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Looking to buy a TS in Orlando

mianmike

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First post on TUG. Wow! What a resource. I’m blow away by the knowledge base and the willingness of members to share their expertise.

Sorry if my post seems disjointed, I have a million questions, but will start with a few. I am beginning to make some assumptions and would like some feedback from some experienced Tuggers. My wife and I are looking to buy our first timeshare. We really weren’t planning on buying a timeshare, but given the depressed market it seems like we can’t afford not to.

We love to travel. We are not wealthy by any means, so we look for the best bang for our buck. Anyway, we currently live in Arizona. We plan to move to Florida in 7 years. We’re looking to buy a timeshare in Orlando. It would be nice to have a base to stay at when we are vacationing in Florida and later when we are building our house. I read somewhere that Orlando was overbuilt and thus the trading value was not as valuable as other places. It seems to me that points level the playing field vs. week exchanges and thus the location is not as important to the exchange value?

Given the recent events, i.e. DVC leaving II and RCI “improving” their point system, it seems relying on an exchange to enhance your TS value is not what it once was. So, would I be correct in assuming that a good option would be to buy a Hilton Grand Vacations Club resale or some Wyndham Bonnet Creek points and thus would not have to so heavily rely on exchanges by also exchanging through HGVC or Wyndham? Is this a valuable perk? I ask as I’m not really sure if resale point owners are treated the same when booking through HGVC or Wyndham.

Looking on Ebay, Wyndham points seem to be a better value (lower upfront cost) than Hilton properties. Am I missing something? I realize MF's are critical to the cost and we are looking at those. I know Wyndham has no ROFR and thus the $ value is definitely not an investment. Is Hilton worth the extra money? On the other hand, am I completely off base thinking Hilton and Wyndham are good buys?

Anyone have experience with Hilton and/or Wyndham? (I’ve purposely left off Marriott as we are Disney fans and the possibility of trading into DVC will surely sucker us into an RCI affiliated resort) ;)
 

UWSurfer

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A quick couple of notes:

First, WELCOME TO TUG!!!

Second, Don't be in a hurry to buy. The resale market has been pretty amazing lately, but at least with HGVC, ROFR is still active and while the threshold appears to be a bit lower, it's not so much that I'd rush out.

ORLANDO has tons of TS. You might want to spend the $15 for TUG membership which gets you into the resort reviews and database. You can then see what Tugger's have said about these resorts, their rankings and affliations pretty easily to help you decide. It was the best $15 I ever spent!

I can't tell you anything about Wyndham except we exchanged in once with our HGVC points through RCI in Nashville. We've been very happy with HGVC, it's system and flexibility. We have a 3 bdrm unit booked for the upcoming spring break in Orlando at the I-drive property which we did using our points from two Las Vegas weeks. We also paid the most for the HGVC weeks and MF's do add up.

I own another week which is in RCI Points at a non-HGVC property we bought, also in Vegas, and was able to book HGVC with it. If you are not concerned about staying in a popular time (ie: spring break) and can be flexible, it would seem the deals are to buy a less expensive week with lower maintenance fee's and exchange it for someplace you'd like to stay. The positive to this is you save money. The downside is it's more complicated and can be more effort than simply booking from within the HGVC system, as we can do with HGVC points.

Also note, HGVC's in Las Vegas state they enforce the 1:4 rule for RCI exchanges. 1:4 meaning you can exchange into that specific resort only once in a 4 year period.

The overriding rule however is to buy where you would be happy to stay. At the end of the day circumstances may prevent you from exchanging it and your only recourse could be to use it.

My own personal rule is to buy places you can drive to...which I've stuck with except for our week in Maui.:D
 

mianmike

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Thanks for the enlightening reply!

