Looking to buy Wyndham — Need Advice

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Hello,
I am looking at buying into Wyndham, primarily to stay at Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek in Orlando. We will be travelling at least one week a year and would like the option to be able to stay over Christmas Week in a 2 bedroom, so I recognize that I will need ARP for Bonnet Creek to be able to make these reservations right at 13 months. We currently own (resale) at DVC, but have no experience with timeshares other than that. I’ve extensively read this forum in preparation, and also read the really helpful series of articles on this forum about Wyndham. We would be buying resale, and are primarily looking at ebay or some of the third party brokers. I’ve still got a couple of questions I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around, and would greatly appreciate if anyone can answer them:

1. I recognize that we need ARP. It looks like in addition to buying directly from Bonnet Creek we can also buy Club Wyndham Access points? If I’m understanding the program correctly, those points give us ARP at a ton of resorts including Bonnet Creek, with the only downside being slightly higher maintenance fees? Am I missing something or some other downside?
2. The information on maintenance fees for both Bonnet Creek and CWA seems to be all over the map. I’ve looked at the pinned post in this forum with the maintenance fee chart that has maintenance fees listed for both Bonnet Creek and CWA. Those numbers are different from the maintenance fees listed in various ebay listings and various contracts for sale on third party broker sites. In fact, from listing to listing no two listing ever seems to have the maintenance fees listed at the same amount. They all seem to vary somewhere between $6.50 and $8.50 per 1k points, but it is just so strange to me that every single listing has the maintenance fees at a different amount. Is there some quirk of the system that I am missing that would cause this variability in maintenance fees from contract to contract?

Any other advice for prospective new buyers? Thanks in advance!

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Just as further clarification, the maintenance chart here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1RUiHuxPdShXWp3OM2PiXf1_WDzHiv3Ickz1_o5ssiv4/htmlview#

Has CWA and CWBC maintenance fees at $6.93 and $6.37 respectively. However, this ebay listing here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/3253500664...3qHLUfT/NVkZCjcnRxl7mNiWI=|tkp:Bk9SR6y79PnrYA
Has maintenance fees at $132 per month, which would work out to $7.92 per 1k points per year. What am I missing?

 

[bnoble]

What am I missing?

Maintenance fees are only for upkeep of the specific property you own (for Bonnet Creek), or the properties in the trust (for Access). There is also a Program Fee, which for a resale ownership is the greater of $0.64/K or $165.

(200K * 6.93 + 165)/12 = $129.

The current owner quotes a higher number probably because they bought retail. A retail purchase has program fees of the greater of $0.66/K or $185. That gets you to $131/month

If you only need a 2BR, I am not 100% sure you need ARP, even for Christmas, but I am not sure I can say that definitively. The resort is huge.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Maintenance fees are only for upkeep of the specific property you own (for Bonnet Creek), or the properties in the trust (for Access). There is also a Program Fee, which for a resale ownership is the greater of $0.64/K or $165.

(200K * 6.93 + 165)/12 = $129.

The current owner quotes a higher number probably because they bought retail. A retail purchase has program fees of the greater of $0.66/K or $185. That gets you to $131/month

If you only need a 2BR, I am not 100% sure you need ARP, even for Christmas, but I am not sure I can say that definitively. The resort is huge.

Thank You! Yeah, we definitely want 2 BRs. I am really back and forth on the ARP issue. We travel to Orlando multiple times per year so it’s not like we need to go **every** Christmas, but it would be nice to have the option of staying over some Christmas breaks.

Assuming I come to the conclusion I do want ARP to be safe, is there any other downside to Club Wyndham Access that I am missing other than the higher maintenance fees?

 

[bnoble]

CWA owners do not have voting rights, and Wyndham can recover the "ownership" from owners who are not paying much more easily than for deeded property. Whether those are downsides or not is in the eye of the beholder.

