letsgobobby
TUG Member
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2009
- Messages
- 1,201
- Reaction score
- 609
- Points
- 323
- Resorts Owned
- HGVC - Lagoon, W57th, MarBrisa, Paradise
Hello all,
I'm in the middle of a package at Waikoloa Kings' Land and just completed the 2 hour presentation. Some thoughts and questions follow.
To start with, based on my reading at TUG I knew I was not going to buy. However, I wanted to hear what they had to say, as I am somewhat interested in buying resale.
My offer was: 5 d/4 n 2BR/2BA at Kings' Land Waikoloa, car rental, $200 SANU (stay a night on us at future Hilton portfolio hotel), and 2 luau tickets for about $849+.
The presentation:
We arrived at 1:03 pm for a 1 pm appointment and they had us waiting til about 1:20 pm before taking us back. I expected to be in a group presentation but it was just 1 sales rep and the 2 of us. She spent about 45 minutes explaining the HGVC system but regrettably she was somewhat disorganized and rambling and as a result my wife (who knows nothing about timesharing but a lot about survey and interview technique as a research analyst) says she felt completely confused and it made her very uncomfortable. (Note to HGVC: read your marks better, when you are talking to a shrink and a research analyst, the obfuscation and rapid delivery of confusing facts does not make us more excited about buying; it makes us leery of what you're selling.) At this point we took a short break while she got out the "closer" or pricing guy. We told him right away the chances we would buy were very low because of the commitment of dollars upfront and the availability of resale at much lower prices. We talked for about 30 minutes, him trying to explain the advantages of HGVC and us asking clarifying questions, etc. It was perfectly cordial and I would characterize it as pretty low pressure - maybe low-medium pressure. After about 20 minutes the closer left, the sales rep spent about 10 more minutes with us, and that was it.
In general our strategy was to let them talk and not speak unless asked a direct question, and then to answer the question directly and honestly without emotions or excuses or falsehoods. As a result there were some unexpected periods of silence (which I'm used to in my job and can use to my advantage to create anxiety in a situation like this). This may have contributed to our rep's tendency to ramble and get off her talking points.
At the end they offered us a "VIP offer" of 7000 HGVC points to use within 18 months and up to 2 separate reservations at NYC, Hawaii, or Florida for $1700. We were sort of tempted but ultimately did not buy this because of the requirement to attend another sales presentation.
FWIW, the offer they talked the most about was 5000 points EOY deeded Las Vegas for $17,000 and $843 MF in the use years and $114 annual dues on the off years.
Claims/questions/observations:
1. They said that only 10% of HGVC reservations are made in the 12-9 month range, meaning 90% of ressies are available within 9 months. True or false? If true this implies availability of units without having to act at the earliest possible date.
2. They said that unless reserving at exactly 12 months out (or actually, in the 12-9 month window) was important, there was no advantage to owning at a particular resort and I should own at the place with the lowest MFs (ie, Las Vegas rather than Waikoloa). True or False?
3. They explained that within 30 days one could access "Open reservations" which appeared to be available for either points or cash (possibly at an excellent rate). We got confused here. Can you explain this to me?
4. When asked about resales they identified 3 disadvantages. First, ROFR which is apparently active right now. Second, one cannot achieve elite status, which I understand isn't worth much. Third, they said that if buying direct from the developer, one could buy additional points to add to their deed and that would not raise their MFs (up to 17,000 points per deed). Is the last claim true? Can you describe how someone might optimally use that to their advantage?
5. VIP package: what would 7000 points have gotten us? For example, could we have gotten 5 nights in NYC and 7 nights in Hilton Hawaiian Village? Or just one of those two? Would you have bought this? It seemed like an 'ok' deal but not a steal, especially since there were limitations on the usage of the points - for example, if used in Hawaii only a 7 night stay was permitted; if in NYC a 2 night minimum but 5 night maximum; etc.