I do like the idea of being able to drive to our TS and Las Vegas would fit the bill. I am also looking at that option. I am trying not to rush into a purchase, but I am getting excited! It's getting harder everyday. Waiting to see if HGVC properties come down in price might be enough to keep me from pulling the trigger. :)

I am a new member of TUG and have been using the TS rating guide. What a great resource! I also look at Trip Advisor for a slightly different point of view.

Also note, HGVC's in Las Vegas state they enforce the 1:4 rule for RCI exchanges. 1:4 meaning you can exchange into that specific resort only once in a 4 year period.

Is this 1:4 rule unique to Vegas, or do all HGVC properties have this requirement?
 

Bill4728

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Buying into a Mini-system ( like Hilton, Wyndham, Starwood, Diamond, VRI or Worldmark plus many others) is a good idea. With these mini systems you can buy one resort ( like one in AZ or Vegas) and go to any of the systems many different resorts without having to "trade" via the big exchange companies.

But I'd hold off buying untill you more fully look into your options. Buying a TS is very easy and cheap ( if you buy resale) but selling a TS you don't want can be hard. So take your time.

Welcome to TUG

PS the 1:4 rule is only in RCI and seen in many different areas and isn't unique to Vegas. It is often associated with a single resort system. So you can't go to any of the 3 HGVC Orlando TSs more than once every 4 years, but you can go to one of the many other TS in Orlando
 
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mianmike

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Thanks Bill.

But I'd hold off buying untill you more fully look into your options. Buying a TS is very easy and cheap ( if you buy resale) but selling a TS you don't want can be hard. So take your time.

Words to live by. My learning curve is pretty steep right now. So many variables to consider. Thanks for the help!
 
M

Montague

Hi friend, and welcome to TUG, hope you have a great fun here ! Keep posting nice threads.
 

timeos2

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Tough to beat Wyndham for selection and value at resale pricing

We love to travel. We are not wealthy by any means, so we look for the best bang for our buck. Anyway, we currently live in Arizona. We plan to move to Florida in 7 years. We’re looking to buy a timeshare in Orlando. It would be nice to have a base to stay at when we are vacationing in Florida and later when we are building our house. I read somewhere that Orlando was overbuilt and thus the trading value was not as valuable as other places. It seems to me that points level the playing field vs. week exchanges and thus the location is not as important to the exchange value?

Looking on Ebay, Wyndham points seem to be a better value (lower upfront cost) than Hilton properties. Am I missing something? I realize MF's are critical to the cost and we are looking at those. I know Wyndham has no ROFR and thus the $ value is definitely not an investment. Is Hilton worth the extra money? On the other hand, am I completely off base thinking Hilton and Wyndham are good buys?

Anyone have experience with Hilton and/or Wyndham? (I’ve purposely left off Marriott as we are Disney fans and the possibility of trading into DVC will surely sucker us into an RCI affiliated resort) ;)

It would be hard to find a better value than Wyndham points at resale price. You can easily find them at $.01-.02 and then you have access to one of the largest multi-resort systems going. Plus you can use all of their many Orlando locations, then as your travel tastes expand easily get many others without needing to leave the easy to use FSP system and, when even that isn't enough, have access to all of RCI (paid in your annual fees) with request first rights to assure you get what you really want.

Tough to beat that value. While I do prefer to buy within driving distance of home with Wyndham points that isn't as important as a point is a point no matter where it is based. The Hilton system is also very good but doesn't have many internal resorts thus leaving you dependent on trades (and those costs) when you wish to leave the limited locations they offer. Plus the fees and purchase cost tend to be higher than Wyndham's.

I think you are on the right path to strongly consider Wyndham as your primary timeshare purchase. Good luck!
 

mianmike

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Thanks for excellent input John.