If Christmas is an "It would be nice to do that" rather than "we have to go then regularly" then ARP is less important. If you start thinking that other Wyndham destinations are interesting (because you want to branch out from Orlando eventually), even less.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

CWA owners do not have voting rights, and Wyndham can recover the "ownership" from owners who are not paying much more easily than for deeded property. Whether those are downsides or not is in the eye of the beholder.

If Christmas is an "It would be nice to do that" rather than "we have to go then regularly" then ARP is less important. If you start thinking that other Wyndham destinations are interesting (because you want to branch out from Orlando eventually), even less.

Thanks again. If I forego buying for ARP what resorts would you recommend I look at to get the Best Buy in price / maintenance fees over time deal? Is there any potential downside of not owning at the resort I want to travel to as far as somehow being restricted from staying at Bonnet Creek in the future? That’s the other thing in the back of my mind, that somehow the rules could change, or the resort could be sold and end up in a different association, and then I’m stuck owning at a resort that I have no interest in travelling to. I’m not sure how realistic those fears are.

 

[scootr5]

1. I recognize that we need ARP. It looks like in addition to buying directly from Bonnet Creek we can also buy Club Wyndham Access points? If I’m understanding the program correctly, those points give us ARP at a ton of resorts including Bonnet Creek, with the only downside being slightly higher maintenance fees? Am I missing something or some other downside?

CWA ARP is limited to the total number of points that CWA owns at each resort, which is a mystery. I would think since December is the end of the use year there might be a chance that all of the "available" points for that use year may have already been used up by then.

I think buying a Bonnet Creek contract would be the safest bet, if that is where you predominantly intend to use it in the time frame you indicated.

 

[Pink_Warrior]

You need to think a bit longer range. Maybe Christmas at WBC is your goal for the next few years, but at one point you will want to branch out.

So the powers that be announced that there will be a handy dandy waitlist that you can set up. So that will be a YMMV. Additionally on general reservations, you can add days to the front or back. So there is a way to mold your reservations into something longer. You just cannot slide it.

If you buy WBC, then you have ARP at WBC, so 13 months out. If you buy CWA, again ARP at 13 months out but you have a wider field of locations.

The MF for WBC was always pretty high but then again, CWA isn't cheap either.

In 2015 we were told that if we wanted to stay at WBC we had to own at WBC. So I bought a resale at WBC. Never needed ARP. I have since owned WBC twice now and disposed of both contracts. We used to go to WBC frequently. Now we never go there.

I would look at CWA. Look at the list of included resorts. And CWA "should" be a faster turnaround.

There are a couple of pitfalls to avoid. The UY (use year) of the contract is what it is. That first contract will be the anchor for anything else that you may buy. If you want points in January, buy January. If you don't care, buy any use year but also be mindful when the use year rolls over as eBay as famous for selling a UY and then having closing take so long that those points expire.

Secondly, if buying CWA, apparently ROFR came in sometime mid-2018. So contracts originating after that date are subject to Wyndham taking them back. It is often very difficult to ascertain the original contract date with the seller but that can happen. Will it happen? Meh. But is has.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

You need to think a bit longer range. Maybe Christmas at WBC is your goal for the next few years, but at one point you will want to branch out.

So the powers that be announced that there will be a handy dandy waitlist that you can set up. So that will be a YMMV. Additionally on general reservations, you can add days to the front or back. So there is a way to mold your reservations into something longer. You just cannot slide it.

If you buy WBC, then you have ARP at WBC, so 13 months out. If you buy CWA, again ARP at 13 months out but you have a wider field of locations.

The MF for WBC was always pretty high but then again, CWA isn't cheap either.

In 2015 we were told that if we wanted to stay at WBC we had to own at WBC. So I bought a resale at WBC. Never needed ARP. I have since owned WBC twice now and disposed of both contracts. We used to go to WBC frequently. Now we never go there.

I would look at CWA. Look at the list of included resorts. And CWA "should" be a faster turnaround.

