Looking at the DC points value in reference to exchange history

[dougp26364]

In another thread I posted I'd look at the value of DC points thru the eyes of historical exchanges in the weeks program. I wanted to see how Marriott's re-seasoning, skim et.....would directly impact the economic value of our ownership. So here's the results looking at exchanges that have been made vs the number of points Marriott's DC gives/takes for the same.

These examples are based on our usage of our 3 bedroom Platinum season Grand Chateau week. There have been years when we locked-off, used the master suite for personal use and exchanged the one bedroom unit. I will acknowledge that the DC is not good for reserving at your home resort (should tell you something right there) but, thru weeks I can use and exchange so, it's still relevant to compare this type of usage for those of us who own lock-off units to use a portion of our home resort week and exchange the other portion.

I elected not to look out our Ocean Pointe usage/exchange. Since we always use the master stuite and typically exchange the studio, the number favoring weeks was so strong as to make it a moot point.

I receive 4,625 points for our MGC week. Here's what it would have taken for the same reservations in the DC.


2011:
1 bdrm MGC for 2 bdrm July 10th Mountainside (4,450 points)
2 bdrm MGC (3,675 points)

Total points required 8,125
Total points received 4,625
Shortage: 3,500 points

2010:
1 bdrm MGC for 2 bdrm Harbour Club 5/16-5/23 (1,725 points)
2 bdrm MGC for 2 bedroom Island View Waiohai (4,850)

Total points required 6,575
Total points received 4,625
Shortage 1,950

2009:
MGC 1 bdrm for Custom House 1 bedroom 5/8-5/15 (2,900 points)
MGC 2 bdrm for NCV 2 bdrm 3/6-3/13 (2,900)

Total points required 5,800
Total points received 4,625
Shortage 1,175

2008:
1 bdrm MGC for 2 bdrm Barony Beach Club OS 5/9-5/16 (3,450)
MGC 2 bdrm (3,675)

Total points required 7,125
Total points received 4,625
Shortage 2,500

In four years time I'm short nearly two full weeks (points recieved vs points required) of ownership time at MGC (9,125 points total shortages over 4 years). That's strong incentive for Marriott to get owners into the DC and convert to points as they'll gain that lost usage value (ie: skim).

Make of it what you will and argue points as much as you like. In the end, points are worth less in trade/stay value than weeks have ever been in the past. Other than flexablity, which can be very nice, DC points are a very poor value when viewed thru the eyes of history in our case. I can not validate the DC being worth the price of joining and ongoing membership fee's for the average single week owner of a lock-off unit. It's debatable the value for high value 2 bedroom non-lock-off weeks for stretching exchange value but, I can see there could easily be value for those owners.

For our situation the value comes in eliminating ala carte fee's and, for 2013 in flexability of check in days and/or short stays. Otherwise, points are a very large waste in economic value. Flexiblity can be a good thing but, I would encourage everyone to view the cost of that flexablity before jumping on any DC points bandwagon.

 

[CashEddie]

Wow, thanks Doug for this analysis.

 

[NJMOM2]

Just curious what the results would be if you used a unit that didn't lock off like something from Hilton Head - perhaps the 3BR unit from SurfWatch. This unit tends to trade down because there aren't too many three bedrooms to trade into. Of course you might get an XYZ exchange. (I don't fully understand how XYZ works.)

 

[dioxide45]

Doug,

Our situation is similar. It appears that you prefer to also travel in shoulder/off season the same as we do.

For us:
2011:
2BR Harbour Lake for 2BR Maui Ocean Club October 16th 2010 (5,850 points)
1BR Grande Vista for 2BR Ocean Pointe October 29th 2011 (3,275 points)
Studio Grande Vista for 2BR Surfwatch April 10th 2011 (3,775 points)

2BR Harbour Lake (1950 points)
2BR Grande Vista (2175 points)

Total points required 12,900
Total points received 4,125
Shortage: 8,775 points

I haven't had the chance to analyze past years, perhaps if I get some free time I will take the opportunity. I am tracking my usage going forward however.

I think when locking off and having the ability to travel in less than peak times, the weeks based system through II still works best and will hopefully continue to work well for years to come. DC seems to be where the peak inventory is, but II is still flush with shoulder and off season weeks.

I expect 2012 usage to also be similar, probably not as good as 2011, but still a net gain over using points through DC.

The benefit that we love about DC is the consolidated fee. It is great to be able to go on II and place a request or confirm an exchange and not have to be concerned about forking over money. Making a lock off reservation is also worry free with that fee also included.

