Jobs-not a eulogy of praise

[pgnewarkboy]

Much has been said in praise of Steve Jobs. This thread balances the praise with another part of his life that is not worthy of praise.

Jobs created millions of jobs IN CHINA where he permitted the Chinese government to work their apple factory employees to SUICIDE. These people could barely survive on their meager wages much less afford the least expensive apple products they made.

Jobs neither did or said anything about this horror until the stench drew criticism around the world. Bottom line is jobs made a fortune for himself and apple share holders at the expense of others forced to work for slave wages.

 

[Kona Lovers]

Sadly, probably the same could be said for several (insert name of executive) for many (insert name of company) these days.

 

[ronparise]

absolutely right...of course none of us had to buy any of it...but we did

 

[ScoopKona]

absolutely right...of course none of us had to buy any of it...but we did

Speak for yourself. I didn't buy any of it.

I've been Apple-free since 1976.

 

[Ken555]

I'm of mixed mind whether this is appropriate or not at the death of such an influential and successful individual, but I'll go with it...

Apple is simply being a good corporate citizen. And that means being successful, surviving and growing for their shareholders in every legal way. Other American (and other) companies produce products in China. Apple's policy protects workers and they audit those factories in China, but often the Chinese companies cut corners. Apple can't audit them every day. And, Apple simply pays the going rate of employment - it's a market economy they work in, and if the Chinese market improved to the point where wages were higher, then those employees would benefit.

There was a time I also blamed companies for paying low wages abroad in order to produce their products, but I know better now. This is a direct result of our continual pressure on corporations to produce ever increasing profit. You can't have it both ways given the current reality of global labor costs. So let's not blame Apple for simply pursuing the standard and instead try to find a solution that makes it better for all...not sure it's possible in the current environment, though, since at least in the USA (and Europe) anything relating to social programs or worker rights is a low priority given the economic reality.

 

[Ken555]

Speak for yourself. I didn't buy any of it.

I've been Apple-free since 1976.

I suspect you've benefited by the same low wages in China with other products you've bought over the years.

 

[ScoopKona]

I suspect you've benefited by the same low wages in China with other products you've bought over the years.

I buy American and Taiwanese products. I've been to the plants in Taiwan. I've got family who work there. I wouldn't mind working at one, so I'm OK buying from them.

 

[Ken555]

I buy American and Taiwanese products. I've been to the plants in Taiwan. I've got family who work there. I wouldn't mind working at one, so I'm OK buying from them.

Not buying anything produced in China is an achievement. I'm not sure how I could do the same.

 

[bogey21]

I walked around Walmart yesterday and wandered into men's clothing. Golf shirts for $5; T shirst for $3; socks for $1 per pair; pants for $10 etc. The thought that went through my mind is this. We ship the jobs overseas for the cheap labor. It puts people out of work. Many of these people collect unemployment compensations and are eligible for food stamps which when coupled with the low priced, foreign labor produced goods allows them to survive. Only in America.

George

 

[pgnewarkboy]

I'm of mixed mind whether this is appropriate or not at the death of such an influential and successful individual, but I'll go with it...

Apple is simply being a good corporate citizen. And that means being successful, surviving and growing for their shareholders in every legal way. Other American (and other) companies produce products in China. Apple's policy protects workers and they audit those factories in China, but often the Chinese companies cut corners. Apple can't audit them every day. And, Apple simply pays the going rate of employment - it's a market economy they work in, and if the Chinese market improved to the point where wages were higher, then those employees would benefit.

There was a time I also blamed companies for paying low wages abroad in order to produce their products, but I know better now. This is a direct result of our continual pressure on corporations to produce ever increasing profit. You can't have it both ways given the current reality of global labor costs. So let's not blame Apple for simply pursuing the standard and instead try to find a solution that makes it better for all...not sure it's possible in the current environment, though, since at least in the USA (and Europe) anything relating to social programs or worker rights is a low priority given the economic reality.

Ken you just stated " THE EVERYBODY'S DOING ARGUMENT "

Parents everywhere reject that argument from their children because "wrong is still wrong no matter how many people do something. " Steve Jobs ran one of the richest companies in the world. His products are expensive and don't reflect the low labor costs. He was more interested in obscene profits than the suffering of the people that made his products. There's no excuse for his actions.