There are a couple of pitfalls to avoid. The UY (use year) of the contract is what it is. That first contract will be the anchor for anything else that you may buy. If you want points in January, buy January. If you don't care, buy any use year but also be mindful when the use year rolls over as eBay as famous for selling a UY and then having closing take so long that those points expire.

Secondly, if buying CWA, apparently ROFR came in sometime mid-2018. So contracts originating after that date are subject to Wyndham taking them back. It is often very difficult to ascertain the original contract date with the seller but that can happen. Will it happen? Meh. But is has.

Thank you for this! With respect to the use year specifically, We plan on travelling the most in the fall /Christmas / late Winter and potentially early Spring. Having done Orlando in the Summer... we will never do that again. I was thinking I should try to target an October Use Year for that reason so that if I have to cancel our trip due to illness (we would buy the points protection for each booking, I have young kids so vacation cancellations due to sickness is a constant risk), then we'd have a chance to still use the points later in the use year. Do you agree with my thinking on that?

Does modifying a reservation like you discuss above require using the booking credits? With Disney Vacation Club we can "walk" (slide) reservations, but it sounds like you can't do that here?

Thanks in advance!

Edit: Also, with these ebay auctions, I read in one of the articles on this forum that it is helpful to ask for an estoppel letter and a warranty deed. Is that something you can generally do with the ebay auctions? I'm a little nervous about buying something on ebay and then finding out it is encumbered after I've already shipped money, or even worse, after I've signed papers.

 

[bnoble]

I’m not sure how realistic those fears are.

My sense is not very.

I'm a little nervous about buying something on ebay

No reason you have to use ebay. You might pay a few dollars more going through some other venue, but so what? The big factor is the closing company, which manages the escrow process. If you buy on ebay, usually the closing company is named by the seller, and is rarely arms-length from the seller. Even so, the vast majority of these transactions go off just fine (I've done it twice), so it is probably fine if you are doing any sort of due diligence on the seller.

If you buy from someone on the TUG marketplace, for example, you can probably choose the closing company. LT Transfers does a good job.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

Thank You! Yeah, we definitely want 2 BRs. I am really back and forth on the ARP issue. We travel to Orlando multiple times per year so it’s not like we need to go **every** Christmas, but it would be nice to have the option of staying over some Christmas breaks.

Assuming I come to the conclusion I do want ARP to be safe, is there any other downside to Club Wyndham Access that I am missing other than the higher maintenance fees?

Welcome to TUG.
It looks like you have done a lot of good research & TUG thread reading prior to starting this thread.

One member who may be able to add information to your inquiry is @cbyrne1174, who regularly stays at Wyndham Bonnet Creek and Reunion
using Wyndham points from lower MF cost resorts. That said : I believe she added a Myrtle Beach location to get ARP at resorts in Myrtle Beach

My thoughts - Buy a large enough point contract at a lower cost MF resort as your initial purchase.
The upside is lower long term annual cost. The downside is that you may need to be making some Bonnet Creek reservations at midnight when the 10 month window opens. If this becomes a problem you could then add either a Bonnet Creek or CWA contract large enough to get Christmas / Peak Seasons.

You may also wish to "Conversion- PM @rickandcindy23 to privately discuss some of the contracts she wishes to let go.
This could give you a "no cost" entry to Wyndham ownership.Here is a thread she stated that has some info:
Selling / Giving Away Wyndham Contracts ( note- advertising of resales conversations need to be done via TUG rules)

Happy vacations

 

[Pink_Warrior]

Thank you for this! With respect to the use year specifically, We plan on travelling the most in the fall /Christmas / late Winter and potentially early Spring. Having done Orlando in the Summer... we will never do that again. I was thinking I should try to target an October Use Year for that reason so that if I have to cancel our trip due to illness (we would buy the points protection for each booking, I have young kids so vacation cancellations due to sickness is a constant risk), then we'd have a chance to still use the points later in the use year. Do you agree with my thinking on that?

Does modifying a reservation like you discuss above require using the booking credits? With Disney Vacation Club we can "walk" (slide) reservations, but it sounds like you can't do that here?