Of course it will take a few years for us to break even on the enrollment fee, but it is still great being able to not worry about digging in to our pocket every time we want to lock off or exchange.

 

[dioxide45]

Just curious what the results would be if you used a unit that didn't lock off like something from Hilton Head - perhaps the 3BR unit from SurfWatch. This unit tends to trade down because there aren't too many three bedrooms to trade into. Of course you might get an XYZ exchange. (I don't fully understand how XYZ works.)

A 3BR owners situation would be completely different. That is why playing in points in DC works great for some but not for others. For someone like Sue who often traded down in II, points is a good option where she will likely get more usage out of her week(s) through DC. For someone like Doug and myself, who own lock off units, the usage value through points isn't there. At least based on our travel patterns.

It is however good to know that we have the option of working the system both ways. This would also be good for someone who's travel patterns may change over time.

 

[puckmanfl]

good afternoon...

gang, please remember..there is no right or wrong...but Legacy DC members have the OPTION toplay either game...!!! weeks or points. This is what i really like!!!!

 

[dioxide45]

good afternoon...

gang, please remember..there is no right or wrong...but Legacy DC members have the OPTION toplay either game...!!! weeks or points. This is what i really like!!!!

I agree, and I am not downplaying that option. DC works for different people in different ways.

 

[dougp26364]

good afternoon...

gang, please remember..there is no right or wrong...but Legacy DC members have the OPTION toplay either game...!!! weeks or points. This is what i really like!!!!

This isn't a right or wrong situation. It's simply a real life, real time analysis of where I've been with weeks and what it would have taken with DC points. One has to know where one's been in order to clearly see where one is going.

DC points is an option. The question comes up frequently if the price of admission and ongoing costs are worth it to each owner. Everyone's mileage will vary but, I would encourage anyone thinking about the DC to look at where they've been and what the DC could have, or could not have, done for them.

The "game" can be a VERY expensive game to play if you don't understand the costs.

As I've mentioned, I did convert our 2013 MGC week into points. It was a high cost IMHO but, the cost was worth the flexablity. However I don't plan on making that conversion strictly out of convenience. The built in cost is just to high when MF's are taken into consideration.

 

[puckmanfl]

good afternoon....

I take a waiohai week 7 nites in 2 bedroom for which I get 4250 points.... I spend 4175 pts and get 3 bedrooms at Frenchmans Cove in June on the exact nites I want. I get 75 spare points!!! (whoopee!!) How can this be bad? How can I do this in II , short of Flexchange???? Skim, shmim..skim me all day like this!!!

I take my 3 bedroom GV for 3750 pts...

I get 2 concurrent 5 day stays at Mountainside (sun-thurs) 10 nites total...I say skim me again please!!! I used to trade my 3 bedroom GV for 1 week at Mountainside... Now I get 2 concurrent 5 day stays so my friends can go too!!!

Soon, I will want to go to southern spain in shoulder seasonn..I will lock off my GV into 2 + 1 and use my studio in flex or my 2 bedroom on exchange to make it so!!!!

options baby!!!!

Its what Perry use to say, Learn, use and EXPLOIT!!!!

 

[SueDonJ]

I've done the comparison to see which exchange company gives me better value based on what I've gotten from II in the past and what I can get now from the DC. Somewhere back in all those millions of DC rollout posts there's one from me that shows that my particular weeks (including 3BR non-lockoff SurfWatch weeks) get much better value in the DC than I ever got from II. That comparison - DC v. II - makes sense to me as the one which shows most clearly if there is value in enrolling Weeks in the DC.

The comparison in this thread, how many DC Points it would cost to duplicate Weeks usage, doesn't make as much sense to me. It's interesting to prove that skim exists, I guess, but if you're using Weeks what difference does the Points value make? With the skim factor there should be very few instances where using Points will result in equal or more value than using Weeks. Plus, II exchanges consistently result in "overtrades" for many of the low-Points value Weeks and lock-off units. There's no way those weeks or units will get better value in Points.

 

[dougp26364]

Take it for what it's worth. Like I've said, other's mileage may vary. In my case, the DC points would NOT have provided the same value as weeks exchanges through I.I. This is based on how we travel. Others will vacation differently. The point being, everyone should sit down and take a look using their history, with consideration given to current preferences, as to which system to use. It's the only way to decifer if using DC points or weeks makes better sense. Without actual hard numbers and history to look at, it's simply suggestive analysis instead of objective analysis.

As to the reference to Perry, keep in mind he has something to sell, which has him off these forums at this time. I'm not selling anything. I'm only providing food for thought and the suggestion of looking objectively at the options provided.

