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Just attended owner's presentation-Salesperson stated all my Club Points I elect are almost worthless UNLESS I buy Club Points as a hybrid system?!?!

sponger76

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You would really have to run a large number of searches at the same time with 3 different accounts: one that only has trust points, another one that has trust and elected points and a third one that only has enrolled weeks (elected points). You would need to run the searches over several days or weeks, at multiple resorts and as soon as the window opens and other times as well. If you read other comments, most come from those that have used their personal experience using just one account . Even so, you will see reports that Ritz St Thomas did require at one point a trust account. Was that the only time? I doubt Marriott would program the search filters just for one resort.
Or, and hear me out here, maybe people being able to book quality resorts during quality times using only elected points suggests that it's not a big deal to not have trust points. But that's just logic speaking, which you refuse to acknowledge if it doesn't fit your evil empire narrative.
 

timsi

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Or, and hear me out here, maybe people being able to book quality resorts during quality times using only elected points suggests that it's not a big deal to not have trust points. But that's just logic speaking, which you refuse to acknowledge if it doesn't fit your evil empire narrative.
Indeed you have a wild imagination, I did not say that the elected points are useless. It is just that if you want to prove that the inventory for elected points is the same as the inventory for the trust points (especially in accounts that are not hybrid), you need a lot more that what you did.
 

DavidnRobin

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"Simply because you do not have evidence that something exists does not mean that you have evidence that it doesn’t exist."
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Defense Secretary under GW Bush on existence of WMD in Iraq


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M Wyo

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It is difficult sometimes to determine if the salesperson is ignorant, or deceitful. We have experienced both. People who spend the time and effort to do their homework before buying something have a HUGE advantage. I spent the time to read the Abound materials then had an update prior to the program activation. The salesperson "tried" to sell us Club Points to get us to the Executive level......without the under stain that we were already grandfathered into the Executive level. She had to leave to ask her supervisor....and when she returned, she had the temerity to tell me I was mistaken. In 5 minutes I pulled up the table that proved my point. She said thank you, got up and left.

I pity the people who are subjected to this stuff without knowing what they are doing.

I'm kinda dismayed how much "time" it takes to figure out where/when you want to go and if you are getting a deal or not. I'm sure there are deals to be had, it just takes time, effort, and a calculator to figure it out.
 

SteelerGal

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I own Vistana/ Marriott/Hyatt. It will be interesting how Abound inventory will look in he future. As a MVC owner after 2010, I still go where I want to go using Interval. Yes, I am hassled by a school calendar but after Covid has showed many parents, learning can happen anywhere.
 

grrrah

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It is difficult sometimes to determine if the salesperson is ignorant, or deceitful. We have experienced both. People who spend the time and effort to do their homework before buying something have a HUGE advantage. I spent the time to read the Abound materials then had an update prior to the program activation. The salesperson "tried" to sell us Club Points to get us to the Executive level......without the under stain that we were already grandfathered into the Executive level. She had to leave to ask her supervisor....and when she returned, she had the temerity to tell me I was mistaken. In 5 minutes I pulled up the table that proved my point. She said thank you, got up and left.

I pity the people who are subjected to this stuff without knowing what they are doing.

I'm kinda dismayed how much "time" it takes to figure out where/when you want to go and if you are getting a deal or not. I'm sure there are deals to be had, it just takes time, effort, and a calculator to figure it out.
I honestly think they may not know all and miss a few small details here and there. But for the most part they are trying to stretch the truth and being deceitful by choosing their words carefully to avoid a flat out lie. Once you call them out on it and they realize you/we know our stuff, then they will play ignorant to the broader stuff. They know all their tricks to get money from us, and that's how they make their salary.

The separation of week deposits vs club point/trust inventory is something that they CAN do by contract wording, but don't in practice. This allows they to say stuff like "your points WILL be worthless" (if the practice ever changes, which it can legally). There is more reason for them to keep the inventory combined than not, but the future ability allows them to scare/sell more.
 

sponger76

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Indeed you have a wild imagination, I did not say that the elected points are useless. It is just that if you want to prove that the inventory for elected points is the same as the inventory for the trust points (especially in accounts that are not hybrid), you need a lot more that what you did.
Well, it seems people who have elected points have mentioned seeing the same inventory as people with trust points. But you dismiss it out of hand and demand a rigorous experiment involving a lot more effort and therefore is not too likely to happen, just so you have a reason to dismiss other people's views and experience because it doesn't fit your preferred narrative.
 

