - but nothing else. If they do that to my aruba resale, they kill my developer property, too. In other words - they would be telling people at a sales presentation that Marriott timeshares are great to own - but don't ever try to sell them because they'll become useless. Who would buy something they could never sell? Underwear and food - not much else.

But for those who choose to buy developer anyway - I would never call you dumb or ignorant. As long as you have all the pieces of the puzzle, it's your choice, money, and life.

 

[kjd]

We hve bought three directly from Marriott and one resale. We bought from Marriott knowing there was a resale market with lower prices. The use of points was the major reason for us purchasing from Marriott. It's not a case of "only the points" beiing the difference in value. That's a rather simplistic view IMHO but it is probably true for a family who wants to vacation in one place often and maybe trade into another TS somewhere else.

The points have allowed us to save thousands on overseas vacations as well as given us free access to Marriott hotels everywhere. We have already recovered the difference in value and still have the option to use points in the future. If you look at where Marriott timeshares are located (and all timeshares in general) the locations are quite limited. Usually in resort areas, but not many in the major cities of the US and Europe.

Younger owners must realize that you will reach an age when you may want to travel without children and explore other parts of the world. Your travel requirements will change. MRP will save you a lot of money and make that kind of travel possible. That's why all of the blustering about buying resale as the only true way to own a TS is bad advice.

 

[rpw]

Don't forget the obvious

New developments have no resale (they usually aren't built yet) and used to have a ton of free points!

 

[Lawlar]

Different Worlds

Try as I might, I don’t get it. I mean I really don’t get it.

For the interest you would make on the money you spend to purchase a TS (not to mention the interest to finance, if you go that way) and the MFs, you can stay at some extremely nice hotels. You can select any date / location / amenities that you want without having to struggle to make a difficult reservation/exchange. You can swim in pools that aren’t overflowing with children. You can dine in fine restaurants.

And there isn’t anything to pass on to your children other than increasing maintenance fees and all of the complexities and inconveniences that goes with a TS. You want to give your children something valuable? Put your TS “investment” monies in a college fund or give it to your children as a down payment for a home.

The “points” you get if you trade in your week don’t equal what you could get for less than the yearly maintenance fees.

I won’t put anyone down because they have a different opinion on this subject. To each their own. But I do believe that those who favor purchasing TSs from Marriott are living in a parallel universe or they are Marriott reps. [I'm a Star Trek fan.]

 

[thinze3]

I bought a developer week AFTER buying resale for the points. I was given great advice here by many (Brian knows a lot I'm sure he'll chime in)...

I did the same! I bought aiohai resale and then bought Legend's Edge retail.

I would not by Hawaii from Marriott due to the high MF's and the low amount of points offered. I did by Legend's Edge as it offered 100K points every year and lower MF's (also I can drive to it).

Although unlikely, I would buy again from Marriott if the incentives and points were high enough to make it worthwhile.


Terry

 

[sandesurf]

Wow, a debate! LOL

I admit, I can see the benefit of points. It's just that we've seen the value and the availability decline over the past 10 years. I totally agree, I don't want to always stay in timeshares, and love a good resort, but those too can be rented in economical ways.

What I don't agree with is that there are "other" benefits that we lost out on by buying resale. Keeping in mind that we bought our first one through the developer. We are able to leave both Marriotts and the other few of our resales to our children.

Something just came to mind though...Can you leave a point account to an heir? I don't think so. Sure, they can accumulate their own, by turning in the timeshare for points after they become the owners (if you bought from developer) but the left over points don't go with them. At least this is what I've understood. Anyone want to enlighten me?

 

[kjd]

Let me make this simple for all of the bean counters to understand. I took four vacations in the last year. Some domestic and some overseas. Had I paid for lodging I would have paid a total of $12,193 for 41 nights. That's about $291 per night. Not an unreasonable rate considering overseas travel and staying in Marriotts.

I used points and a couple of trades to cover the 41 nights so my MF plus II costs were about $2,200. That's a difference of about $10,000 that I did not pay.

The difference between direct purchase price and the resale price of the traded units is about $19,600. Previous and planned travel has exceeded that difference and I still own the units and I still am able to use points.

The lost opportunity cost is meaningless because I could have easily lost money over the last eight years. In 2000 the NASDAQ was 5,000. It's below 2,500 today. Anyway, it's not about money.

 

[Dave M]

Can you leave a point account to an heir?

Only if the heir is your "legal spouse or partner". The Marriott Rewards T&C prohibit other transfers at death. However, there have been some anecdotal reports at FlyerTalk.com that Marriott might allow transfers to other heirs if the specific bequest is included in the will or trust document of the deceased.

Best advice is to use your points - early and often. Not using them risks constant devaluation and the loss of any remaining points at death.

