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It's time to pick up some Platinum weeks for cheap

BocaBum99

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Since Marriott is not exercising ROFR, it's time to pick up some good Platinum weeks for cheap.

My criteria would be platinum weeks with sustainably modest MF that are good drive-to locations for rentals (1.5-2.0 times MF) that can be locked off and will likely have great future trade value.

In the past, Manor Club and Branson were considered decent traders with relatively low MF.

What are the Marriott's that are 2 bedroom lock offs that have MF less than $1000 per year and have great trading power which is likely to continue in the future? The rentals for these units need to be at least $1500-2000 as well.

My guess is that you pick them up for $.50 on the dollar or less. When Marriott starts exercising again, you will earn a superior return.

By the way, same is true of other high end timeshare resorts.
 

Dave M

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What are the Marriott's that are 2 bedroom lock offs that have MF less than $1000 per year and have great trading power which is likely to continue in the future?
You can see the history of MFs for all Marriott resorts - back to 2001 - in the historical MF database accessible from the FAQs for this forum and from the Marriott section of TUG Advice. Then it should be realtively easy to discern trading power (now and ongoing) based on location.
 

thinze3

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.... What are the Marriott's that are 2 bedroom lock offs that have MF less than $1000 per year and have great trading power which is likely to continue in the future? The rentals for these units need to be at least $1500-2000 as well.

My guess is that you pick them up for $.50 on the dollar or less....

Beachplace Towers. Renovations are just completed and maintenence fess haven't changed much at all in three years.

I just bought one for much less than what you mentioned (waiting on the process). I am still in the market for another Marriott and would also consider Starwood and other high end resorts companies.

Terry
 

Transit

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When everything sorts itself out and prices begin to recover .How will the resorts with lots of blue weeks fare ? There are plenty of great resorts with Plat units for sale but many carry a ton of blue weeks.
 

timeos2

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Off season time is a real problem. Always has been.

When everything sorts itself out and prices begin to recover .How will the resorts with lots of blue weeks fare ? There are plenty of great resorts with Plat units for sale but many carry a ton of blue weeks.

Off season (Blue) time is a problem for any resort - Marriott or not. They will get hit hardest with drop outs from the current crunch and will be hard to impossible to remarket when the turnaround happens just as they were initially. Except now they are saddled with much higher fees than when sold from the developer making the potential value lower than it already was. In the long run it may mean higher fees for the better weeks as they have to pick up the slack from those unwanted times. Or it may be mitigated to some degree if the resorts figure out a way to more fairly distribute the costs (points?) so the better weeks pay more, the less demanded weeks less. Either way it appears the Red times are in for even more fee increases as this shakes out.
 

dioxide45

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You may be able to meet all your criteria except for the rental rates. It would be tough to rent a TS week for 1.5 - 2X MF. Many people are lucky to even rent for what they pay in MF. Personally it makes no sense to buy a week now as rental rates are low. If you are thinking long term, then now is definitly the time to buy.
 

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Since Marriott is not exercising ROFR, it's time to pick up some good Platinum weeks for cheap.

My criteria would be platinum weeks with sustainably modest MF that are good drive-to locations for rentals (1.5-2.0 times MF) that can be locked off and will likely have great future trade value.

In the past, Manor Club and Branson were considered decent traders with relatively low MF.

What are the Marriott's that are 2 bedroom lock offs that have MF less than $1000 per year and have great trading power which is likely to continue in the future? The rentals for these units need to be at least $1500-2000 as well.

My guess is that you pick them up for $.50 on the dollar or less. When Marriott starts exercising again, you will earn a superior return.

By the way, same is true of other high end timeshare resorts.

Hi Boca Jim,

I understand your logic and reasoning, but I think you'll have a tough time finding Marriotts that meet your criteria. Neither Manor Club nor Horizons Branson are likely to rent for two times their maintenance fees. I have stayed at both resorts and used to own at Manor Club. They are great places, but both Williamsburg and Branson are extremely overbuilt with timeshares. Consequently, exchanges into these resorts are easy and rents are very low.

A couple other Marriotts with relatively low fees that are located an easy drive from major population centers are Fairway Villas in New Jersey and Legend's Edge in Panama City Beach, FL. However, neither of these locations are on the beach (even though they are in beach areas). Exchanges are easy and rents are low.