M Wyo

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Just completed our owner update At WDW. We must have been a member of the “new flock”. After many years of endless hype and the climactic rollout of Abound, we sat for 90 minutes and listened to the pitch dissing Abound unless we purchased 1000 CP for $15k giving access to the “Trust” inventory. Furthermore, available inventory will systematically be reduced as reclaimed VSN contracts get absorbed into the “Trust”. I smiled and asked, “is there any documentation or contract literature, or supporting statistics you can show me or direct me to to support this”. Of course, the answer was no. The only evidence he provided was to show a week in the Maldives for 4000CP (clearly a staged plant).

Not to mention that our Executive status (grandfathered for being VSN elite) is in jeopardy if MVC raises status thresholds as they did in 2015. He went speechless for about a nano second when I showed him that we maintain our executive status as long as we maintain our current VSN holdings.

Takeaway…..these owner updates are NOT your friends. MVC has new fertile flock to terrorize exclusive VSN owners into buying CP for direct access into MVC. What a scam. I am so glad we escaped unscathed.

Dear Mr Marriott…..wouldn’t it be a better way to sell this product if you develop a detailed on paper/online presentation/proposal with data and a convincing argument on why we should buy your product, instead of these used car salesmen dropouts who expect you to drop $15k in a 90minute pitch with no data that essentially tell you you need to buy because what you previously bought is crap and getting crapier as time goes on?
 
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jeffm211

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Just completed our owner update At WDW. We must have been a member of the “new flock”. After many years of endless hype and the climactic rollout of Abound, we sat for 90 minutes and listed to the pitch dissing Abound unless we purchased 1000 CP for $15k giving access to the “Trust” inventory. Furthermore, available inventory will systematically be reduced as reclaimed VSN contracts get absorbed into the “Trust”. I smiled and asked, “is there any documentation or contract literature, or supporting statistics you can show me or direct me to to support this”. Of course, the answer was no. The only evidence he provided was to show a week in the Maldives for 4000CP (clearly a staged plant).

Not to mention that our Executive status (grandfathered for being VSN elite) is in jeopardy if MVC raises status thresholds as they did in 2015. He went speechless for about a nano second when I showed him that we maintain our executive status as long as we maintain our current VSN holdings.

Takeaway…..these owner updates are NOT your friends. MVC has new fertile flock to terrorize exclusive VSN owners into buying CP for direct access into MVC. What a scam. I am so glad we escaped unscathed.

Dear Mr Marriott…..wouldn’t it be a better way to sell this product if you develop a detailed on paper/online presentation/proposal with data and a convincing argument on why we should buy your product, instead of these used car salesmen dropouts who expect you to drop $15k in a 90minute pitch with no data that essentially telling you you need to buy because what you previously bought is crap and getting crapier as time goes on?
Sounds similar to the pitch we heard in October before the launch. They’re greedy; they’d probably get a lot more bites, & subsequently more VSN inventory, if the bite was $5K for 500 points.
 

DanCali

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Takeaway…..these owner updates are NOT your friends. MVC has new fertile flock to terrorize exclusive VSN owners into buying CP for direct access into MVC. What a scam. I am so glad we escaped unscathed.

Dear Mr Marriott…..wouldn’t it be a better way to sell this product if you develop a detailed on paper/online presentation/proposal with data and a convincing argument on why we should buy your product, instead of these used car salesmen dropouts who expect you to drop $15k in a 90minute pitch with no data that essentially tell you you need to buy because what you previously bought is crap and getting crapier as time goes on?


There are multiple similarities to the process of buying a used car. Both rely on asymmetric information where the salesperson knows more about the product than the buyer. Both rely on the process of letting you "stew" while they "talk to their boss and try to get you the best deal". But while you may lose 10%-15% when you "drive the car off the lot", with timeshares you lose 70%-80% once your right to rescind ends. The financing interest rates on timeshares are about double that of cars (and, according to annual filings, over half the buyers finance with average financing being 70%+ of the purchase price). And cars are a necessity you go in with the intent to buy, while timeshares are not a necessity where you go to a presentation for a token gift. So, I wouldn't call these salespeople "used car salesmen dropouts". It takes great talent to sell something that most buyers don't really need and don't walk in intending to buy, and where the product depreciates by 70%+ 10 days later. If you walk in uninformed about the resale market, chat for 90 minutes and they push the right buttons, you are probably more likely to buy something than not.
 