 

[cwtkm3]

Travel Packages

As we're based in the UK we fully appreciate the points benefits. We didn't know about TUG and bought direct but at least two of the resorts were at the pre-construction stage.

So far we've had two travel packages which has taken us to Australia (sufficient points for 2 return flights, 1 leg in biz class on Qantas so a fab lie flat massaging bed!) and two Sydney Harbour Marriott hotel rooms for 7 nights. (5 of us so paid for kids flights.)

Have just booked two biz class seats from Heathrow to LAX for hubbie and me and paid for the kids to fly in economy. The cost of the biz class seats alone is over $10,000!

Still have the hotel portions to use but am thinking of squashing four of us into one hotel room next Easter as 16 yr old not coming. Have booked Portugal but may swap it for a UK based hotel nearer the time.

That still leaves one unused cert which Marriott will allow us to renew once it's close to expiry.

So I'm very pro points as can see the long term benefits. If we'd saved the money by buying re-sale it would be long spent on something like a car and personally I'd rather have expensive holidays!

 

[Valleykat]

I am sorry if anyone was offended by my post. In our case, it was ignorance, or lack of knowledge, that led us to buy developer rather than resale. I shouldn't have implied that I spoke for others. We are relatively new owners and for us the points have not benefited us yet. They may in time. One problem we have had is that we have wanted to use Marriott hotels for one or two night stays and you really get ripped off using points that way. You really need to stay a full week for the points value to be at all comparable to what you traded them for, at least in our experience.

 

[Lawlar]

I love Beans

Let me make this simple for all of the bean counters to understand. I took four vacations in the last year. Some domestic and some overseas. Had I paid for lodging I would have paid a total of $12,193 for 41 nights. That's about $291 per night. Not an unreasonable rate considering overseas travel and staying in Marriotts.

I used points and a couple of trades to cover the 41 nights so my MF plus II costs were about $2,200. That's a difference of about $10,000 that I did not pay.

The difference between direct purchase price and the resale price of the traded units is about $19,600. Previous and planned travel has exceeded that difference and I still own the units and I still am able to use points.

The lost opportunity cost is meaningless because I could have easily lost money over the last eight years. In 2000 the NASDAQ was 5,000. It's below 2,500 today. Anyway, it's not about money.

I love a good debate.

I have over 700,000 points. But I’ve spent a lot of money over the years with Marriott and on my Visa card to get there. Dave M busted my bubble when he explained to me, accurately, that those 700,000 points have little cash value.

Now if I exchange my one week in Maui (probably rental value of $3,500) I will get 135,000 points. A week at one of Marriott’s nicest hotels costs 150,000 points. When you consider my $657 a month TS payment, my $1,700 maintenance fee (going up to $2,000 next year), no way are my payments going to result in any kind of savings if I exchange them for points that are the equivalent to one week in a hotel room. No one makes money acumalating points. I would be interested in how much it really cost you for those points you spent for your vacation.

Yeah, I’m a bean counter. That is how we paid off our mortgage and funded our retirement. Most successful people focus on saving not spending.

For you free market capitalists out there, I would suggest that the best way to determine the true value of a TS is to look at the market. The true market resale value for a TS is dramatically less than the price Marriott sells their units for. The actual market rental value for many TSs is less than the yearly maintenance fee [Thank goodness – I’m renting one week at Timber Lodge in December for $299 – one bedroom / full kitchen / fireplace – The maintenance fee for owners is $700.]

The only reason Marriott can get thier outrageous prices is because of their use of their high-pressure, less than honest, sales force

Yes, you could have invested in the Nasdaq at 5,000 and feel really bad about it today (most bean counters knew better than to invest at the top). But frankly, after buying a TS from Marriott, I feel just like someone who invested in the Nasdaq at 5,000 when I consider how big a loss I would take if I sold my TS (if I could find a buyer, and so far no one listing a Lahaina Villa unit on RedWeek has been able to find a buyer, even at reduced prices).

 

[LisaRex]

I'm a Westin owner and am *thinking* about buying a Marriott TS closer to home. I have two major gripes with the Starwood system and wanted to know if Marriott was similar:

1) Starwood does not adjust the conversion ratio to keep up with the award chart inflation. 2 years ago, the 80k hotel points that my 2 bdrm villa converts to used to buy a week anywhere in the world. That same 80k StarPoints will only buy 2-3 days at the highest category hotels today. So as time goes by, and MFs increase, people who want to convert to hotel points get less value.

Does Marriott adjust the conversion ratio to keep up with inflation?

2) I bought an OF villa in Hawaii for a steep (resale) purchase price. However, my MFs and StarOptions value (internal trading currency) are identical to every other unit, no matter if they're OV or IV. So the extra money I paid for the OF unit goes out the window whenver I go anywhere but my home resort. If I trade anywhere else, I lose my great view. So just about anything I trade to is a "step down" for me.