Thanks in advance!

Edit: Also, with these ebay auctions, I read in one of the articles on this forum that it is helpful to ask for an estoppel letter and a warranty deed. Is that something you can generally do with the ebay auctions? I'm a little nervous about buying something on ebay and then finding out it is encumbered after I've already shipped money, or even worse, after I've signed papers.

October UY might be a good fit for you. You have the ability to deposit your points one or two years forward. You have to do this by the end of the third month of the UY.

Modifying a reservation does not take a reservation transaction. And unlike DVC, there is no walking a reservation

I would look on eBay or Redweek. Both platforms will have sellers who know what they are selling as well as sellers who haven't got a clue. You typically can't pay for a real estate listing with Paypal anyway.

You should be able to get an estoppel from the seller but not a warranty deed as that is a filed document. The estoppel will tell you use year and points available. If you see that there are many more points available it will most likely be that the seller is not disposing of all contracts. If there are banked points, Wyndham will take those. And you want to see that there is no loan and no arrearages in maintenance fee payments.

And if you haven't learned, Wyndham will award one reservation transaction (RT) for every 77,000 points. They will award one housekeeping credit (HK) for every 70,000 points. Lately Wyndham has been "generous" and removing the RT requirement. But you can never count on Wyndham's generosity.

Reaching out to RickandCindy is a pretty good idea. She wants to lighten her load.

On TUG there is also a "Free timeshare giveaways and bargain deals" section under timeshares. To transfer a Wyndham contract they require $299. Someone else can do deed prep or sales agreement work. CWA would be cheapest as there is no deed to file. This should cost maybe $200.

There are many (but not all) very well-versed owners on TUG. Most will have no problem at all with a private message with questions. Afterall, we all started somewhere.

 

[bnoble]

I would not put too much stock in getting a particular UY. Non-January UYs are uncommon, and Wyndham has in the past changed UYs of existing deeds for a variety of reasons---often to January.

Yes, there are only three months in which a non-VIP owner can bank points forward, and reservations cancelled late the UY can't be banked. But they can always be sent to RCI, which gives you (at least) two more years to use them. RCI can provide some very good trades to Wyndham owners.

 

[cbyrne1174]

Hello,
I am looking at buying into Wyndham, primarily to stay at Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek in Orlando. We will be travelling at least one week a year and would like the option to be able to stay over Christmas Week in a 2 bedroom, so I recognize that I will need ARP for Bonnet Creek to be able to make these reservations right at 13 months. We currently own (resale) at DVC, but have no experience with timeshares other than that. I’ve extensively read this forum in preparation, and also read the really helpful series of articles on this forum about Wyndham. We would be buying resale, and are primarily looking at ebay or some of the third party brokers. I’ve still got a couple of questions I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around, and would greatly appreciate if anyone can answer them:

1. I recognize that we need ARP. It looks like in addition to buying directly from Bonnet Creek we can also buy Club Wyndham Access points? If I’m understanding the program correctly, those points give us ARP at a ton of resorts including Bonnet Creek, with the only downside being slightly higher maintenance fees? Am I missing something or some other downside?
2. The information on maintenance fees for both Bonnet Creek and CWA seems to be all over the map. I’ve looked at the pinned post in this forum with the maintenance fee chart that has maintenance fees listed for both Bonnet Creek and CWA. Those numbers are different from the maintenance fees listed in various ebay listings and various contracts for sale on third party broker sites. In fact, from listing to listing no two listing ever seems to have the maintenance fees listed at the same amount. They all seem to vary somewhere between $6.50 and $8.50 per 1k points, but it is just so strange to me that every single listing has the maintenance fees at a different amount. Is there some quirk of the system that I am missing that would cause this variability in maintenance fees from contract to contract?

Any other advice for prospective new buyers? Thanks in advance!