One that might make sense is Marriott's Canyon Villas in Phoenix. If you can get a platinum week for cheap, and IF you can reserve a prime March week, then you may get some pretty good rental income. However, the north Phoenix/Scottsdale area has a lot of competition when it comes to high quality timeshares. Both the Four Seasons and the Westin Kierland Villas are, in my opinion, nicer than the Marriott. Also, the true prime season is pretty short in this area. Nevertheless, this is one resort that it might make sense to own based on your criteria.

Steve

Steve
 

Big Matt

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What happens if a bunch of people decide to walk away? Marriott does'nt take a hit (even if they foreclose, they get the week back), but the owners do. I"m concerned about how my maintenance fees will increase. Buying now, may award the winner a huge assessment to pay for those who defaulted.

JMO, or course.
 

PerryM

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Ho Ho Ho...

Since Marriott is not exercising ROFR, it's time to pick up some good Platinum weeks for cheap.
...
My guess is that you pick them up for $.50 on the dollar or less. When Marriott starts exercising again, you will earn a superior return.

By the way, same is true of other high end timeshare resorts.


Gee I get slammed for talking like that – folks here now into the timeshare investment market? Buy low sell high? (Remember; it's not the other way around) And just who could sell you these great bargains?

So let me get this right – Marriott stops exercising the ROFR and prices fall – one can then conclude that the ROFR supports higher prices. Q.E.D.

Wow, this is a great Christmas present to myself.

Happy holidays everyone.
 

dioxide45

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So let me get this right – Marriott stops exercising the ROFR and prices fall – one can then conclude that the ROFR supports higher prices. Q.E.D.

I think the point many try to make is that the mere presence of ROFR doesn't prop up resale prices. That is most evident now. Most of the Marriott resorts being sold cheap right now have ROFR, it isn't keeping prices up at all.
 

BocaBum99

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Hi Boca Jim,

I understand your logic and reasoning, but I think you'll have a tough time finding Marriotts that meet your criteria. Neither Manor Club nor Horizons Branson are likely to rent for two times their maintenance fees. I have stayed at both resorts and used to own at Manor Club. They are great places, but both Williamsburg and Branson are extremely overbuilt with timeshares. Consequently, exchanges into these resorts are easy and rents are very low.

A couple other Marriotts with relatively low fees that are located an easy drive from major population centers are Fairway Villas in New Jersey and Legend's Edge in Panama City Beach, FL. However, neither of these locations are on the beach (even though they are in beach areas). Exchanges are easy and rents are low.

One that might make sense is Marriott's Canyon Villas in Phoenix. If you can get a platinum week for cheap, and IF you can reserve a prime March week, then you may get some pretty good rental income. However, the north Phoenix/Scottsdale area has a lot of competition when it comes to high quality timeshares. Both the Four Seasons and the Westin Kierland Villas are, in my opinion, nicer than the Marriott. Also, the true prime season is pretty short in this area. Nevertheless, this is one resort that it might make sense to own based on your criteria.

Steve

Steve


Steve,

I'm thinking that some of those Maui Marriott units in the Napili Tower might be good targets.

My biggest concern is the county of Maui and it's anti-timeshare position. Maintenance fees may increase substantially over time.

But, I remember how amazed I was that Joe was able to command such a premium for this rentals at the Maui Marriott. What I could never cost justify is the return on capital. His return was decent, but it wasn't possible to own many without going broke.

There is a price at which those Marriott's are a steal. What if you could get a 2br oceanview unit for less than $10,000 that was a lock off. That might be pretty interesting.

I am assuming people will want to go to Hawaii again in the future.
 

m61376

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I think the point many try to make is that the mere presence of ROFR doesn't prop up resale prices. That is most evident now. Most of the Marriott resorts being sold cheap right now have ROFR, it isn't keeping prices up at all.

At the present time, Marriott has seemingly and unofficially suspended ROFR...at least it seems that way. Since Marriott is buying back few deals, the "fire sales," which probably have always existed but are more prevalent in an economic downturn, are becoming obtainable.
 

PerryM

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I think the point many try to make is that the mere presence of ROFR doesn't prop up resale prices. That is most evident now. Most of the Marriott resorts being sold cheap right now have ROFR, it isn't keeping prices up at all.