I have no interest in whether or not anyone uses DC points or weeks to access the vacations they desire. I only want to provide a point of view and food for thought.

 

[CashEddie]

Take it for what it's worth. Like I've said, other's mileage may vary. In my case, the DC points would NOT have provided the same value as weeks exchanges through I.I. This is based on how we travel. Others will vacation differently. The point being, everyone should sit down and take a look using their history, with consideration given to current preferences, as to which system to use. It's the only way to decifer if using DC points or weeks makes better sense. Without actual hard numbers and history to look at, it's simply suggestive analysis instead of objective analysis.

As to the reference to Perry, keep in mind he has something to sell, which has him off these forums at this time. I'm not selling anything. I'm only providing food for thought and the suggestion of looking objectively at the options provided.

I have no interest in whether or not anyone uses DC points or weeks to access the vacations they desire. I only want to provide a point of view and food for thought.

Doug,

I really appreciate your well thought out analysis on this stuff. I wish I had your data back in November before I enrolled in the DC.

For us legacy owners, this data may not impact us that much because we have the choice of just using our weeks as before and we are not compelled to convert to points. However, this is a big deal for new trust purchasers. For them to enjoy some of the same vacations we have grown to enjoy with our legacy weeks, they will need to lay out some serious cash just to keep up. This is the major chasm between the two ownerships I think your analysis drives home.

Its funny now how when I was sitting at the sales table back in November and the sales guy told me one of the reasons they rolled out the DC points system because it was a "lower cost of entry" into the system for new owners versus the legacy week program.

 

[siberiavol]

Last fall I traded a November Harbor Point for a three bed room Lakeshore that includes the fourth of July. I'd call it my best trade ever. I also used the 4350 points I got from Ocean Point platinum to get five nights at Oceana Palms in January, six nights including the weekend during spring break at Harbor Club and three days including the weekend at Monarch during the Heritage golf tournament.

It is all about how you travel and the point value of your property. If you have high point value properties and want flexibility you can accomplish a lot with points. The low point value properties fare much better trading the traditional way. Upgrades are still available

I like the DC because I can still trade the old way if I want to or look for point bargains when I really don't want or need a full week.

 

[puckmanfl]

good afternoon...

siberiavol...

you nailed it.. well said!!!!

many ways to play!!!!

p.s.. I know Perry has something to sell, but he is just so much fun.... besides, he taught me about the atomic clock....

 

[dioxide45]

good afternoon...

siberiavol...

you nailed it.. well said!!!!

many ways to play!!!!

p.s.. I know Perry has something to sell, but he is just so much fun.... besides, he taught me about the atomic clock....

The atomic clock really only works if MVCI also used an atomic clock. I don't really know how important it is, you really need to just start calling a few minutes before the phone lines open. If online, you just need to keep clicking refresh. I think an atomic clock is unnecessary.

 

[puckmanfl]

good afternoon...

oops.. after spending so much money on it....:whoopie: :whoopie: :whoopie:

 

[GrayFal]

I receive 4,625 points for our MGC week. Here's what it would have taken for the same reservations in the DC.


2011:
1 bdrm MGC for 2 bdrm July 10th Mountainside (4,450 points)
2 bdrm MGC (3,675 points)

Total points required 8,125
Total points received 4,625
Shortage: 3,500 points

2010:
1 bdrm MGC for 2 bdrm Harbour Club 5/16-5/23 (1,725 points)
2 bdrm MGC for 2 bedroom Island View Waiohai (4,850)

Total points required 6,575
Total points received 4,625
Shortage 1,950

2009:
MGC 1 bdrm for Custom House 1 bedroom 5/8-5/15 (2,900 points)
MGC 2 bdrm for NCV 2 bdrm 3/6-3/13 (2,900)

Total points required 5,800
Total points received 4,625
Shortage 1,175

2008:
1 bdrm MGC for 2 bdrm Barony Beach Club OS 5/9-5/16 (3,450)
MGC 2 bdrm (3,675)

Total points required 7,125
Total points received 4,625
Shortage 2,500

In four years time I'm short nearly two full weeks (points recieved vs points required) of ownership time at MGC (9,125 points total shortages over 4 years). That's strong incentive for Marriott to get owners into the DC and convert to points as they'll gain that lost usage value (ie: skim).
.
.

Doug,

For us:
2011:
2BR Harbour Lake for 2BR Maui Ocean Club October 16th 2010 (5,850 points)
1BR Grande Vista for 2BR Ocean Pointe October 29th 2011 (3,275 points)
Studio Grande Vista for 2BR Surfwatch April 10th 2011 (3,775 points)

2BR Harbour Lake (1950 points)
2BR Grande Vista (2175 points)

Total points required 12,900
Total points received 4,125
Shortage: 8,775 points

Thanks for taking the time to post, I appreciate seeing it in black & white.

