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Lets look at an actual exchange weeks vs points

timeos2

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Having recently decided to spend a summer week in New Hampshire I have been looking at the options from all of my available sources. Here is what I found:

- FF doesn't have a resort in the area I desire but I can use points for an affiliate resort or as an RCI weeks exchange. I would need to use 126,000 FF points for the deposit required and pay the exchange fee of $149 for a total cost of $614. The unit available using this trade is a 1 br in the original section of the Eastern Slope Inn (although there are other choices I will stick with one resort just to have some degree of continuity). We have stayed there before, it is an average resort with a lot of charm but unranked.

- If I deal in straight week for week trades I can use either my Westgate or Cypress Pointe which can be placed into the weeks pool. If I do either my week is gone along with my annual fee. Plus the exchange fee. Using my 2 BR Westgate I'd get the same Eastern Slope unit for my annual $645 plus $149 or $794. Using my three bedroom CPR I'd spend $685 plus $149 - $834. And once used that week is gone - no change back.

- If I convert my weeks above into PFD (Points For Deposit) they create two wildly different results. The 2BR Westgate is considered a standard, unranked resort so I get 38,000 for my $645 + $26 deposit fee (since 1/1/06) - $ .018/pt. While my CPR as a Gold Crown 3 BR brings in 74,500 points or $.0095/pt.

Now comes the fun part. Using RCI Points I search for available units. There are the same exact use dates and units I saw in weeks but the points cost is 22,500 to 24,000. And there are options for many different unit configurations that range from 15,000 points to 54,000 for that week at that resort. In weeks there were three unit options and picking any one of them meant 100% of my week deposit was gone - here I can decide to use some or all of my weeks value as best fits our needs. I can get "change back"! Lets use the 24,000 point time and the cost is $353 using my CPR points or $ 557 using my Westgate points. And I get change back from both. I'm ahead already.

But, like a Ginsu knife commercial, there is much more to the story. Now that I'm viewing the world from RCI Points I see that I'm not limited to the original Eastern Slope Inn anymore. Behind the Inn are brand new townhomes known as the Suites at Eastern Slope Inn that are not in the RCI Weeks system at all. When we visited in 2004 we were given a tour of those and we all commented that while we liked the original Inn and it's charm we preferred the more "timeshare" like units that the Suites offered while still enjoying the common areas of the original Inn. The best of both as it were.

So now I see it takes 65,500 points to get a 1 BR Suites unit on 8/13. There are also options for studios and 2 bedrooms with various point values. If I use my CPR points my cost for a 1 BR is $721.25 but I'm now staying in a Gold Crown resort much closer to what we enjoy at our "home resort in Orlando and still getting 9,000 points back for future use. I call that a much more balanced exchange than the whole week for a 1 BR in the old Inn. But there is STILL more!

Turns out school starts the third week of August so demand goes down for units. I can save another 13,500 points if we can travel on 8/20 rather than 8/13. Yet that same time in weeks would still cost me either my whole 2 or 3 bedroom week and I'd still be at the unranked Inn rather than the Gold Crown Suites. So now my cost is $619 after the PFD fee and the $99 exchange fee. And I still have 22,500 of my CPR points left to spend over the next two years. I'm getting a far superior unit for less than the weeks exchange cost and still have more points to use later.

Now all of this focused on only 1 specific resort and the various options I saw there. In reality in RCI Points there were 9 different resorts available in that area and each had many of the options I listed above for unit size, ranking or no ranking and variations on points required based on dates and the unit features/size we picked. In weeks there were only 4 choices from 8/9 to 8/20/06. All of this only 7 months from the use date so we are fairly sure what our available dates will be rather than trying to guess 18-24 months out.

When I speak of flexibility in exchange finding 9 resorts and literally a hundred different ways to reserve use 7 months away from use defines the word for me. Being able to shop my points until I find the best cost/value is flexible. Having multiple unit sizes and point values is flexible. Having clearly defined point costs - thus identified dollar cost - that I can pick and choose is flexible. Not having to give up my full deposit for one fixed week (and not even at an equal quality of resort) is flexible. To me this small exercise proves beyond a doubt why people prefer a good points based exchange system over the old fixed week model. I get to choose and I get to save or splurge depending on my choices. That is flexible. Not even Carolianian can tell me that the old fixed week model did better than that, can he?

Long live points.
 

JLB

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That's a nice diatribe and illustrates what is best for you. :D
 

Dave M

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JLB expresses my sentiments very well.