We’ve been looking at The Hilton Resorts, but like you, think the limited number of resorts make Wyndham an attractive alternative. Couple that with the low price for Wyndham points, I’m thinking it may be the way to go. Buying through EBay seems like a good deal, but after analyzing past auctions I’m learning it is going to take some serious due diligence on our part to make sure we’re getting what we paid for. For instance, I saw an auction for the Wyndham in Flagstaff where it appeared to be a great deal. 182,000 points was sold for $413.00. Looking on the TUG resort rating page I see that the Wyndham Flagstaff resort is not in the RCI points system. I’m confused as to why it would not be under the point system. One would think that Wyndham points would convert to RCI points and thus the resort would fall under the points system? I don’t know if the Ebay ad was wrong and the Flagstaff resort is actually under the weeks program. So I have a lot to learn. Thank God for TUG.

Another consideration for us with regards to the Flagstaff resort is usability. It is two hours from our home, but I doubt we’d ever go there. Vegas would be a better alternative . . . although in the long run much more expensive.:)

We’re thinking of buying in Florida as we plan to move there (in 7 years) and it would allow us a place to stay while house hunting/building prep work and once we live there would give us a place for friends and relatives to stay when coming to visit.
 

vacationhopeful

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Wyndham points is NOT RCI points.

You deposit a number of Wyndham points into RCI as a "week" which Wyndham selects for you. You then use RCI Weeks to do RCI trades. PLUS PARTNERS is another Wyndham "product" which is NOT included with a resale transaction ... but you can buy into it for around $5,000 (which talks about using Wyndham Points for RCI nightly stays - but the math might not be better than booking a hotel room for a night or two).

An overbuilt location (ie Orlando) has availability on Last Call (RCI), Resort Specials (Wyndham's version), etc ... buying there is good only for "Home Resort" advantage or a fixed week (like week 52) which you would always WANT to use. Many Tuggers buy Florida fixed beach weeks in winter months as they become parttime Snowbirds.

Welcome to TUG! Rent a few timeshares and learn more before spending $$$ for a mini-system or a product you might not like.
 

UWSurfer

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Back to HGVC for a moment (as I don't know Wyndham)...

Your reasoning for buying Florida is a reasonable as using it for a temporary landing place while looking, building and having a place designated for guests.

HGVC is extremely flexible with many options, which make it a bit complicated to wrap your mind around while learning the system. It's rules will be different from each of any other mini-systems you look at, so again the advice would be to figure out where you want to buy, identify a couple of properities or systems and learn the ins and outs.

Something to consider about HGVC is all but a tiny few weeks are floating weeks. Therefore the only real advantage to owning any given HGVC developed property over exchaging in with their internal system is you get to book your home resort for the exact unit/season you own with a 12 month lead time. If you want to book someplace else or a unit which isn't what you own, you get to book no early than 9 months out from your stay.

So with my Las Vegas weeks I was able to book a three bedroom unit during spring break in Orlando using HGVC's internal system and the points my weeks are valued at. Points are the same in the HGVC system so I can use them in any HGVC property, provided they have availability. You can also book fractional weeks (3 or 4 day minimum) depending on the type of stay (I won't go in to that here) and they also have something called "open season" where un-booked inventory can be rented for cash up to 30 days prior to check-in at deeply discounted rates by members. There's a lot more including ablity to convert HGVC points in to Hiltons HHonors points to book Hilton & Hilton family brand hotels, booking into RCI properties, and some other features which we've talked about on the HGVC board.

IF you seriously look at HGVC, you could buy either Las Vegas or Orlando and basically use your points to stay at either. LV tends to have a bit lower maintenance fee's than Orlando these days...but the difference is not to great. Note that HGVC has seasons for it's weeks and the Platinum weeks are worth more points for the same size unit (say a 1 bdrm) than a Gold week is for the same unit. There are also some Silver and even bronze points you'll stumble on from time to time on ebay. So Platinum weeks are usually the best value BECAUSE maintenance fee's are based on the size of the unit...not the season. So everyone pays the same maintenace fee who owns a 1 bdrm at a given property regardless what season, and therefore how many points that unit is worth. The two types you will see most often are platinum and gold weeks. Platinum used to go for around $2/point and Gold used to go for around $1.50 a point. We're now seeing some discounting for gold, some passing at a little under a $1/point, but HGVC does maintain an ROFR and uses it depending on the price level and their desire for certain inventory. (It's cheaper for them to reacquire than build when the price is right).