You know how most of the Animal Kingdom Lodge inventory is in Kidani Village? Bonnet Creek is the same with with deeded vs Club Wyndham Access. About 3/4 of the Bonnet Creek inventory is still deeded to Bonnet Creek and only 1/4 of Bonnet Creek inventory is deeded to Access. I would not get Access if you want BC inventory. It's not like DVC. I can book 2 bedrooms EVERY SINGLE YEAR during Thanksgiving week at the 10 month mark. I don't pay attention to Christmas inventory at exactly 10 months but I can honestly say anytime I've been online to book 10 months out, everything was available except 3 bedrooms and presidentials. If you are flexible with going during thanksgiving week instead, you could get your room at half the cost of Christmas and still have access to the Christmas decorations at WDW. That's why I've personally never checked Christmas week inventory. That week isn't worth 2x as much to me.

Also if you are flexible about when you go to Orlando, you may want to just learn to utilize the "Getaways" on your Interval International account with your DVC membership if you are okay with Marriotts and Sheratons. I was able to get Marriott's Lakeshore Reserve for $350/week in a studio this Thanksgiving week and I let my coworkers use my account to get themselves a 1 bedroom at Marriott's Grande Vista for $370/week Thanksgiving week. I also booked a 2 bedroom at Marriott's Harbour Lake during Labor Day weekend for $400/week. All of those were done through my Disney account.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

You know how most of the Animal Kingdom Lodge inventory is in Kidani Village? Bonnet Creek is the same with with deeded vs Club Wyndham Access. About 3/4 of the Bonnet Creek inventory is still deeded to Bonnet Creek and only 1/4 of Bonnet Creek inventory is deeded to Access. I would not get Access if you want BC inventory. It's not like DVC. I can book 2 bedrooms EVERY SINGLE YEAR during Thanksgiving week at the 10 month mark. I don't pay attention to Christmas inventory at exactly 10 months but I can honestly say anytime I've been online to book 10 months out, everything was available except 3 bedrooms and presidentials. If you are flexible with going during thanksgiving week instead, you could get your room at half the cost of Christmas and still have access to the Christmas decorations at WDW. That's why I've personally never checked Christmas week inventory. That week isn't worth 2x as much to me.

Also if you are flexible about when you go to Orlando, you may want to just learn to utilize the "Getaways" on your Interval International account with your DVC membership if you are okay with Marriotts and Sheratons. I was able to get Marriott's Lakeshore Reserve for $350/week in a studio this Thanksgiving week and I let my coworkers use my account to get themselves a 1 bedroom at Marriott's Grande Vista for $370/week Thanksgiving week. I also booked a 2 bedroom at Marriott's Harbour Lake during Labor Day weekend for $400/week. All of those were done through my Disney account.

Thank you for explaining it in DVC terms, that helped. We do also love staying at Sheraton Vistana (just not quite as much as Bonnet Creek). I’ll admit I still have not quite figured out the whole RCI / Interval International thing at all. Any resources you could point me to that explain how the exchanges work?

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I would not put too much stock in getting a particular UY. Non-January UYs are uncommon, and Wyndham has in the past changed UYs of existing deeds for a variety of reasons---often to January.

Yes, there are only three months in which a non-VIP owner can bank points forward, and reservations cancelled late the UY can't be banked. But they can always be sent to RCI, which gives you (at least) two more years to use them. RCI can provide some very good trades to Wyndham owners.

Thank you, this was really helpful.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Thank you to everyone who has posted in this thread!

 

[cbyrne1174]

Thank you for explaining it in DVC terms, that helped. We do also love staying at Sheraton Vistana (just not quite as much as Bonnet Creek). I’ll admit I still have not quite figured out the whole RCI / Interval International thing at all. Any resources you could point me to that explain how the exchanges work?

I made a video about it last summer and posted it to Youtube. Here you go:

Some of the other videos I made might help with understanding Wyndham resale.

 

[ronparise]

FYI
weeks 43 -50 require far less points than week 51 and 52 ( a 2 bedroom week 50 is half the cost of week 52

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I made a video about it last summer and posted it to Youtube. Here you go:

Some of the other videos I made might help with understanding Wyndham resale.