Cops don't need to be on every street corner, radar guns in hand, to instill fear into the hearts of speeders - just random enforcement is all that is needed to impact drivers behavior.

The ROFR is there when the developer needs it and if the developer doesn't need it only folks like us can tell the difference-for a while. If folks know the traffic cops are busy doing other things they speed.

The important thing is that some developers do work with owners to prop up resales if it makes sense. Some developers don't work with owners but against them to kill resale prices. Marriott seems to want to work with their owners - it makes sense to them.


Attention wheeler-dealers:
When trying to play timeshare wheeler-dealer the idea is, of course, to buy low and sell high. That assumes that current prices won't go lower and that prices will go higher in the near future. Both seem to be very questionable for the next few years (2 - 4 years) - at least to me.

Timeshares have always been sold as a lifetime of usage that then is passed on to heirs - all the timeshares salesreps sell them that way. Flipping timeshares in this market seems to be great if you want to make a small fortune (the investment joke is "What's the easiest way to make a small fortune?.....Start with a large fortune and flip timeshares".

I'm sorry but flipping timeshares in this market is just a dumb idea.
 

Garnet

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......"very questionable for the next few years (2 - 4 years) - at least to me....."

...... "Flipping timeshares in this market seems to be great if you want to make a small fortune (the investment joke is "What's the easiest way to make a small fortune?.....Start with a large fortune and flip timeshares"

I'm sorry but flipping timeshares in this market is just a dumb idea....."

Good to see your posting again, Perry. Wow----I am hoping this doesn't last 2-4 years. I see as reasonable, another 1.5 years. Credit markets "marketably" improving in 9- 14 months. Debt yet again for the debtors...Only credit worthy debtors this time. I hope!!!
 

m61376

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Perry- Not that I disagree about whether it is a good investment to buy now for flipping purposes (although I tend to think it may be a good idea in a few isolated cases but am too conservative to follow through), but I sure hope your prognostication for the economy is wrong.

The pricing free-for-all is due, at least in part, to the credit crisis, and if it takes at least 2-4 years for it to ease, as you suggest, then the prices of timeshares will be the least of our worries. Looking back at the last real estate dive of the late 80's, it will likely take a few years though for prices to come back and timeshare prices may follow a similar time line.

The next dew years will surely be interesting. As the economy improves, will people once again want to splurge to enjoy life (effecting a timeshare market increase) or will the memory linger and they remain more conservative wrt vacation travel? I tend to think that our parents' generation would be/have been more conservative but our generation and our children's will again go out and spend. Of course, that's just my opinion....
 

PerryM

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Tipping point??

Looking at past cycles of up and down is helpful but the key question is “What’s different now then back then?”

We have an out of control federal government spending trillions of dollars like it was Monopoly money – the FED has spent 2 trillion dollars and they won’t even tell us where the money went. That’s about $7,000 of additional debt for each man, woman, and child in America. With interest and the inefficient way government collects taxes that will easily be $14,000 for each American to pay back. And for what?

Our government, both parties are guilty of this, has bankrupted us – wait until Social Security all of a sudden becomes a problem “out of the blue”. That monster has been kept in the closet for 60 years and it grows each day.

My forecast for the USA is so gloomy that I can’t even write out scenarios as to what will happen to us. I think the best analogy is the 3 car manufactures in Detroit – the more cars they make the worse their situation. The same here and I only see a depression as the outcome – an eye-popping depression to make the last one look like child’s splay.

So my advice to folks is to keep every penny you have and put it somewhere – I don’t even have a clue where that is – stocks, bonds, real estate, and gold will continue to free fall. It’s called deflation and we don’t know how to handle it.

Trying to flip timeshares makes sense if you are the broker both buying and selling them to you. And that’s what we have here – the advice to flip timeshares comes from a reseller – what a self serving piece of advice.
 
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dioxide45

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Cops don't need to be on every street corner, radar guns in hand, to instill fear into the hearts of speeders - just random enforcement is all that is needed to impact drivers behavior.

The ROFR is there when the developer needs it and if the developer doesn't need it only folks like us can tell the difference-for a while. If folks know the traffic cops are busy doing other things they speed.

