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"lesser" starwood properties out of SVN?

djp

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Do you think the time will come when some of the "lesser/older" svn properties will be kicked out of svn? For instance places where there ae two svn properties and one is obviously older and not as great. Like in phoenix with Desert oasis, and kierland. Or orlando with Vistana (lakes and cascades) and vistana villages, or avon vail with lakeside terrace and sheraton mountain vista. Do you think that the older/lesser resorts will one day no longer be SVN or have significantly lower staroption values? And if so what does that mean for other resorts 10 years down the road. Is this a decision that would be made by corporate starwood or by the ownerss association. I know there have been issues like this at streamside marriott in vail. Any thoughts?
 

djp

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I felt like this was an interesting question. Why no replies, thoughts or specualtions? With as much money as those of us who have bought from the developer have spent, It would make me feel better knowing that as a resort ages it cant be kicked out of svn.
 

grgs

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I think that legally (esp. if you purchased from the developer) you bought not only your deeded week, but also the StarOptions assigned to that unit to be used in SVN. While Starwood can (and does) limit membership on resales at some resorts, I think they would get into trouble taking this away from owners who purchased directly from them. Even if they could do so legally, I would think that it would be a disastrous pr move. So I don't think this will happen.
 

DavidnRobin

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grgs said:
I think that legally (esp. if you purchased from the developer) you bought not only your deeded week, but also the StarOptions assigned to that unit to be used in SVN. While Starwood can (and does) limit membership on resales at some resorts, I think they would get into trouble taking this away from owners who purchased directly from them. Even if they could do so legally, I would think that it would be a disastrous pr move. So I don't think this will happen.
Can you give an example of which resorts SVO/SVN has limited SVN membership upon resales?
 

malex2

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Duration of SVN Affiliation

Quoting from the SVN Owner Membership Agreement (pp. 3-4), "Owner's continued participation in SVN is dependent on the continued affiliation of the Resort with SVN Operator. SVN Operator reserves the right to suspend participation in SVN of Owners if the Association fails to maintain and manage the accomodations and facilities of tghe Resort at the level of quality and customer service established by SVN Operator for all SVN Resorts from time to time, in its sole discretion, as more specifically set forth in the Resort Affiliation Agreement."

I don't have a copy of the Resort Affiliation Agreement to see how and when SVN can exercise its right (i.e., contract length and renewal, advance warning or notice, etc.).

Personally, I don't think that the age of the resort alone is a concern. I would be more concerned if a resort were to lose II 5 Star or RCI Gold Crown status and suffer loss of trading attractiveness. Just my opinion.

malex2
 

DavidnRobin

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grgs said:
All the non-mandatory resorts don't come with SVN memberships on resale. See the Starwood TUG article for a list (non-mandatory are referred to as "SVN Voluntary):

http://www.tug2.net/advice/Starwood_Vacation_Network.htm
I know this about mandatory resorts (vs. non-mandatory) - I did not realize you were only discussing non-mandatory resorts in your response when you stated "While Starwood can (and does) limit membership on resales at some resorts...".

Do they offer SVN membership at non-mandatory resorts for owners that bought from SVO? What would be the purpose since they can't exchange anyway?
 
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jerseygirl

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Starwood sold the St. Augustine resort and I don't think it was a quality issue. There just wasn't the interest they thought there would be, from a sales perspective. I'm not sure if it was part of SVN or not, but Cascades and PGA (maybe Lakes too) were entitled to "free exchanges" to this resort, and then ... poof ... it was gone. It can happen, but I agree with the above poster, it would be disasterous from a public relations point-of-view.
 

jerseygirl

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blujahz said:
Do they offer SVN membership at non-mandatory resorts for owners that bought from SVO? What would be the purpose since they can't exchange anyway?
Yes, they definitely offer SVN membership for developer purchases at all the non-mandatory resorts that are part of the network, e.g. Broadway Plantation, PGA, Vistana Resort, etc. They also manage a couple of other resorts (Vistana Beach Club, Villas of Cave Creek) where SVN membership is not available, even if you buy from the developer (I think they're sold out, but may have foreclosures available from time-to-time).