M Wyo

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There are multiple similarities to the process of buying a used car. Both rely on asymmetric information where the salesperson knows more about the product than the buyer. Both rely on the process of letting you "stew" while they "talk to their boss and try to get you the best deal". But while you may lose 10%-15% when you "drive the car off the lot", with timeshares you lose 70%-80% once your right to rescind ends. The financing interest rates on timeshares are about double that of cars (and, according to annual filings, over half the buyers finance with average financing being 70%+ of the purchase price). And cars are a necessity you go in with the intent to buy, while timeshares are not a necessity where you go to a presentation for a token gift. So, I wouldn't call these salespeople "used car salesmen dropouts". It takes great talent to sell something that most buyers don't really need and don't walk in intending to buy, and where the product depreciates by 70%+ 10 days later. If you walk in uninformed about the resale market, chat for 90 minutes and they push the right buttons, you are probably more likely to buy something than not.
I’d never buy a car without driving it and doing my home work. And I’m not buying CP because he “says” the inventory available to me is limited and shrinking…..without proof or data. Give me a brochure, or a video proposal, with data, so I can make an informed decision. Else, good chance he’s pushing bs. We are all here…..and got hooked at some point. So you are right…..these are skilled people that eclipse used car salesmen and have even less scruples. Never attending another ”update” unless I really want the $200.
 

dioxide45

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They are now using the sales trick that MVC salespeople have used for the past decade.
 

frank808

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Hmm...scripts seems very familiar. Exact same half truths and out right lies from July 2010 when the DP program was introduced.

Seems the new "playbook" has been reused again and it probably didn't cost MVC much to update. Look at all the new sheep we can use the 12 year old pitch on.

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I was also at SDO this week and told that I had no status (didn’t have any before) and that my resales would not “play” in the new system. I was also told that Vistana would eventually go away and that I will not be able to reserve my deeded weeks any time before 8 months and then I likely wouldn’t be able to book because the 247,000 MVC owners will have taken all the inventory. I was lightly pitched 750 DPs, the minimum that could sold through 2022, for $12.5k with a “special” of 1000 for $15k (not sure where the math is, but was told DPs were currently $16.41 and would only increase).

As it relates to status, I stated that I thought I did have status and the agent ran to get the manager because I must be mistaken. The manager confirmed that I was mistaken and when I consulted my dashboard, I was told the “system” was mistaken. I was advised to not inquire about said mistake and to reserve my weeks ASAP. Further, that if I inquired, MVC would realize their mistake and strip me of my status.

I made my first purchase EOY 2018 during the Marriott Starwood merger. I was advised to buy Sheraton Flex, though Westin Flex was just starting to roll out. I was told deeded weeks were no longer sold. Oddly, I have since learned that deeded weeks are/were indeed available to be sold. As the story evolves, MVWW purchases SV & WV in 2019. I was urged to purchase more so that I can ”authorize” my (mandatory) resales because I would otherwise not be able to reserve anything other than my deeded resort (bc Vistana was going away).

The moral of this long story is that I am tired of this crap. I go to every update with genuine curiosity. I make it clear at every update that I do not understand what the heck they are talking about, and have them walk me through everything AGAIN. Their tactics are simply misleading. I would love to subpoena their training materials / change communications or for a whistleblower to come forward. These are not poorly trained unprofessional salespeople, quite the opposite. I would argue, therefore, their conduct constitutes intentional misrepresentation of material facts that results in some people entering into binding contracts to their detriment.
 

dioxide45

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The moral of this long story is that I am tired of this crap. I go to every update with genuine curiosity.
That is your first mistake. You go for the free gifts, you come to TUG to fill the need for curiosity...
 

DanCali

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I was also at SDO this week and told that I had no status (didn’t have any before) and that my resales would not “play” in the new system. I was also told that Vistana would eventually go away and that I will not be able to reserve my deeded weeks any time before 8 months and then I likely wouldn’t be able to book because the 247,000 MVC owners will have taken all the inventory. I was lightly pitched 750 DPs, the minimum that could sold through 2022, for $12.5k with a “special” of 1000 for $15k (not sure where the math is, but was told DPs were currently $16.41 and would only increase).