 

[billymach4]

3 Marriott Timeshares here.

DC Points Free and lovin it.

Thanks to Doug, and Dioxide for some great analysis! Money is still in my pocket.

 

[jimf41]

Just an opposite point of view. I'm sitting on my balcony at Frenchman's Cove watching the Norwegian Gem sail into port. I got here on DC points. An impossible trade in II at 12 months out. I used an Ocean Pointe 2b OS plat unit and I'm in a 2b OF plat unit. I came out 200 points on the upside.

This July I'm back at Ocean Point with a 3b OF, 2b OF x2 and a 1b OF all on the same dates. You just can't do that with II. On the 2 & 3 bdrm units I'm up 600 points using the same units from Ocean Pointe but in Silver season instead of Gold. The 1b cost 2400 points but I'm not sure how to figure the +/- of that usage.

AS others have said you have to figure out what works best for you. I had 1 Ocean Point 2b OS plat unit left in II. After 2 years of not being able to trade it for a FEB week in Frenchman's Cove I gave it to my son who will take his family to Disney at Imperial Palms the week before we go to Ocean Point. As soon as he uses that unit I'm done with II. No more deposits and I'll close that account.

 

[Whirl]

I love these discussions and I agree there is no wrong or right. It really depends on your situation and what the relevant comparisons are for you and what you value as a traveler.

We travel exclusively at peak times now. Before we had kids and before they hit school age, we were avid off peak travelers with alot of flexibility on dates and locations. For the first 8+ years and when I first got into timesharing, I enjoyed searching for great exchanges and getting the absolute most out of my assorted weeks ( many different ownerships along the way). I loved to stay up late and search RCI and II in the early morn and would search multiple times a day, just for amusement. It was thrilling to score a great uptrade!

Now, however, we need a very specific set of dates and often 2 ( even 3) units at once and getting a great view is very important to us. We tend to decide where we want to go which may be influenced by whether a timeshare is there but we will also go traditional and reserve a hotel or rent from another owner if that is more efficient. Now, I need the flexibility of just making the reservation once we have decided to go, buying airline tickets, and crossing vacation planning off the list. I also like the flexibility to call and add an extra day, check in midweek, if desired, and make changes as you could with a hotel.

For me, now, comparisons to the hotel experience are much more applicable than comparing to what I can do through the traditional timeshare route since so many features of that no longer work for our situation. I am a classic case of the consumer to whom I think Marriott is now targeting their new model... Someone who wants to save money versus a hotel, but not give up the flexibility in planning ....Now, remember my vantage point, however, is from a legacy perspective. I have not done any analysis or given much thought to buying trust points, so I cannot have a voice about that.

We own seven Platinum Hilton Head weeks ( other non Marriott ownerships) -- 4 enrolled and 3 not enrolled. I am happy to be able to experience a little of both worlds.

My frustration with weeks is the waiting and hoping for an exchange to come through and especially I almost always need at least 2 units. I own in Hilton head, but for years one week at town different resorts , and I could never get 2 units on exchange through II in prime summer at the same time ( this was partly do to misreprestation as to the ease of exchanging by my sales rep and partly due to my lack of thorough enough due dilegence to get the real scoop, but we knew we would need two units most of the time).

When I did get the two exchanges, the check-in days, inevitably would not match up. I would either have to just accept one Friday and one Saturday check-in and make do or I would try to re-trade and pay another exchange fee get the right day which took alot of work and was just plain irksome.

As a result we havent exchanged that often and just opted to rent our weeks and rent from someone else on other

We went to Marco Island a couple years ago. First time, we used 3 hotel rooms ( Oceanfront) using Marriott rewards packages from turning in my weeks every now and then over the years.

Went again the next year and exchanged my Barony and Monarch week for two weeks at Crystal shores . It didn't take too long to get the exchanges actually, so that was good, BUT they were again, for different check in days.
We were then able to get a THIRD week, but again, not for the right day, so we had to reserve a room for cash for the first night to accommodate everyone.

This year, we did our first DC transaction just a couple weeks ago and in one phone call, I elected DC points for two of my 2013 weeks and made a reservation for two units at Crystal Shores in exactly the views I wanted at the time ( I have since decided to try to change one if possible, but need a couple more points to rent to do it).