 

[JeffW]

Since this thread is a little on the anti-Jobs bandwagon....

After watching the reports praising his creation of the Mac (PC GUI interface), ipod (music), iphone (phone), ipad (tabet), my question is....

did he do all of this himself??? I know the news has shown pictures of him pulling the original Mac out of a bag and showing if the for first time. But I also know there were a slew of developers and designers (on the original Mac 128k, their names are all stamped on the inside cover).

I'm not saying Jobs wasn't an inspiring leader, but with supposedly now 47k employees worldwide, are you telling me there is no one else that deserves praise for the products they've developed?

Off on a tangent: on the NBC Today Show this morning, it was good that after they did the video montage to him, the first person they interviewed was Steven Wozniak. For those that had Apple II's or Mac's, and 'Apple' was 'Apple Computer', tought to think of commentary on Steve Jobs without Steven Wozniak participating.

Jeff

 

[geekette]

Ken you just stated " THE EVERYBODY'S DOING ARGUMENT "

Parents everywhere reject that argument from their children because "wrong is still wrong no matter how many people do something. " Steve Jobs ran one of the richest companies in the world. His products are expensive and don't reflect the low labor costs. He was more interested in obscene profits than the suffering of the people that made his products. There's no excuse for his actions.

The man is dead. Died young. Why did you wait for him to die to vocalize what you seem to think is him leading the charge to China?

How you can blame him alone for what you perceive as wrong is beyond me. He was younger than most heads of companies shipping jobs overseas. Why are you not calling them out on this kind of decision? Why do you not boycott every company that ships jobs overseas? Where was your outrage years ago when this crap started? Jobs didn't start this trend.

Labor may have been cheap, but you fail to factor in R&D, Very Expensive, especially in technology. Show me the true cost of bringing the products to market, not just cost of labor. How many software engineers do you know that are "cheap labor?"

Ask the shareholders if there is an excuse for "his" actions. How many people on Tug own Apple stock? how many sold it for a profit?

How many of them went to shareholder meetings to demand an end to cheap labor? Did you???

 

[ScoopKona]

Not buying anything produced in China is an achievement. I'm not sure how I could do the same.

1) I don't have a love affair with electronic gizmos. My "Japanese" TV was made in Mexico. I only buy ASUS motherboards, made in Taiwan. Most of the chips (and hard drives) were made in Malaysia. (I'll concede that Malaysia has their fair share of sweatshops. But it's damned near impossible to buy any electronic gizmo that doesn't have Malaysian chips.) My MP3 player was made in Korea, as was my LG cell phone. My Siemans landline phone was made in the USA.

2) I won't buy ANY food products that came from the PRC. Nothing. I don't want any lead, mercury, arsenic, melamine, plutonium or bat guano in my food. Most of my food comes from the US, preferably from farmers I know. I buy vegetables from the local farm (yes, we have one in Las Vegas.) I know the rancher who supplies my beef. I know the farmer who raises and butchers my pigs. I also have a vegetable garden, and grow approximately 10% of the food I eat.

3) Most of my shirts came from bars I've visited. And yes, I check the label. And if it's made someplace with a bad human rights or labor record, I don't buy. And I tell the barkeep why I'm not buying. I also buy Hawaiian shirts -- made in Hawaii Hawaiian shirts. Union made, preferably. My shoes come from Germany. My Dickies and Pointerbrand pants are made in America.

So while I won't say that nothing in my house comes from the PRC or Pakistan or any of the other "nogoodnik" countries out there, I CAN say that I do everything possible to know where my stuff comes from. And to be a conscientious world citizen.

 

[dmharris]

WOW! Ye without sin cast the first stone.

 

[rapmarks]

http://www.yummymath.com/2011/steve-jobs-1955-2011/

My son created a Steve jobs math problem on his web site

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Ken you just stated " THE EVERYBODY'S DOING ARGUMENT "

Parents everywhere reject that argument from their children because "wrong is still wrong no matter how many people do something. " Steve Jobs ran one of the richest companies in the world. His products are expensive and don't reflect the low labor costs. He was more interested in obscene profits than the suffering of the people that made his products. There's no excuse for his actions.

I trust that you are sufficiently open-minded to accept that other people can arrive at a different opinion and rejoice that we can have diversity in opinion.