For more info, read through the HGVC board where most of this has been discussed many times over and where there are very experienced folks who can answer any questions you may have about that system.
 
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mianmike

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Thanks Linda…

That clears some things up, but opens up a question. So Wyndham points don’t convert to RCI. That is a minus for me because I like the idea points, as there is no mystery as to how RCI rates its worth and I like the idea of fractional stays. With weeks it seems difficult to determine just how RCI values the week in relation to where you are wanting to go. I’m confused as to how Wyndham selects THE week that will be entered into RCI. Is it your experience that Wyndham chooses a week that is valuable enough to get the trades you’re looking for?

Can you use points to book a hotel stay at a Wyndham brand hotel or is that part of the "Plus Partners" program?

Also, do you feel if we bought a TS in another town we would still be able to book Bonnet Creek without too much difficulty? It seems that buying a property witha low MF is a VERY strong consideration.
 

mianmike

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Thanks for the great post UWsurfer.

So Platinum weeks are usually the best value BECAUSE maintenance fee's are based on the size of the unit...not the season. So everyone pays the same maintenace fee who owns a 1 bdrm at a given property regardless what season, and therefore how many points that unit is worth.

Great to know! I just started a spreadsheet to track maintenance fees relative to point values.

There's a lot more including ablity to convert HGVC points in to Hiltons HHonors points to book Hilton & Hilton family brand hotels, booking into RCI properties, and some other features which we've talked about on the HGVC board.

I like that feature! Opens up a lot of opportunities. Do you feel you get a decent value when using points for a hotel stay? Do I understand correctly that you can convert HGVC points to RCI points or a reasonable facsimile?

I've been reading the HGVC board and will be asking some questions over there. Thanks.
 

timeos2

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Thanks Linda…

That clears some things up, but opens up a question. So Wyndham points don’t convert to RCI. That is a minus for me because I like the idea points, as there is no mystery as to how RCI rates its worth and I like the idea of fractional stays. With weeks it seems difficult to determine just how RCI values the week in relation to where you are wanting to go. I’m confused as to how Wyndham selects THE week that will be entered into RCI. Is it your experience that Wyndham chooses a week that is valuable enough to get the trades you’re looking for?

Can you use points to book a hotel stay at a Wyndham brand hotel or is that part of the "Plus Partners" program?

Also, do you feel if we bought a TS in another town we would still be able to book Bonnet Creek without too much difficulty? It seems that buying a property witha low MF is a VERY strong consideration.

You are not at the mercy of unknown values using FSP points to trade in RCI weeks. They have "request first" meaning you get the week you want and then give them the number of points it requires. Plus, with so many internal resorts comapred to most other mini-systems, you don't have to go outside of the FSP system very often to use RCI. Plenty to learn, huh?
 

vacationhopeful

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Wyndham has a table for size of unit and one of three seasons. RCI Weeks has 3 seasons also and different size unit , too.;) The Wyndham people argue to deposit what you want to search/book (quiet/blue studio is 28,000 Wyndham Points up to a 3 bdr high/red is 254,000 Wyndham Points). Playing with the RCI Weeks search online you can learn to deposit fewer points and still get the larger size unit with a small point deposit. I got a 3bdr/2bath spring break unit 2010 with a 28,000 Wyndham Point deposit. A 3 bdr Prime unit at Bonnet Creek would set you back 308,000 Wyndham points. Oh, the 2010 spring break week was 1 mile from Disneyland.:D

Hotel stays ==> Plus Partners.

As for partial week stays outside of Wyndham Points reservations - many experenced TSers will leave early off an exchange week - 3 nights in a 2 bdr condo is still cheaper than paying for 2 motel rooms for 3 nights using a cheap trade ... My math skills have improved while owning TSs; however, only fellow Tuggers know what base or currency I use.