The important thing is that some developers do work with owners to prop up resales if it makes sense. Some developers don't work with owners but against them to kill resale prices. Marriott seems to want to work with their owners - it makes sense to them.

I have picked up a response here since it relates to the ROFR debate.
 

m61376

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Trying to flip timeshares makes sense if you are the broker both buying and selling them to you. And that’s what we have here – the advice to flip timeshares comes from a reseller – what a self serving piece of advice.

Perry- Who knows- you may be right on the rest- I certainly hope not, but I am more of a cup half full type of person I guess- but in defense of Boca, I don't think that's fair. I think he was commenting on what he was thinking of doing personally. He has posted that he has not been involved in selling Marriotts and, unless I misunderstood, just thought it might be a good investment to make at this time. I don't think he was trying to promote his own business interests (at least that was my perception).

Personally, I am not confident enough in the economy to do so, although I do think it is a good time to buy for use and may be a unique opportunity. Maybe I will look back in 6 months and realize I was a fool and threw out $5000; I hope not. If things turn around, I will be smiling smugly. At any extent, many of us have made worse investment mistakes and I will be making a purchase that will, hopefully, be something my family enjoys for years to come. And, I wouldn't be surprised if Boca posts a year or two down the road with an "I told you so." Time will tell....
 

Zac495

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Hi Perry! Long time, so see.
I don't think Jim (Boca) would post to make money off of us - I think he thinks of us as his (loosely termed)friends. He sells Bluetree (something like that - I don't even know what that is - bet it's cheaper than Marriott, though). Anyway, I guess I'm the type that believes in people - NOT that I'd take his advice without really thinking it through, checking my finances, discussing it with my husband, etc.

When I go on ebay, I'm sorely tempted to buy something that I can USE that is so inexpensive. I wouldn't buy to flip because I don't have that kind of capital as a little school teacher - but I sure would like to be on the + side of a sale.
 

PerryM

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It's just a dumb idea...

My point is that the advice of this thread is to:

“My guess is that you pick them up for $.50 on the dollar or less. When Marriott starts exercising again, you will earn a superior return.”

Buying timeshares, especially when not even the developer is doing so, is incredibly irresponsible at this time in our history. Think about that for a second – Marriott doesn’t even want to flip timeshares and we are advised to do so?

Hold on to your money in these times and don’t go blowing it on things that are crashing like a lead balloon.

At some point the cycle will bottom out – how much damage will be inflicted upon your family is the key question here – do you really need another timeshare and the $1,000 per year MF to go with it? Really?

Timeshares are not sold as investments to flip – to find suggestions that this is perfectly ok to do so now is just dumb; and that’s me being polite.

P.S.
This entire scheme of flipping timeshares is predicated upon Marriott exercising the ROFR at 60% of current sales prices.

What happens if Marriott starts lowering the sales price to reflect real estate's lost value? What happens if Marriott decides that enough owners are dumping Marriotts and Marriott only has to offer 25% for the ROFR? That means more profit for Marriott.

Lots of assumptions here waiting to bite you in the ass....

P.P.S.
My response to the ROFR and how it can bite you.
 
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JudyS

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...
So my advice to folks is to keep every penny you have and put it somewhere – I don’t even have a clue where that is – stocks, bonds, real estate, and gold will continue to free fall. It’s called deflation and we don’t know how to handle it....
I'm concerned about deflation, too. In times of deflation, the best thing to do is keep your money in cash. This is why the interest rate on t-bills is just about zero now. (Or even a bit below zero.) However, the risk with keeping your funds in cash is that you tend to lose out on gains when the economy starts to recover.

....
I don't think Jim (Boca) would post to make money off of us - I think he thinks of us as his (loosely termed)friends. He sells Bluetree (something like that - I don't even know what that is - bet it's cheaper than Marriott, though). Anyway, I guess I'm the type that believes in people - NOT that I'd take his advice without really thinking it through, checking my finances, discussing it with my husband, etc....
Yes, Jim specializes in Bluegreen. Perry, I don't think Jim was looking to sell us Marriotts that he owns; rather he, wanted suggestions for Marriotts he could buy and rent out. This thread was about Platinum Marriotts, and last I heard, Jim didn't even own any of those, so he'd have none to sell us.