6. Since there are only 53 HGVC properties our sales rep explained we could convert to Hilton Honors points to reserve at hotels. But I always thought this was a terrible use of points; that reserving for fewer than 7 nights would result in an even lesser value; and that I would only be reserving normal studio hotel rooms rather than the 1 BR or 2 BR suites available at HGVC properties. In other words, I could convert my HGVC points to HH points to reserve 4 nights at the Hilton Paris Arc de Triomphe but it wouldn't be very good value. Can you describe this conversion of HGVC to HH points and its worthwhileness? Is this option available for resale purchasers?
7. Throughout the presentation I had a hard time nailing down how much these rooms cost (in points). Is there a link to all the HGVC properties and how many points they cost and what the seasons are? How much would the 2 BR/2 BA at Kings' Land cost in the various seasons?
8. In addition to the purchase price and the maintenance fees, what are all the other fees associated with ownership? She sort of threw out membership fees in RCI, exchange fees for HGVC to HH, nightly fees for open season reservations, 'annual fees', etc. I got this gnawing feeling those fees could add up, depending on how one used ownership.
9. Once a property is built, do the points required stay the same forever, or are they subject to inflation?
10. Are included amenities such as use of adjacent hotel properties (such as Hilton Waikoloa at Kings' Land), free parking, free wi-fi contractually good for life or could HGVC rescind those at any time, resulting in devaluation of the ownership?
As I told the sales rep and closer, we are definitely interested in HGVC but just not ready to commit without doing further research (and I would only buy resale, thanks to TUG).
Any comments as to the pros/cons of HGVC vs Marriott would be appreciated. In the last 3 months we've stayed at Marriott Miami/Doral, Marriott Beachside Key West, Hilton Hawaiian Village Lagoon, and Hilton Waikoloa Kings' Land and based on those 4 stays the Hiltons seem a little nicer. Can you compare the properties and the flexibility/value of the 2 systems?
I would appreciate any and all comments/feedback!
PS - love the Waikoloa Kings' Land - absolutely top-notch quality, the rooms are absolutely silent, extremely well-built, very solid-feeling.
I'm in the middle of a package at Waikoloa Kings' Land and just completed the 2 hour presentation. Some thoughts and questions follow.
To start with, based on my reading at TUG I knew I was not going to buy. However, I wanted to hear what they had to say, as I am somewhat interested in buying resale.
My offer was: 5 d/4 n 2BR/2BA at Kings' Land Waikoloa, car rental, $200 SANU (stay a night on us at future Hilton portfolio hotel), and 2 luau tickets for about $849+.
The presentation:
We arrived at 1:03 pm for a 1 pm appointment and they had us waiting til about 1:20 pm before taking us back. I expected to be in a group presentation but it was just 1 sales rep and the 2 of us. She spent about 45 minutes explaining the HGVC system but regrettably she was somewhat disorganized and rambling and as a result my wife (who knows nothing about timesharing but a lot about survey and interview technique as a research analyst) says she felt completely confused and it made her very uncomfortable. (Note to HGVC: read your marks better, when you are talking to a shrink and a research analyst, the obfuscation and rapid delivery of confusing facts does not make us more excited about buying; it makes us leery of what you're selling.) At this point we took a short break while she got out the "closer" or pricing guy. We told him right away the chances we would buy were very low because of the commitment of dollars upfront and the availability of resale at much lower prices. We talked for about 30 minutes, him trying to explain the advantages of HGVC and us asking clarifying questions, etc. It was perfectly cordial and I would characterize it as pretty low pressure - maybe low-medium pressure. After about 20 minutes the closer left, the sales rep spent about 10 more minutes with us, and that was it.
In general our strategy was to let them talk and not speak unless asked a direct question, and then to answer the question directly and honestly without emotions or excuses or falsehoods. As a result there were some unexpected periods of silence (which I'm used to in my job and can use to my advantage to create anxiety in a situation like this). This may have contributed to our rep's tendency to ramble and get off her talking points.