Bonnet Creek is a pretty resort (stayed there myself, don't own there). But as you learn more about timesharing in general you will learn another term ... point inflation, where the newer resorts cost MORE points to book (and therefore cost more in MFs to stay there). Star Island (Wyndham points and fixed week resort, but NOT managed by Wyndham), just 3 miles further away from Disney, has 3 bdr Prime unit costing 224,000 Wyndham points (just 73% the points which translate to about $475 CHEAPER in MF over Bonnet Creek). Wyndham has other Orlando area resorts also. Booking at Bonnet Creek is NOT what I follow; don't have school age kids; lots of units there, still building & bad economy as to fewer vacationers.:doh:

I truly suggest you stay at several different resorts BEFORE you buy. If MF costs are your biggest concern, so be it. If quality, new and pretty are your top priority, buy for that reason. I have found what resorts make me happy and for what reasons --- you and your wife need to uncover your happy making factors (purchase $, MF$, layout of units, resort activites, decor, variety of locations, etc).
 

mianmike

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I got a 3bdr/2bath spring break unit 2010 with a 28,000 Wyndham Point deposit.

Wow! that's great!

Bonnet Creek is a pretty resort (stayed there myself, don't own there). But as you learn more about timesharing in general you will learn another term ... point inflation, where the newer resorts cost MORE points to book (and therefore cost more in MFs to stay there). Star Island (Wyndham points and fixed week resort, but NOT managed by Wyndham), just 3 miles further away from Disney, has 3 bdr Prime unit costing 224,000 Wyndham points (just 73% the points which translate to about $475 CHEAPER in MF over Bonnet Creek).

Great points. "Point inflation" that's definitely something to take into consideration. Point inflation affecting MFs is kind of counter-intuitive, I was thinking MFs would be lower for a newer resort, and the amount and type of amenities would have an most effect on the fees. Having said that, as the resorts age is there a point "deflation?"

As John said, I've got a lot to learn . . . Thanks to everyone for being so helpful.
 

UWSurfer

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Thanks for the great post UWsurfer.

I like that feature! Opens up a lot of opportunities. Do you feel you get a decent value when using points for a hotel stay? Do I understand correctly that you can convert HGVC points to RCI points or a reasonable facsimile?

HGVC convert to HHonors points at a ratio of 1:25. (HGVC:HHONORS)

It is conventional thinking that converting them is not the best option from a value standpoint UNLESS you are traveling overseas, in which case it can be a tremendous value in Europe. Still, it's a nice option to have and you can earn additional HHONORS points using an HHONORS branded AMEX or Visa.

As to HGVC to RCI points, there is a conversion chart which indicates how many points per night/season an RCI exchange runs in HGVC points. For giggles, some have booked an HGVC property through RCI using HGVC points which actually cost fewer HGVC points than having gone directly through HGVC. You don't actually deposit anything or work the system in that nature...HGVC's call center searches and tells you how many points a particular stay they locate for you will cost in HGVC points.

The other thing I failed to mention is you can borrow points from the year ahead to make a reservation where otherwise you wouldn't have enough points for th reservation you wish to book. This is how we got the 3 bdrm unit. It's a nice benifit and those who regularly work the system note it's a good way to work the system as you then aren't atttempting to figure out how to use or save unused points at the end of the year. It's a very easy to use, nice program with about 30 "internal" resorts...although most of them are not HGVC developed properties but affiliates. Again, check the HGVC boards for details on the ins and outs of these details.

Lastly, HGVC treats it's resale owners very, very nicely and provides access and benefits at an equal level as someone who purchased from the developer.
 

vacationhopeful

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Point inflation originates at the new resort's point chart for unit & season reservations. New resort, Fancy Pants Resort, has a FIXED NUMBER of UDI points which is divided up over the all weeks, seasons, and size of units. This is the DEEDED part of UDI points - it can NOT change. What might change is week 15 Prime point values are "swapped" with week 43 High point values on the charts for some reason - mud is not as desireable as fall color leaves ... but this is very, very rare.