As it relates to status, I stated that I thought I did have status and the agent ran to get the manager because I must be mistaken. The manager confirmed that I was mistaken and when I consulted my dashboard, I was told the “system” was mistaken. I was advised to not inquire about said mistake and to reserve my weeks ASAP. Further, that if I inquired, MVC would realize their mistake and strip me of my status.

I made my first purchase EOY 2018 during the Marriott Starwood merger. I was advised to buy Sheraton Flex, though Westin Flex was just starting to roll out. I was told deeded weeks were no longer sold. Oddly, I have since learned that deeded weeks are/were indeed available to be sold. As the story evolves, MVWW purchases SV & WV in 2019. I was urged to purchase more so that I can ”authorize” my (mandatory) resales because I would otherwise not be able to reserve anything other than my deeded resort (bc Vistana was going away).

The moral of this long story is that I am tired of this crap. I go to every update with genuine curiosity. I make it clear at every update that I do not understand what the heck they are talking about, and have them walk me through everything AGAIN. Their tactics are simply misleading. I would love to subpoena their training materials / change communications or for a whistleblower to come forward. These are not poorly trained unprofessional salespeople, quite the opposite. I would argue, therefore, their conduct constitutes intentional misrepresentation of material facts that results in some people entering into binding contracts to their detriment.

I just go for the points with the understanding that I will be lied to. Once they realize I won't buy they ask me why I bother coming and say it's because we were told it was an "Owner Update" and we were curious about the new changes (somehow there are always "changes"). Then they tell me that I should know "Owner Updates" are actually sales presentations and I shouldn't go in the future if I don't want to buy. To that I respond that I will stop going when they stop calling them "Owner Updates" and start calling them "Sales Presentations"...

During these "Updates" my wife always elbows me to not talk back and call them out on bs... On rare occasions we get a guy who is more honest, and we have a decent conversation. One guy who was a straight shooter and hustled to get us an extra very substantial benefit we requested that seemed impossible at the time even managed to make a sale with us. I would never buy from someone who gives me the kind of nonsense you describe, but the fearmongering must work on less knowledgeable owners. And there is a lot of fogginess and asymmetric information right now with the launch of Abound...

This stuff has been going on for decades and I just assume what they do is legal. Maybe sketchy or even unethical, but legal. Just go unwind at the pool for a couple of hours after the presentation (+ a couple of drinks) and enjoy your vacation!
 

daviator

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I just go for the points with the understanding that I will be lied to. Once they realize I won't buy they ask me why I bother coming and say it's because we were told it was an "Owner Update" and we were curious about the new changes (somehow there are always "changes"). Then they tell me that I should know "Owner Updates" are actually sales presentations and I shouldn't go in the future if I don't want to buy. To that I respond that I will stop going when they stop calling them "Owner Updates" and start calling them "Sales Presentations"...

During these "Updates" my wife always elbows me to not talk back and call them out on bs... On rare occasions we get a guy who is more honest, and we have a decent conversation. One guy who was a straight shooter and hustled to get us an extra very substantial benefit we requested that seemed impossible at the time even managed to make a sale with us. I would never buy from someone who gives me the kind of nonsense you describe, but the fearmongering must work on less knowledgeable owners. And there is a lot of fogginess and asymmetric information right now with the launch of Abound...

This stuff has been going on for decades and I just assume what they do is legal. Maybe sketchy or even unethical, but legal. Just go unwind at the pool for a couple of hours after the presentation (+ a couple of drinks) and enjoy your vacation!
Agree 100%. I have bought from the developer on multiple occasions when the sales person has been honest, but that's been very hard to find in recent years. And as soon as they tell me something that I know to be a lie, then I am forced to assume that everything else they are telling me is also likely to be a lie. After all, the only thing I know with certainty, at that point, is that the salesperson is a liar. It just seems like such a bad way to sell anything, but I suppose it works on many people or they wouldn't do it.