I have the flexibility to change it if I need to. I called back already and added an extra day for a mid-week check in. Fantastic. Compared to a hotel or cash reservation, or rental, which are the relevant comparisons for us, since that is where we wanted to go, we are in great shape.

Economics:

Maint fees on Barony and Monarch weeks : $2200 + ($200) DC fee = 2400.

vs. Cash reservation using owner discount: approx $6,000
vs. rental from owner ( but nto currently available and would have to wait) :$5,000-7,000.
vs. cash reservation if NOT an owner:approx $9,000 for bothe units.

I used the full DC fee of 200, but I also reserved a weekend getaway and made changes to that reservation a few times as well. So each change, via II or other timeshare means would likely been conservatively, at least $100, I am not even sure what the fees are as it didnt matter, so I am attempting to conservatively say $100. I have made at least 4 changes to those reservations ( and still maintain flexibility to do so) so thats $400 in fees avoided.

So, that was lengthy, but just an attempt to share how the two programs work for my sitution. I hope that is helpful for someone evaluating best options.

I think, as said previously, if you have high point value weeks and do not travel off peak and want specific control about view and travel, the plan can be quite good.

 

[dioxide45]

Just an opposite point of view. I'm sitting on my balcony at Frenchman's Cove watching the Norwegian Gem sail into port. I got here on DC points. An impossible trade in II at 12 months out.

...

This July I'm back at Ocean Point with a 3b OF, 2b OF x2 and a 1b OF all on the same dates. You just can't do that with II.

...

I am not sure why these would be impossible in II? Perhaps getting them confirmed at the 12 month mark would be, but not getting them at all is a stretch. Now in II there is no view guaranty, but Ocean Pointe summer trades are not difficult to obtain. The 3BR Ocean Pointe OF is a guaranteed view, though the 2BR and 1BR units are not and most likely going to get ocean side. Getting the same dates can be done if you call II and ask for a specific checkin date on your request.

Just wanted to mention that these may not be impossible to get through II, just not possible to confirm at the 12 month mark. It is definitely still doable. Knowing you have reservations confirmed is definitly a good feeling, so I can see this being a big benefit to a lot of people with DC.

 

[puckmanfl]

good morning....

My previous example of taking a 2 bedroom Waiohai and making it a 3 bedroom Frenchmans Cove on the exact dates I require is impossible in II outside of Flexchange....

Taking 1 3 bedroom GV and making it 2 concurrent 5 nite stays in ski season is also impossible in II...

Taking 2 2 bedroom Waiohais IV, converting o a 3bedroom OF at Kauai Lagoons + 4 nites in a 3bedroom townhouse at Lakeshore is also impossible in II....

Of course, taking a 2 bedroom gold GV,locking off and getting two uptrades to Hawaii and OP is also imp[ossible in DC points....

My strategy now is to use 3 of my weeks as DC, lock off my GV and use as 2 Flexchange chips and play BOTH games....

 

[dioxide45]

Of course, taking a 2 bedroom gold GV,locking off and getting two uptrades to Hawaii and OP is also imp[ossible in DC points....

So this shows that the impossible trades actually work both ways. What Doug and I have been able to do would be impossible in DC. What others have been able to do in DC would be impossible in II. No right or wrong, just what works best for each person.

 

[Whirl]

I am not sure why these would be impossible in II? Perhaps getting them confirmed at the 12 month mark would be, but not getting them at all is a stretch. Now in II there is no view guaranty, but Ocean Pointe summer trades are not difficult to obtain. The 3BR Ocean Pointe OF is a guaranteed view, though the 2BR and 1BR units are not and most likely going to get ocean side. Getting the same dates can be done if you call II and ask for a specific checkin date on your request.

Just wanted to mention that these may not be impossible to get through II, just not possible to confirm at the 12 month mark. It is definitely still doable. Knowing you have reservations confirmed is definitly a good feeling, so I can see this being a big benefit to a lot of people with DC.

You are right..."Impossible", definitely too absolute a word. However, likely much more trouble than is optimal for us at this point, having tried to secure multiple weeks numerous times one year out. I also cant always know anymore what I want or am able to do 12 months out and as such, we JUST decided on our summer plans 6 months out and to change what we originally planned to do.


Again, I like and need this flexibility alot. I could make a reservation based on where I think I want to go a year out, but change it based on availablity and needs with no penalties and relative ease.

 

[Whirl]

So this shows that the impossible trades actually work both ways. What Doug and I have been able to do would be impossible in DC. What others have been able to do in DC would be impossible in II. No right or wrong, just what works best for each person.

So, I would could have worked with a 3 bedroom at crystal shores each time, but that has so far not been possible through DC or II.