This is awesome, thank you!

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I made a video about it last summer and posted it to Youtube. Here you go:

Some of the other videos I made might help with understanding Wyndham resale.

I watched your video. One quick question: when booking those “getaways” is there a way to purchase trip insurance through interval? Or are you aware if regular trip insurance companies that will cover? I know that trip insurance for timeshare rentals can be really iffy. I went through a mock booking for a getaway on interval but there didn’t appear to be any option to buy trip insurance through them as part of the booking process. I have a 7 and a 3 year old so the possibility of someone waking up with the flu the day before a trip is an ever present possibility.

 

[cbyrne1174]

I watched your video. One quick question: when booking those “getaways” is there a way to purchase trip insurance through interval? Or are you aware if regular trip insurance companies that will cover? I know that trip insurance for timeshare rentals can be really iffy. I went through a mock booking for a getaway on interval but there didn’t appear to be any option to buy trip insurance through them as part of the booking process. I have a 7 and a 3 year old so the possibility of someone waking up with the flu the day before a trip is an ever present possibility.

Not that I know of, but if you factor in price vs probability then you will still be ahead using getaways vs. paying hotel rates.

 

[HitchHiker71]

You know how most of the Animal Kingdom Lodge inventory is in Kidani Village? Bonnet Creek is the same with with deeded vs Club Wyndham Access. About 3/4 of the Bonnet Creek inventory is still deeded to Bonnet Creek and only 1/4 of Bonnet Creek inventory is deeded to Access. I would not get Access if you want BC inventory. It's not like DVC. I can book 2 bedrooms EVERY SINGLE YEAR during Thanksgiving week at the 10 month mark. I don't pay attention to Christmas inventory at exactly 10 months but I can honestly say anytime I've been online to book 10 months out, everything was available except 3 bedrooms and presidentials. If you are flexible with going during thanksgiving week instead, you could get your room at half the cost of Christmas and still have access to the Christmas decorations at WDW. That's why I've personally never checked Christmas week inventory. That week isn't worth 2x as much to me.

Also if you are flexible about when you go to Orlando, you may want to just learn to utilize the "Getaways" on your Interval International account with your DVC membership if you are okay with Marriotts and Sheratons. I was able to get Marriott's Lakeshore Reserve for $350/week in a studio this Thanksgiving week and I let my coworkers use my account to get themselves a 1 bedroom at Marriott's Grande Vista for $370/week Thanksgiving week. I also booked a 2 bedroom at Marriott's Harbour Lake during Labor Day weekend for $400/week. All of those were done through my Disney account.

Building on what Chris said above, below is the breakdown of CWA vs CWS as of 2019 for BC resort - it likely hasn't changed much since 2019 but I cannot say for sure, but as of 2019 - BC CWA owned exactly 27.88% of the resort inventory. What this chart doesn't show, is exactly what inventory is owned by CWA vs CWS - as this data really isn't available even in the POS documentation that this chart is based upon. As a general rule, if you decide that ARP at BC is important, it's likely best to go with a BC CWS contract. If ARP isn't important, then it really doesn't matter what you buy since you'll only be making reservations in the SRP window at which time points are points (with a few exceptions like MVC and PR inventory allotments). Chances are you can probably find a two bedroom unit right at 10 months even for Christmas - since you don't need a larger unit (3 or 4 bedroom) - especially at BC since it's a huge resort. At pretty much every resort, there's a lot of competition for the larger units - since there aren't many of them - so ARP is oftentimes required to reserve a larger unit- especially over holidays or during prime seasons. Happy hunting!

 

[rickandcindy23]

If a person owns at Wyndham Orlando International Resort, or whatever it's called, does that give you ARP to Bonnet Creek? Is it in the same club for ARP?

I am just wondering because I do have access to the Kauai resorts ahead of everyone else as an owner of Bali Hai and Shearwater.

 

[Melder]

View attachment 65388

Interesting Chart. Do you have Grand Desert in your list?