Does Marriott give OF/OV owners any bonus when trading, such as additional MRs or the right to preserve the view when they trade to other Marriott properties?

If the answer to both is "no" then that gives me added incentive to buy resale vs. from the developer. I live in Ohio the rest of the year (have pity on me!), so when i go on vacation I want the best view available. And the way the systems are set up penalizes OF owners when they trade. If Starwood/Marriott won't give any additional incentives for folks giving up an OF villa, I'd rather book my week and rent it out or direct exchange it vs. trying to trade it. And, quite frankly, either is a hassle.

 

[JimC]

People buy direct for different reasons. I can come up with 7 easily:

1. Brand new resort just open up for sale
2. High demand fixed week
3. Special deals, such as the 50/50 program
4. MRPs given at closing
5. MRP trade option
6. Convenience
7. Financing

Each purchaser must evaluate the offer according to their own needs. Items 1 - 4 could be persuasive for me; while 5 - 7 are not. Others may very well reach a different conclusion.

 

[Lawlar]

No bonus for view

Does Marriott give OF/OV owners any bonus when trading, such as additional MRs or the right to preserve the view when they trade to other Marriott properties?

Nope. We haven't been offered any special preference when we made our trade. [Lockoff at Maui only got us a lockoff at Timberlode - no special view or upgrade] Maybe if we were more experienced and knowlegeable at exchaning we could have gotten a better deal - Other TUGGERS are much more Knowledgeable about that.

If we traded our oceanfront unit we would suffer a major trade down.

 

[potchak]

We bought our first 2/3 timeshares (2 EOYs and 1 EY)directly from Marriott and 1 resale, and I am a bean counter too. Although, we somewhat regret purchasing our Waiohai EOY direct, we do not regret the Timberlodge EOY or the MMC that we bought direct. We got 300K points with which we booked a cruise on ($2000 value, not the best use of points, but it let us be able to book it, we wouldn't have otherwise.) But, we have every intention of using our points for a cat 6 package, 250K pts, to get 1st class airfare and possibly a week in a cat 6 hotel in Hawaii. The 1st class airfare alone is worth $5K for the two of us, and the cat 6 package is worth another $2-3K depending on the hotel. 1 package will make it worth it to us. And we would be travelling to places that would take us years to save up enough money to go visit, like Europe, Hawaii, etc.

Buying direct seems worth it to us.

 

[thinze3]

I'm a Westin owner and am *thinking* about buying a Marriott TS closer to home. I have two major gripes with the Starwood system and wanted to know if Marriott was similar:

1) Starwood does not adjust the conversion ratio to keep up with the award chart inflation. 2 years ago, the 80k hotel points that my 2 bdrm villa converts to used to buy a week anywhere in the world. That same 80k StarPoints will only buy 2-3 days at the highest category hotels today. So as time goes by, and MFs increase, people who want to convert to hotel points get less value.

Does Marriott adjust the conversion ratio to keep up with inflation?

No. The same thing is happening to the Marriott rewards points system. Marriott simply raises the clssification of the hotel, requiring more points to book it. Luckily, however. the hotel rental rates have gone up dramatically as well, giving you more bang for the buck.

2) I bought an OF villa in Hawaii for a steep (resale) purchase price. However, my MFs and StarOptions value (internal trading currency) are identical to every other unit, no matter if they're OV or IV. So the extra money I paid for the OF unit goes out the window whenver I go anywhere but my home resort. If I trade anywhere else, I lose my great view. So just about anything I trade to is a "step down" for me.

Does Marriott give OF/OV owners any bonus when trading, such as additional MRs or the right to preserve the view when they trade to other Marriott properties?

No. You lose your view priority when trading your unit. You do usually receive more MR points than than those with lesser views when turning in your unit for points. For instance an OF may get 110,000 points anually, while an OV may get 100,000.

If the answer to both is "no" then that gives me added incentive to buy resale vs. from the developer. I live in Ohio the rest of the year (have pity on me!), so when i go on vacation I want the best view available. And the way the systems are set up penalizes OF owners when they trade. If Starwood/Marriott won't give any additional incentives for folks giving up an OF villa, I'd rather book my week and rent it out or direct exchange it vs. trying to trade it. And, quite frankly, either is a hassle.

I hope this helps.

Terry

 

[gmarine]

Unless your getting a huge amount of incentive points for a developer purchase it makes no sense financially to purchase from the developer strictly based on trading for points. You can purchase 100,000 points per year per couple for $1250 which isnt much more than most resorts maintenance fees. And you dont have an initial layout or 10K or so more than resale.

And if you have to finance the developer purchase it makes it even less attractive. Stick with a resale unless there is that huge amount of incentive points or you absolutely have to have a certain fixed/holiday week which you cant find resale.