Jim, why not Summitwatch or Mountainside in Park City? Those are lock-offs with MFs around $1000, aren't they? The Platinum Plus weeks should rent for loads of $$$. But you own a bronze there, if I recall correctly, so I'm assuming you already thought of them and ruled them out.
 

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Steve,

I'm thinking that some of those Maui Marriott units in the Napili Tower might be good targets.

My biggest concern is the county of Maui and it's anti-timeshare position. Maintenance fees may increase substantially over time.

But, I remember how amazed I was that Joe was able to command such a premium for this rentals at the Maui Marriott. What I could never cost justify is the return on capital. His return was decent, but it wasn't possible to own many without going broke.

There is a price at which those Marriott's are a steal. What if you could get a 2br oceanview unit for less than $10,000 that was a lock off. That might be pretty interesting.

I am assuming people will want to go to Hawaii again in the future.

I think resorts in Hawaii are more of a risk than mainland resorts. The potential rewards are a lot higher as well, though, as the rents some people get are incredible.

Still, with the combination of rapidly rising maintenance fees and the fact that almost no one can drive to the resort, I personally wouldn't buy the Maui Marriott for investment purposes. If you want to use it, that would be different.

Steve
 

BocaBum99

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My point is that the advice of this thread is to:

“My guess is that you pick them up for $.50 on the dollar or less. When Marriott starts exercising again, you will earn a superior return.”

Buying timeshares, especially when not even the developer is doing so, is incredibly irresponsible at this time in our history. Think about that for a second – Marriott doesn’t even want to flip timeshares and we are advised to do so?

Hold on to your money in these times and don’t go blowing it on things that are crashing like a lead balloon.

At some point the cycle will bottom out – how much damage will be inflicted upon your family is the key question here – do you really need another timeshare and the $1,000 per year MF to go with it? Really?

Timeshares are not sold as investments to flip – to find suggestions that this is perfectly ok to do so now is just dumb; and that’s me being polite.

P.S.
This entire scheme of flipping timeshares is predicated upon Marriott exercising the ROFR at 60% of current sales prices.

What happens if Marriott starts lowering the sales price to reflect real estate's lost value? What happens if Marriott decides that enough owners are dumping Marriotts and Marriott only has to offer 25% for the ROFR? That means more profit for Marriott.

Lots of assumptions here waiting to bite you in the ass....

P.P.S.
My response to the ROFR and how it can bite you.

My role in timesharing is merely a science project that turned into a business that allowed me to spend full time on a hobby. In the case of Marriott's, I have no financial interest as others have pointed out. You can claim that I have an ulterior motive, but I think that most on this board believe my posts at face value and use the information to make their own decisions as they do yours.

My advice is much more sound than advice you've provided in the past. Let's review some of them.

1) buy pre-construction timeshares from developers to profit. While it's true that it is possible to make money on a timeshare from a developer, the expected return on invested capital is very low and not worth it. Investing in CDs has a better return with far lower risk. This IS one of your past recommendations and you cited your own purchases as proof that it was a good idea. Very Bad idea.

2) Ignore the capital for purchasing a timeshare since it is just a luxury purchase. By doing that, buying a timeshare for $1 is no different than buying it for $100,000. That makes no sense. Very bad idea.

3) Condo Hotels are the new business model for vacationing. Daytona Beach and Maui I think were the hot prospects. There is no housing bubble. These are great investments at this time. Only problem is that it was the height of the housing bubble which you denied by using zillow as your proof. Very bad recommendation.

4) Planet Hollywood as the number 1 timeshare in the world and buying a penthouse suite as a good investment. I think it was $10,000 per week or something like that you expected to get. This was an extraordinary bad idea. Even the sales guys in Las Vegas were posting congratulations to the sales guy who sold it to you. They couldn't believe you fell for it.

5) At the same time you were rightly predicting that WorldMark credits would drop in price, you kept advising that it was the best thing to buy and that you would add to your portfolio. You also were proud of TravelShare and recommended that WorldMark expand maintenance fees to become Marriott. WorldMark and Marriott are so vastly different that this is an extraordinarily weak idea.

6) You were promoting the wisdom of buying a small acount and renting credits when you never did it. In fact, what you did instead was buy a Trendwest Fractional with a high capital cost and an annual cost of ownership that is higher than you can rent credits. Very bad idea. Weren't you claiming that fractionals were the next big thing because it could be sold like real estate?