What works well for you will also work well for some others. But not for all of us.

If my ability to successfully "trade up" with weeks ever erodes to the extent it's no longer significant, I might come over to your side. Not until then.
 

CaliDave

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I can come up with the same situation where my family loves to vacation in Southern California Coastal. I got a 2bd GC summer week. Total cost for the week $425.00

Not even points can match that... (BruceCZ doesn't count)

I could give all the details of my vacaion planning, but I won't. The "point" is one system isn't always right or wrong for every situation.

Points is right for you.. weeks is right for me.
 

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Points tend to be especially productive when the underlying weeks are at overpointed resorts in overbuilt areas. They perform well, because supply and demand factors are no longer in play with the rigged numbers of RCI Points.

The Weeks system doesn't work as well for trading weeks from overbuilt areas because those pesky market factors of supply and demand come into play, and the weeks have to trade for what they are really worth instead of some value arbitrarily assigned by a central authority.
 
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timeos2

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The value is assigned if you see it or not

Carolinian said:
Points tend to be especially productive when the underlying weeks are at overpointed resorts in overbuilt areas. They perform well, because supply and demand factors are no longer in play with the rigged numbers of RCI Points.

The Weeks system doesn't work as well for trading weeks from overbuilt areas because those pesky market factors of supply and demand come into play, and the weeks have to trade for what they are really worth instead of some value arbitrarily assigned by a central authority.
I could have picked my Cape Cod week instead - a very high value in weeks. Had I done so I still see only the same 4 resorts I see with my Orlando times and, more importantly, if I used it for one of those non-ranked resorts it would be gone. Despite it's far superior value I would get nothing back as I do in points. The fatal flaw is the fixed, one for one nature of weeks that requires the owner to attempt to match the trade value rather than the system doing it.

And who places the values on the weeks? That same central authority you dislike but they do it without revealing the results. And thats a better way? I would reverse the opinion of which system is rigged. Weeks benefits mostly the exchange company, developers and low value time owners at the expense of the higher value owners. Thats why many have left weeks and gone to the various points systems.
 

T_R_Oglodyte

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If I were running a weeks based exchange company and I were interested in maximizing my short-term profits, I would absolutely minimize the number of upgrades I offered in a week-for-week exchange. My goal would be to offer the exchanger the lowest value week I could. That would leave me a surplus of upper end weeks I could rent for maximum value.

The point being, the hidden value of the weeks system creates at least as much incentive to distort supply and demand valuations.

If RCI is as untrustworthy a company as Carolinian would have us believe, why should he assume a priori that when it comes to manipulating supply and demand in the weeks system, RCI's is suddenly trustworthy?

If you buy Carolinian's picture of RCI and its motives, it simply does not follow that the supply and demand picture we see in Weeks is any more trustworthy and accurate than the supply and demand relationship in Points.

But with Points, a member knows exactly how many points their week will get and what exchanges they can expect to make with it.

In either Weeks or Points, RCI has an pecuniary incentrive to get the relationships reasonably close. If they screw up those relationships in either system, they get stuck with a glut of overvalued weeks that they can't move for the value they gave the owners of those weeks, and owners of undervalued weeks stop depositing because they can bet better value elsewhere.

Certainly the weeks system can be more dyanmic in resonding to changes in supply as compared with the way the points system is currently wired. But that greater dynamism also creates greater opportunities to manipulate for short-term gain.

The analogy is with a commodities market that is dominated by one or two large players (where the dominant players are dominant in the marketplace as middlemen but not in determining the overall supply - i.e., a market such as wheat or sugar, but not a commodity such as gold or diamonds). In a market such as wheat or sugar, it's very difficult for those large brolers to set the long term price, because the overall demand and supply of the commodity is determined by forces that are outside their control. But in the short term the dominant brokers can create and exploit short term swings in the market. And when the entire process is hidden, it's even easier for them to do.

If RCI is the evil entity that many people suspect them of being, we should be far more suspicious of supply-demand relationship manipulations by RCI in the Weeks system than in the Points system.
 
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jjking42

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the weeks system is best used when trading up. and when you can plan 18-24 months in advances

The points system is best used when trading down. Does anyone really like to book those HH summer or Colorado ski weeks at 85,000 + points. Points are a very good value for shoulder season and other slight downgrades. But not GC prime season unless you are raiding the weeks side.

The best thing about points is raiding non points resorts on the weeks side. The generic grid is just wrong and the result is almost always a trade up.

If you own some of both than you can go up or down.