At the end they offered us a "VIP offer" of 7000 HGVC points to use within 18 months and up to 2 separate reservations at NYC, Hawaii, or Florida for $1700. We were sort of tempted but ultimately did not buy this because of the requirement to attend another sales presentation.
FWIW, the offer they talked the most about was 5000 points EOY deeded Las Vegas for $17,000 and $843 MF in the use years and $114 annual dues on the off years.
Claims/questions/observations:
1. They said that only 10% of HGVC reservations are made in the 12-9 month range, meaning 90% of ressies are available within 9 months. True or false? If true this implies availability of units without having to act at the earliest possible date.
2. They said that unless reserving at exactly 12 months out (or actually, in the 12-9 month window) was important, there was no advantage to owning at a particular resort and I should own at the place with the lowest MFs (ie, Las Vegas rather than Waikoloa). True or False?
3. They explained that within 30 days one could access "Open reservations" which appeared to be available for either points or cash (possibly at an excellent rate). We got confused here. Can you explain this to me?
4. When asked about resales they identified 3 disadvantages. First, ROFR which is apparently active right now. Second, one cannot achieve elite status, which I understand isn't worth much. Third, they said that if buying direct from the developer, one could buy additional points to add to their deed and that would not raise their MFs (up to 17,000 points per deed). Is the last claim true? Can you describe how someone might optimally use that to their advantage?
5. VIP package: what would 7000 points have gotten us? For example, could we have gotten 5 nights in NYC and 7 nights in Hilton Hawaiian Village? Or just one of those two? Would you have bought this? It seemed like an 'ok' deal but not a steal, especially since there were limitations on the usage of the points - for example, if used in Hawaii only a 7 night stay was permitted; if in NYC a 2 night minimum but 5 night maximum; etc.
6. Since there are only 53 HGVC properties our sales rep explained we could convert to Hilton Honors points to reserve at hotels. But I always thought this was a terrible use of points; that reserving for fewer than 7 nights would result in an even lesser value; and that I would only be reserving normal studio hotel rooms rather than the 1 BR or 2 BR suites available at HGVC properties. In other words, I could convert my HGVC points to HH points to reserve 4 nights at the Hilton Paris Arc de Triomphe but it wouldn't be very good value. Can you describe this conversion of HGVC to HH points and its worthwhileness? Is this option available for resale purchasers?
7. Throughout the presentation I had a hard time nailing down how much these rooms cost (in points). Is there a link to all the HGVC properties and how many points they cost and what the seasons are? How much would the 2 BR/2 BA at Kings' Land cost in the various seasons?
8. In addition to the purchase price and the maintenance fees, what are all the other fees associated with ownership? She sort of threw out membership fees in RCI, exchange fees for HGVC to HH, nightly fees for open season reservations, 'annual fees', etc. I got this gnawing feeling those fees could add up, depending on how one used ownership.
9. Once a property is built, do the points required stay the same forever, or are they subject to inflation?
10. Are included amenities such as use of adjacent hotel properties (such as Hilton Waikoloa at Kings' Land), free parking, free wi-fi contractually good for life or could HGVC rescind those at any time, resulting in devaluation of the ownership?
As I told the sales rep and closer, we are definitely interested in HGVC but just not ready to commit without doing further research (and I would only buy resale, thanks to TUG).
Any comments as to the pros/cons of HGVC vs Marriott would be appreciated. In the last 3 months we've stayed at Marriott Miami/Doral, Marriott Beachside Key West, Hilton Hawaiian Village Lagoon, and Hilton Waikoloa Kings' Land and based on those 4 stays the Hiltons seem a little nicer. Can you compare the properties and the flexibility/value of the 2 systems?
I would appreciate any and all comments/feedback!
PS - love the Waikoloa Kings' Land - absolutely top-notch quality, the rooms are absolutely silent, extremely well-built, very solid-feeling.