7) Buying an RCI Points account and depositing South African weeks into points for deposit for a total cost HIGHER than buying the airline tickets directly from the airlines. Why would anyone want to go through all that trouble for it to cost more? Very bad idea.

8) Jumping into Redweek with both feet before thinking about their business model. Then, having to spend 2 months slamming them for not meeting your expectations. You end up getting two halves of a unit at the Marriott Maui for President's week. Did Marriott ever remarry those units for you when you arrived even though they had different check in dates? I just took a Marriott Summit watch bronze week studio and used it to book week 52 at the Marriott Maui and it was already married. Recommending Redweek as the next revolution in exchange. Very bad idea.

9) Investing 99% of one's personal net worth into the Dow Jones industrial stock index because it has had a history around 14% annual returns. When you posted that I said you need to be careful because there can be decades where the Dow gains 0%. We entered into such a period within one year of your declaration. Extraordinarily bad idea.

10) Now you are saying that virtually all timeshares will be sold on eBay for $1. If that happens, the timeshare industry is dead and they won't even be selling at $1. That is a possible scenario. I'l grant you that. However, I believe that it is about as likely to happen as another great depression. Possible, but not probable. If the disaster scenario doesn't happen, odds are the the timeshare industry will resume in a couple years in a growth mode again after probably a 50% correction in annual sales.

I have already outlined my theory extensively for when and why it makes sense to purchase a Marriott Platinum week now. And, that since Marriott is NOT exercising ROFR that it is the best time ever to pick one up, especially if you will use it every year. I expressed an upside that is POSSIBLE and PROBABLE if you believe the market and economy will return. I also claim that if the disaster scenario occurs in the market, that all bets are off.

And, if you read the thread, you will see that there are a ton of posters on this message board who also believe that it is a good time to buy. Are the resellers, too? Or, could it be that someone with deep experience in the industry might just have some good helpful insights.

The idea of flipping is definitely a risky proposition. I'll definitely agree with that. But, if you have a destination that you like, that you can indeed get for really cheap and it is likely to be a good trader and/or renter in the future, then it is indeed a good time to purchase a Platinum Marriott week.

I've only pointed out the things you were wrong on. You were right on a number of other things.

They are:

1) Implosion of the ponzi scheme that is destination clubs.
2) dramatic decrease in the resale value of WorldMark credits
3) The bursting of the timeshare bubble
4) The idea of a timeshare portfolio
5) VRBO as a good rental option for vacationers
6) WorldMark as a great ownership and trader

As I review the above things you were right on vs. wrong, I can only conclude that what you do is run into a new concept you have never seen before, declare it as the next best thing and make a wild extrapolation on what things will be in the future that is wrong more times than not.

So, if we are going to make a determination of who is making responsible vs. irresponsible recommendations, I'd take my track record is far superior to yours.

Your up. I hope you have more facts that "you are a self interested reseller." People aren't buying it.
 
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mjs

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4) Planet Hollywood as the number 1 timeshare in the world and buying a penthouse suite as a good investment. I think it was $10,000 per week or something like that you expected to get. This was an extraordinary bad idea. Even the sales guys in Las Vegas were posting congratulations to the sales guy who sold it to you. They couldn't believe you fell for it.

I think you forgot a zero. I believe Perry said he was going to pay $100,000 for the week.
 

m61376

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4) Planet Hollywood as the number 1 timeshare in the world and buying a penthouse suite as a good investment. I think it was $10,000 per week or something like that you expected to get. This was an extraordinary bad idea. Even the sales guys in Las Vegas were posting congratulations to the sales guy who sold it to you. They couldn't believe you fell for it.

I think you forgot a zero. I believe Perry said he was going to pay $100,000 for the week.

Yes- but I think that he was also counting on renting it for $10,000 per week, if I am not mistaken. Of course, he made the purchase when the economy was very different.

If only we all had the benefit of hindsight :wall: . But, just to put things in perspective, as those of us who felt smug about buying resale and getting good prices over the past few years look at the current sales and :shrug: , remember the wonderful vacations we've taken in the interim :) . I know I'm sounding a bit like a timeshare salesperson but, at least for us, that's true.
 
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