As far as a developer purchase at a non-mandatory resort is concerned, you can exchange for StarOptions and StarPoints just like with any other SVN resort. You just can't join the network with a resale purchase (unless you re-qualify).
 

Ken555

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djp said:
Do you think that the older/lesser resorts will one day no longer be SVN or have significantly lower staroption values? And if so what does that mean for other resorts 10 years down the road.
The two main reasons I decided to purchase Kierland after I convinced myself SVN was the way to go:

1) Cost per StarOption

2) The resort is new

I also wondered about the long-term ability to trade to other high-quality resorts, and I limited my purchase options to only (relatively) new and well-maintained properties. By buying Kierland, a resort SVN planned, I tend to doubt the Board would elect a different manager, assuming Starwood continues to be a reasonable and affordable partner.

I don't believe Starwood has the right to lower the StarOptions on a property, though I wouldn't be surprised if they tried one day (lawyers can do almost anything, it seems...). They can, however, simply stop managing a resort, which would leave all their owners without any StarOptions and only the right to visit their own property or exchange via II or equivalent, personal trades, or rent. This is yet another reason I bought Kierland...figuring that if the worst happened I'd still be able to visit Kierland, though it won't have the flexibility to do everything I wanted when I bought.

I'm also hoping that by buying a new resort any special assessments which may occur would happen years down the road from now. The last thing I'd like is to purchase (dev or resale) and get hit with a special assessment in the first few years of ownership.

A related issue to your question is whether or not SVN owners want to trade into an older and/or less well-maintained property. Speaking for myself, I'd be unhappy if I traded StarOptions for a property which isn't as nice as the one I purchased. Of course, the value of StarOptions seems to vary by property and isn't always an indication on the newest or quality of the property. For instance, the new Lagunamar Ocean Resort in Cancun is only 95,700 StarOptions for the 2-bed in prime season (one of the main reasons I told sales last year I wasn't interested in it). I suspect (and hope!) that it will be just as nice as Kierland or WKORV...and is "cheaper" to trade into than Kierland in the same season. By the same reasoning St. John is also cheaper, though it's not a new resort.
 
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DavidnRobin

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Hey Ken -

You may want to check the SVO documents - if I read them correctly, SVO does have the right to alter StarOptions.

Also - it is not only the cost of SOs, but also MFs. Plus the value of resale, rental, and trade/exchange of the unit/resort should be considered in this equation.

WSJ is not new, and SOs are less - our 2Bd/3Ba 1250sqft Townhouse has only the same SOs as the studio side of the WKORV LO (500sqft) - yet it is relatively easy to get WKORV - and very difficult to exchange into WSJ. WSJ resale value for some owners has actually increased, and easy to get direct exchanges - plus rental values are high. Yet, exchange thru SVN is not desirable. WSJ (Hillside) are fixed weeks/units, and this complicates things.

Of course - there is the aspect of where one wants to vacation - St John is an incredible place (for us), but others may prefer a place like Disneyland (not us).

Many owners would love to exchange into St John (if possible) thru SVN exchange for very few relative SOs, but we bought there even though it is older, has special assessments, and low SOs because it is where we want to vacation, and if not we can direct exchange, rent, and possible resale for what we paid.
 

Ken555

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blujahz said:
Hey Ken -

You may want to check the SVO documents - if I read them correctly, SVO does have the right to alter StarOptions.
Where? I just tried looking them up on starwoodvo and couldn't find anything. Is it available online?

Also - it is not only the cost of SOs, but also MFs. Plus the value of resale, rental, and trade/exchange of the unit/resort should be considered in this equation.
Err...ok, let's broaden the question! Of course, there are so many ways of justifying a particular purchase, for a particular purpose, that we are probably both 'right'.