 

[Ken555]

Ken you just stated " THE EVERYBODY'S DOING ARGUMENT "

Parents everywhere reject that argument from their children because "wrong is still wrong no matter how many people do something. " Steve Jobs ran one of the richest companies in the world. His products are expensive and don't reflect the low labor costs. He was more interested in obscene profits than the suffering of the people that made his products. There's no excuse for his actions.

Why should Apple be held to a higher standard? Because they've been successful? What would you suggest is an acceptable profit margin for Apple that would not earn your belief that their product prices "don't reflect the low labor costs"?

I'm a huge proponent of human rights, but I also understand the economic and political reality which intrudes into these issues. Unless there are specific rules that are enforced equally amongst all manufacturers, there is very little reason to be significantly better than the competition.

 

[ScoopKona]

Why should Apple be held to a higher standard? Because they've been successful? What would you suggest is an acceptable profit margin for Apple that would not earn your belief that their product prices "don't reflect the low labor costs"?

I'm a huge proponent of human rights, but I also understand the economic and political reality which intrudes into these issues. Unless there are specific rules that are enforced equally amongst all manufacturers, there is very little reason to be significantly better than the competition.

What's wrong with doing the right thing, simply because it's the right thing to do?

Any company with a slogan of "Think Different" or "Don't be Evil" -- I'm holding them to a higher standard.

 

[dioxide45]

What's wrong with doing the right thing, simply because it's the right thing to do?

Why is manufacturing in the USA any more right than overseas? The problem I see is that the US labor force priced itself out of the market. They made themselves uncompetitive with the rest of the world. Blame the unions or whoever you want. The problem is that it is far more expensive to manufacture in the USA than it is abroad. That isn't Jobs' fault.

 

[ricoba]

While I was not "smitten" with Jobs, like my supervisor was, I do think it's a bit early to denigrate his contribution to our world....What's that old saying about not speaking ill of the dead?

 

[Talent312]

While I was not "smitten" with Jobs, like my supervisor was, I do think it's a bit early to denigrate his contribution to our world....What's that old saying about not speaking ill of the dead?

I do not own, nor ever owned, an Apple product. IMHO, their products are shiny, pretty toys, long on style and short on functionality. Their competitors, including MS, usually did it better and for less. His ideas were not particularly revolutionary. Many were derived from other sources.

But he did have ability make us think we needed what he had created.

So, I respect and honor Jobs, not for turning Apple into the mega-corp it is today, but for his influence on our culture -- how we use computers, how we listen to music, how movies are made, how we communicate and connect.

 

[ricoba]

I do not own, nor ever owned, an Apple product. IMHO, their products are shiny, pretty toys, long on style and short on functionality. Their competitors, including MS, usually did it better and for less. His ideas were not particularly revolutionary. Many were derived from other sources.

But he did have ability make us think we needed what he had created.

So, I respect and honor Jobs, not for turning Apple into the mega-corp it is today, but for his influence on our culture -- how we use computers, how we listen to music, how movies are made, how we communicate and connect.

Well said.

 

[Clemson Fan]

Sour grapes from sour people!

R.I.P. Steve

 

[pgnewarkboy]

There is a thread on this bb dedicated to praising Jobs. I stated at the outset that this thread was not about praise. It is about a balanced picture of an historic figure.

For all of those who feel they can find justification for causing unnecessary suffering to others in order to make a BIGGGGER Buck - you are not alone. History is full of examples how misery is created while others stick their head in the sand, deny the truth, and find excuses for the horrific behavior of others.

 

[pgnewarkboy]

I trust that you are sufficiently open-minded to accept that other people can arrive at a different opinion and rejoice that we can have diversity in opinion.

I am not open minded to people paying slave wages. Its amazing to me that people who consider themselves (not you personally) to be the guardians of morals and ethics can justify the horrific treatment of other people in the name of making money. There are people all across the United States who rail against "moral relativism" and claim there is an absolute right and a wrong yet extoll people who commit immoral acts against others to make a buck. These are the same people who shout at the top of their lungs with faces red from anger that "America is Exceptional". We are better than everyone else. How blind can you be? I dare to cite a simple fact of history, a simple truth about a man that in addition to whatever else he has done, he has created misery for others and out come the defenders of misery.