Its cheaper to book a fall week on the beach with points but i would rather book a summer week with a weeks trade.
 

JLB

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What's the Purpose

What exactly is the purpose of arguing back and forth over which system is better, especially when no one is asking for anyone's advice on the subject?

I know people who do quite well in at least a dozen different systems, probably more like two dozen, but I don't see them trying to win converts.

I recently started a thread comparing the same searches in Points and Weeks, not because I was trying to prove any point~~~I already knew what works for us and have no desire to convert anyone to my beliefs or to have someone else convert me to their beliefs if it is not best for us. I did so because I was surprised by what I feel are restrictions placed on Points members that I did not expect to see. I was also surprised by how expensive trades I do in Weeks would be in Points.

I did the searches in Points to see if I could figure out where the good stuff for SW Florida in January has gone. I concluded Points wasn't the culprit, Weeks raiding as it is called, because Points members can see anything more than I can when I'm looking. By the time they can get 'em through Points, the good ones are long gone.

I'm not promoting or damning anything, just saying I was surprised to see those things after the years of ballyhooing Points on TUG.
 

funtime

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Thanks for the walk through

I am not a points person but I did appreciate the walk through. It took time to lay it all out and I am sure it will help other tuggers. While I have a few RCI weeks, I like II much better. But specific examples as you have taken the time to do is far more helpful to other TUGGERS that the back and forth of some other postings as to which is better. points or weeks.
 

T_R_Oglodyte

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Let's play a little thought game. Instead of trading timeshare weeks, let's trade stocks. You've got 700 shares of stock in Company A that you have availale for trade. But the situation will be like this.
  • You can only swap your shares for shares in another Company - no outright sales.

  • The market is totally dominated by two brokers, Betwen them the two brokers handle 90% of the business. Those brokers are the entities that determine what a stock is worth and they are also the entities that conduct the actual transfers of stock. Of the two brokers, the Broker #1 is about twice as big as Broker #2.

  • You can open a Commodities Account with Broker #1. The commdoity account deals in commodity units, with commodity unit consisting of 700 shares. You can only deal in units of 700 shares; the 700 share units cannot be split, but you can combine multiples of 700 shares.

    When you want to make a trade you give Broker #1 one or more 700 share units. Your account rep at Broker #1 looks over their available inventory and offers you several options of 700 share units you can accept in return for your unit. You are free to accept the offer or not. If you don't accept, you can come back later and inquire again about what units might be available.

    You can't get your 700 shares back, though, after you put them in the Commodity Account.

    There are no formal rules established for how Broker #1 decides what they will offer you in exchange for your 700 shares. You can only select from what Broker #1 offers you, or accept nothing at all. Broker #1 is the sole judge as to what relative value they assing to your 700 shares as compared with all other 700 share blocks. Your only recourse if you don't like what you are offered after having deposited your shares is to not offer them any more of those shares in the future, or to close your account if you no longer want to deal with Broker #1 at all.

  • You can open a Currency Account with Broker #1. In a currency account, Broker #1 posts the value in nibs of all of the 700 share blocks in which it makes a market. Those values are posted on January 1 of every year, and remain unchanged during the course of a year.

    Before you give Broker #1 your 700 shares, you can see how many nibs you will receive in exchange for your 700 shares. You can also see how many nibs are required for all of the other units in which Broker #1 makes a market.

    In a Currency Account, you can obtain shares in as litle as 100 share units. The value chart shows which stocks are available in 100 share units, and provides nib values in for both 100 share units and 700 share units.

    Unredeemed nibs remain in your account and can be combined with leftover nibs from other transactions and new nibs created from new deposits to your account to make more exchanges.

Now, I submit that in the analogy above, the Currency Account with Broker #1 is far less vulnerable to behind the scenes supply and demand manipulation and hanky-panky than is the commodity account.

The fact that values are published only once per year is a disadvantage, but it is a disadvantage for both the Broker and the account holder. Both parties bear the risks associated with the Value chart becoming outdated. As real values change, some account holder share blocks will become overvalued and these holders will be credited with more nibs than their weeks is worth. Those accounts will extact more value than they yield, to the detriment of Broker #1.

Other times, the dynamics will result in some units increasing in value after the values are published, so the owners of those units have fewer nibs in their account than they would under a dynamic pricing system.
 