WSJ is not new, and SOs are less - our 2Bd/3Ba 1250sqft Townhouse has only the same SOs as the studio side of the WKORV LO (500sqft) - yet it is relatively easy to get WKORV - and very difficult to exchange into WSJ.
Speaking for my own vacation plans, as I am able to travel during the off-season, this hasn't yet applied to me. That said, it probably will during the next year! Last year I was able to get either WSJ or WKORV during almost any week in April or May. Now that I've said this, I'm sure Murphy will visit and I won't get it when I want in 2007...

WSJ resale value for some owners has actually increased, and easy to get direct exchanges - plus rental values are high. Yet, exchange thru SVN is not desirable. WSJ (Hillside) are fixed weeks/units, and this complicates things.
In the last 12 months since I purchased my Platinum Kierland, the resale price appears to have increased $5,500 (see the other thread on Kierland resales). I would hope that WSJ would appreciate, especially now that they're building more there.

WSJ has its own advantages. For your purposes, buying there makes the most sense. You don't want to use the StarOptions to go to other resorts, so they're practically irrelevant for your use - since you only want to redeem them to go to WSJ! I think it's helpful to compare usage of your t/s to similar usage, or else this will be hard to evaluate. I bought Kierland to go anywhere within SVN, not just to go to Kierland. Different purposes.

Of course - there is the aspect of where one wants to vacation - St John is an incredible place (for us), but others may prefer a place like Disneyland (not us).
Exactly. And, I can't understand buying in Orlando, but that's another story (and unless one wants to always go to a Disney property, etc). I just searched Orlando for my brother's family, since they want to go later this year. Every Marriott was available for the weeks they are considering, along with Vistana, etc. And they are only about $550 for a 2-bed on II's getaway program. Anyway, back to the question at hand...

Many owners would love to exchange into St John (if possible) thru SVN exchange for very few relative SOs, but we bought there even though it is older, has special assessments, and low SOs because it is where we want to vacation, and if not we can direct exchange, rent, and possible resale for what we paid.
Well put. Again, different reason for purchase than I. I expect that I'll be happy going to WSJ once every few years, if not less frequently. And if/when my travel needs change, so will my t/s's.

And, I think it's worth noting again, the SO's for Cancun are also less than other new properties. And it may turn into the same type of demand that WSJ enjoys, and we'll discover that if you want to go there during a holiday you'll need to buy there. Even so, for those of us who travel off-season, it may be a great option to WSJ... :)
 

grgs

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blujahz said:
I know this about mandatory resorts (vs. non-mandatory) - I did not realize you were only discussing non-mandatory resorts in your response when you stated "While Starwood can (and does) limit membership on resales at some resorts...".
Yes, that's all I was referring to. I apologize if I confused you or anyone else.

Glorian
 

DavidnRobin

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Ken555 said:
Where? I just tried looking them up on starwoodvo and couldn't find anything. Is it available online?

And, I think it's worth noting again, the SO's for Cancun are also less than other new properties. And it may turn into the same type of demand that WSJ enjoys, and we'll discover that if you want to go there during a holiday you'll need to buy there. Even so, for those of us who travel off-season, it may be a great option to WSJ... :)
It is in the by-laws/CCRs that I have for both WKORV and WKORV-N, also I think I read in in the WSJ by-laws on mystarcentral - I have these as PDF files - it states them as 'Points' but equates 'Points' as StarOptions (and not StarPoints) - it is somewhat confusing to read - but I read it as SVO/SVN can change the 'Points' assigned to units.

Cancun is not a mandatory SVN resort - I wouldn't buy in Mexico anyway for other reasons.

At some point - we may buy cheap SOs for exchanging - we only have 3-weeks vacation per year - but as mentioned - I will consider the overall costs (SOs and MFs), along with the exchange, rental and resale value in buying more SVN SOs.

Kierland has advantages for us because it is relatively close by, our folks live close, SF Giants have Spring-Training there, and we like Scottsdale. If we can find a good price for what we get (as discussed above) - we may try and get a resale unit.

Best Regards
 
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