Point inflation then is the Wyndham points owner needs more points to reserve at Fancy Pants Resort than at an older resort. Wyndham sales weasals use the line how Fancy Pants Resorts has a lower MF per 1,000 points than an older resort (techically true). And the older resort will have to remodel which may cause a SA (Special Assessment) to the owners (NOT a fact the sales weasals, so the use words like "may", "most likely", "usually", and using these fears that a $1200 special assessment is worst than spending $17,500 for studio level points a quiet season).

So, going back to my earlier posts numbers:
Bonnet Creek may have a $5.25 per thousand MF where a 3bdr Prime 308,000 point fee equals costs $1617 to stay. (Home resort reservation)
Star Island may have a $5.30 per thousand MF where a 3bdr Prime 254,000 point fee equals costs $1346 to stay. (Home resort reservation).
If you swap points from a non home resort for either of these stays, the point inflation prehaps clearer: use a $5.00 per thousand MF, Bonnet Creek costs $1540 and Star Island costs $1270, but with a home resort reservation advantage. ALL MF NUMBERS ARE EXAMPLES ONLY.

And remember MOST Wyndham Florida Resorts UDI Points owners get a separate INVOICE for Real Estate Taxes every Fall - in addition to their MF costs.

More to learn??? Keep reading here.
 

timeos2

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Points inflation really isn't such a killer

Point inflation originates at the new resort's point chart for unit & season reservations. New resort, Fancy Pants Resort, has a FIXED NUMBER of UDI points which is divided up over the all weeks, seasons, and size of units. This is the DEEDED part of UDI points - it can NOT change. What might change is week 15 Prime point values are "swapped" with week 43 High point values on the charts for some reason - mud is not as desireable as fall color leaves ... but this is very, very rare.

Point inflation then is the Wyndham points owner needs more points to reserve at Fancy Pants Resort than at an older resort. Wyndham sales weasals use the line how Fancy Pants Resorts has a lower MF per 1,000 points than an older resort (techically true). And the older resort will have to remodel which may cause a SA (Special Assessment) to the owners (NOT a fact the sales weasals, so the use words like "may", "most likely", "usually", and using these fears that a $1200 special assessment is worst than spending $17,500 for studio level points a quiet season).

Remember that it is easy to add resale points - cheap - IF you really need more after you decide on your base amount. As an example we purchased two 126,000 point contracts in 1995 - 252,000 annual FSP points based in Wlliamsburg (Kingsgate) which now cost us $1072/annual fee as of 2009 billing. We have stayed at every Wyndham Resort we desired - in units sizes we desired up to and including the Presidential Suite - and have never purchased another point over that decade +.

That is possible because you can , once you figure out the system, rent points if you need them for a one time slug from Wyndham OR another owner, you can borrow points from a future year and you can pool points from a future year then use them in the current year. Getting the required points we needed and keeping the cost down has never been a problem with FSP. In all those years we have left about 1700 points unused and have never paid a single housekeeping fee. We have banked 28,000 + points with RCI and easily obtained a 2 bedroom unit (week) in trade. With a little study and some minimal planning you can stretch your points to maximize your vacation time or pool & take that once every ten year splurge vacation in a 4 bedroom Presidential Suite overlooking Disney, LV or Atlantic City if you are so inclined.

The ease of reservation and the flexibility of FSP points makes it a rather complicated system to initially learn but a great system to use once you fully grasp all the responsibilities. I wouldn't sweat "point inflation" as it happens in every system - even non-points based systems where it is called higher price and.or higher required trade power - and it is easy to work around in a points based system - almost impossible to handle in a weeks based ownership.

Still learning.
 
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