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"Roger"

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T_R_Oglodyte said:
If I were running a weeks based exchange company and I were interested in maximizing my short-term profits, I would absolutely minimize the number of upgrades I offered in a week-for-week exchange. My goal would be to offer the exchanger the lowest value week I could. That would leave me a surplus of upper end weeks I could rent for maximum value...

This is EXACTLY what my wife said after our first timeshare trade. In points, you have to get back one for one. Weeks allows a company to manipulate people to, on average, trade down. (I say, on average, because you need to throw in some up trades for appearance.) When the average trade is a trade down, the company can skim off the top and rent the best inventory.

This has created one of the biggest ironies on TUG. A whole crew of people, entirely suspicious of RCI, have been defending the very system that would allow RCI to accomplish what they accuse them of doing.
 

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deja vu all over again

It's amazing how many times this topic gets repackaged and rehashed over and over and over again...mostly by the same few people.

Neither side seems content to let the other be happy with what works best for them. Both sides want to have the last word. And both keep searching for that new way of phrasing their argument that may finally convince someone. Perhaps a few TUGGERS are convinced one way or the other from time to time...but certainly the core participants in these threads aren't likely to change their views.

I guess the "fun" is in the debate...and that's cool. It just seems like the topic would die out after a while...kind of like the old "potatoes or Stove Top" debate of 1980s advertising :)...but that doesn't seem to happen with this topic.

Steve
 

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I completely agree that the problems you describe exist in both systems. And, I think you're absolutely right -- there is no reason to trust that the weeks system is fairly administered either.

I think the biggest problem is rentals. Despite what the T&C say, the "morally and ethically correct" practice would be to offer all deposits to other owners before declaring anything "excess."

Example: Resort A = 100 (whether it's a point value or a secret weeks trading value is irrelevant).

Points owners can see a cost of 100; if no one wants it (i.e. no one is willing to pay 100), RCI can't lower it to 90 until the next annual "rebalancing." Therefore, it's excess ... and goes to the rental pool. This needs to change.

Using the same example, RCI can (AND SHOULD) lower the secret weeks trading value to 90. If there are still no takers, they can (AND SHOULD) lower the value to 80 ... and so on. They should not be permitted to rent the unit until "X" is met (90 days/trading power decreased 50%). "X" should be plainly and accurately spelled out in the T&C for all to see.

That members allow them to do anything else is beyond my comprehension.

My other big issues with RCI Points are the generic crossover grid (but it did seem to get better this year, so I'll give credit where credit is due) and the ability for points owners to make points partners exchanges that are not based on their own units. Allowing the fox to withdraw comparable units for the rental pool is just unbelievable to me. I asked Madge to provide examples of the points partners units that led to the Embassy Maui rentals. Not surprisingly, she was unable (probably not permitted) to do so. With II, you can only make the equivalent of a "points partner" trade BEFORE you deposit. Only YOUR DEPOSIT is put into the rental pool. This is as it should be. Anything else is simply putting way too much power/tempation in the fox's control.

Although I'm sure I'm perceived as a points hater, I just want to go on record by declaring myself an "RCI Points Hater" only. I happen to think the other points programs (that I'm personally familiar with) are wonderful!
 

timeos2

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There are those who don't know how points work

funtime said:
I am not a points person but I did appreciate the walk through. It took time to lay it all out and I am sure it will help other tuggers. While I have a few RCI weeks, I like II much better. But specific examples as you have taken the time to do is far more helpful to other TUGGERS that the back and forth of some other postings as to which is better. points or weeks.
The idea of the post was to do a one time, resort specific comparison of the two major methods of exchanging timeshare use. There are often questions posted here about what the differences are. This trade was ripe for the job as it happened to be available in both systems and presented a great example of the differences in the two systems. I don't expect anyone to decide that one or the other is the only system for them based on this but I hope it will provide a small sample of the differences so others can perhaps get a better feel for that and if another option may work for them as it has for us.

Heck, I'm not even sure I got the best deal for myself. I've made no study of weeks values as I don't have the time to try to figure all that out. I know that in my simple approach to timeshare exchange points makes more sense to me and I can feel like I control the outcome and the cost to my satisfaction. That didn't happen in all my years of weeks only trades so I have decided that points work better for us. Yet I still check weeks as well to do the best I can to get the best value each time. I don't plan to make a job out of either - I just want the resorts, times and unit size we desire. If I get those we're happy.
 

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JLB said:
I did the searches in Points to see if I could figure out where the good stuff for SW Florida in January has gone. I concluded Points wasn't the culprit, Weeks raiding as it is called, because Points members can see anything more than I can when I'm looking. By the time they can get 'em through Points, the good ones are long gone.