I don't usually like to get confrontational with them, but once I realize I am talking to a liar, I kind of start tuning them out. Or I listen with great interest to hear what other whoppers they will spin for me. But any interest I had in purchasing evaporates at the first untruth.
 

dioxide45

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I just go for the points with the understanding that I will be lied to. Once they realize I won't buy they ask me why I bother coming and say it's because we were told it was an "Owner Update" and we were curious about the new changes (somehow there are always "changes"). Then they tell me that I should know "Owner Updates" are actually sales presentations and I shouldn't go in the future if I don't want to buy. To that I respond that I will stop going when they stop calling them "Owner Updates" and start calling them "Sales Presentations"...
We tread kind of carefully around this question about why we attend. If I was fully 100% truthful, I would say "I am here for the free gift and nothing but the free gift. Stop inviting me and I won't come". WIth that, I want the gig to last as long as possible. The Bonvoy points help replenish what we use and the points have made for some great trips and great stays. We will ride it as long as possible and I am sure a day will come when they stop asking, maybe...
 

rickandcindy23

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We tread kind of carefully around this question about why we attend. If I was fully 100% truthful, I would say "I am here for the free gift and nothing but the free gift. Stop inviting me and I won't come". WIth that, I want the gig to last as long as possible. The Bonvoy points help replenish what we use and the points have made for some great trips and great stays. We will ride it as long as possible and I am sure a day will come when they stop asking, maybe...
In the past, there are those of us who have said exactly this, and we have been treated like we were criminals. There are people who have actually said we are wasting the time of the salespeople.

Rick would rather not go, I like going because I can cover the extra TAT fees or buy a meal out with the money. I don't feel that I am wasting all that much time. I am not always on the go during vacation. We take some days off.

We are never invited to Wyndham tours. I wonder why? Just kidding. I know why. We are former mega renters.
 

Eric B

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In the past, there are those of us who have said exactly this, and we have been treated like we were criminals. There are people who have actually said we are wasting the time of the salespeople.

Rick would rather not go, I like going because I can cover the extra TAT fees or buy a meal out with the money. I don't feel that I am wasting all that much time. I am not always on the go during vacation. We take some days off.

We are never invited to Wyndham tours. I wonder why? Just kidding. I know why. We are former mega renters.
Well, it wastes the time of the salespeople much less if they just give you the gifts and get you out of there quickly....
 

cubigbird

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Imagine if sales were honest, time would not be wasted. Just sayin’……
 

rickandcindy23

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Well, it wastes the time of the salespeople much less if they just give you the gifts and get you out of there quickly....
Which is always the goal, right?
 

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I just attended a sales presentation at SDO (one of the more miserable ones I have ever experienced). I am Chairman's Club and I own only in the Vistana system (no native Marriott ownership). Almost all of my purchases were mandatory resales except for a couple of developer purchases to authorize/qualify some voluntary properties such as Westin Lagunamar. I do not own a flex week product such as Westin or Sheraton Flex. I only own actual deeded weeks in the Vistana system. The main questions for the group/forum is that he told me if I elect Abound/Club Points for my deeded weeks I will have little to no (<10%) actual Marriott inventory to choose from because I will be stuck with only the legacy weeks Marriott inventory, not the main bucket (90+%) of Marriott inventory from Club Points owners. He said the only way to have access to ALL of the inventory is to purchase Abound Points which would create a "linkage" as a hybrid ownership (legacy weeks from Vistana and owning Abound Points from Marriott).

He said Marriott only sells Abound Points in a minimum of 2,500 Abound Points, but through the end of 2022 ONLY I could get the "special deal" of just having to buy 1,000 Abound Points for $15,000. This would allow me to have access to all the Marriott inventory. Can forum members (Denise?) comment on what he is saying. I'm looking for answers and clarification on what inventory I have access to electing Club Points (Abound)? If it truly is just residual legacy weeks inventory then that sounds like a scam. I called BS on his story. I told him he was either ignorant and and wrong or just lying and neither helped me at that point, and he got mad and walked out. Ended my update only 30 min in. Thanks in advance for comments and clarifications from what others have heard.
My simple response would be, if MVC is going to change rules like this and screw owners, why would I ever buy anything from you? Simply lies and sales tactics.
 
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79
Resorts Owned
Maui Ocean Club Napili building, Lawai Beach Resort
A timeshare sales license? Is that like a used car sales license?
They have to have a real estate license in order to sell timeshare deeds.

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