I'm not promoting or damning anything, just saying I was surprised to see those things after the years of ballyhooing Points on TUG.

Exactly. While there is much that I disagree with Carolinian about, I have always agreed that many weeks are over-pointed. I now realize that in my mind, that somehow meant that perhaps there was a raiding of Weeks going on. What I have found is that nothing could be further from the truth. At least not based upon what I have seen. I can still see much more with my strong Weeks unit than I can in Points. For many weeks, the monetary costs in Points would be far higher than the costs to me in Weeks. In some cases however, Points just can't be beat.

My bottom line and best advice is this....keep your strong traders in Weeks, and put your weak traders in Points.
 

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Dani said:
Exactly. While there is much that I disagree with Carolinian about, I have always agreed that many weeks are over-pointed. I now realize that in my mind, that somehow meant that perhaps there was a raiding of Weeks going on. What I have found is that nothing could be further from the truth. At least not based upon what I have seen. I can still see much more with my strong Weeks unit than I can in Points. For many weeks, the monetary costs in Points would be far higher than the costs to me in Weeks. In some cases however, Points just can't be beat.

My bottom line and best advice is this....keep your strong traders in Weeks, and put your weak traders in Points.

Dani,

Thanks so much for confirming what I have been saying about the "raiding of weeks" red herring. You only learn this by actually trying it.

What I am excited about is the Manhattan Club sightings you have been posting. I think it's worth keeping my RCI Points account just for reserving stays there.

Do you know if they charge an additional housekeeping fee?
 

Dani

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BocaBum99 said:
Dani,

Thanks so much for confirming what I have been saying about the "raiding of weeks" red herring. You only learn this by actually trying it.

What I am excited about is the Manhattan Club sightings you have been posting. I think it's worth keeping my RCI Points account just for reserving stays there.

Do you know if they charge an additional housekeeping fee?

You hit the nail on the head. I had been thinking about getting rid of my Points week. I had been weighing the pro's and con's. For awhile, the cons were winning. Now, I will likely keep the week. I like that I can book MC for a day, or two, or three. I also had not been doing many searches for short stays until I read the posts by Spence last night. I have booked no less than three weeks in II and RCI this year where I can only stay for a few days so this feature may come in very handy and actually save me some money.

As for additional housekeeping fees, I have no idea.
 

JLB

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Dani said:
keep your strong traders in Weeks, and put your weak traders in Points.

So you can manipulate both sytems! :cool:
 

boyblue

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JeffV said:
Want to make a bet? :)

Thanks JeffV for the best laugh I've had this year. :D :) :rolleyes: :cool:

John your study is very useful so is the one done by JLB. We need more of these case studies. That way we can put some meat on the points vs weeks skeleton.

The difficulty is the space/time continuum.
 
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Dani

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JLB said:
So you can manipulate both sytems! :cool:


Indeed. I said a few months back before I even had a Points account that perhaps those who owned within both systems were among the most savvy of owners. As the days pass, I am more and more convinced of it.
 

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Weeks!!! Points!!!

I don't care what you prefer... for me it's not joining RCI until it quits renting to the public. I'll use my weeks... that works for me and when it quits working I'll dump the weeks and rent them cheaper than I currently pay in maintenance fees.
 

timeos2

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The raiding was always a ruse

It is the flexibility, availability and predictability of points that makes them attractive. The so called raiding was never the primary reason to get into points as the selections usually aren't great but you can grab an occasional deal just like the last minute weeks choices. Not a place to plan the majority of your timeshare use. It makes for a great rallying cry as it sounds so ominous to weeks traders but never had a basis in fact.

One of the truly great features of points that I don't see played up often is the fact that the system actively brings in inventory - often great inventory. When the MC as an example signs up a new RCI Points member for the next three years at a minimum that inventory is now available to all points members. And it's in the system in a predictable timeframe as well as smaller increments than 1 set week. There is no guarantee that a weeks member would have placed that time into the system and no chance that it could be utilized as an owner at the resort can - two, three and four day stays if preferred. Multiply that by close to a half million members and multiple weeks from many and the pool of available time has improved significantly. And many of those owners may also take advantage of PFD again increasing the choices. Having a large pool of available points is the best way to use the point system so making deposits becomes an inviting alternative. You can even check before making that PFD what it will get you - a better request first system if you will. And of course there are the points only resorts which are only available to points members. That category is growing everyday and usually with the newest resorts.
 
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