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it ain't over

Aurelius

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It takes significant time of board members to do this process. It cannot be delegated to the current resort manager. If the resort manager's performance is not even a problem, then why devote such a scarce resource which inevitably takes the board's eye off the real problem. Some might complain that Grand Pacific was profiting too much from the rental program. Even if it that charge is true, why is that the problem to focus on? Penny wise vs pound foolish comes to mind.
I can appreciate the time commitment. I serve on an association BOD as President and recently conducted a management RFP where we made a change. I get it.

A trick I use is that I keep a template for each major service and I use it each time that contract comes up for renewal.
 

Aurelius

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It occurs to me that I do not know if my vacant position has been filled yet. If the current board were to follow precedent, they would pick the candidate who placed next; in other words, they would pick Patricia Harrington. I will be surprised if they do that. I have reason to believe their cover story / explanation for their annual meeting maneuver was to oust Trish.
Wouldn’t this have to happen at a duly noticed meeting, with a motion made and a vote taken by the BOD?
 

ecwinch

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Wouldn’t this have to happen at a duly noticed meeting, with a motion made and a vote taken by the BOD?
Not under the by-laws. Under the by-laws, when a BoD member resigns, the BoD selects a replacement director to fill the remainder of the resigning BoD members term.
 

ecwinch

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It occurs to me that I do not know if my vacant position has been filled yet. If the current board were to follow precedent, they would pick the candidate who placed next; in other words, they would pick Patricia Harrington. I will be surprised if they do that. I have reason to believe their cover story / explanation for their annual meeting maneuver was to oust Trish.
I would be equally surprised. And while I agree with your 2nd point, I would add - "you know what they say about payback".
 
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Pathways

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aftermarket resale value for KBV timeshares is negligible or negative
This basic fact is why I have remained somewhat ambivalent to the whole management argument. While I believe an independent BOD can be positive, unless someone goes beyond root cause and espouses a 'root fix' it is just treading water. A lot of rentals is just a band-aid on an open wound.

I believe to remain viable, this resort needs someone with deep pockets and a plan that far exceeds what is capable from current owners. Wyndham has A LOT to lose here. They can choose to essentially let this resort 'go' and liquidate, (which would probably be the death spiral) or they can come with a grand 'plan' and infuse the cash to turn this around. MF's are already too high, so what could a BOD spend money on that wouldn't just make things worse?

I don't know why Wyndham has taken such an interest in this resort, but I don't believe the management fees alone are it. What this resort really has going for it is the new construction limits on all of Kauai. Does Wyndham have a grand plan? Time will tell....
 

Aurelius

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Not under the by-laws. Under the by-laws, when a BoD member resigns, the BoD selects a replacement director to fill the remainder of the resigning BoD members term.
Right I understand that they pick but that needs to be done at a meeting by motion and vote of the BOD?
 

ecwinch

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Right I understand that they pick but that needs to be done at a meeting by motion and vote of the BOD?
Sorry - given the context I thought you meant a meeting of members. Normally - yes. But if all the BoD members agree on an action, they can take that action without a meeting by unanimous written consent under section 3.06 of the by-laws.
 

TUGBrian

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at least in our CCRs...the position has to be offered to whoever ran in the most recent election that got the most votes and didnt win a seat.
 

jacknsara

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This basic fact is why I have remained somewhat ambivalent to the whole management argument. While I believe an independent BOD can be positive, unless someone goes beyond root cause and espouses a 'root fix' it is just treading water. A lot of rentals is just a band-aid on an open wound.

I believe to remain viable, this resort needs someone with deep pockets and a plan that far exceeds what is capable from current owners. Wyndham has A LOT to lose here. They can choose to essentially let this resort 'go' and liquidate, (which would probably be the death spiral) or they can come with a grand 'plan' and infuse the cash to turn this around. MF's are already too high, so what could a BOD spend money on that wouldn't just make things worse?

I don't know why Wyndham has taken such an interest in this resort, but I don't believe the management fees alone are it. What this resort really has going for it is the new construction limits on all of Kauai. Does Wyndham have a grand plan? Time will tell....
“unless someone goes beyond root cause and espouses a 'root fix' it is just treading water.” Full agreement. Once the May minutes are posted on https://kauaibeachvillasresort.com/ refer to post #10 https://www.tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/it-aint-over.291235/#post-2292094

“ A lot of rentals is just a band-aid on an open wound.” Not quite how I would word it, but no argument from me.

“I believe to remain viable, this resort needs someone with deep pockets and a plan that far exceeds what is capable from current owners.” I’m curious about the facts, assumptions and your logic. I disagree. I have a conversationally unfair advantage of inside information. So, I’d rather understand the basis of your position before challenging it.

“Wyndham has A LOT to lose here.” Other than opportunity losses of not pursuing their current approach, I don’t agree. Would I be wrong to detect an implicit assumption that KBV is currently in some sort of dire condition? It is actually quite healthy currently per several metrics.

“I don't know why Wyndham has taken such an interest in this resort, but I don't believe the management fees alone are it.” With proper management and some luck that the economy does not tank in the next hand full of years, the property is worth far more than the timeshare aftermarket might lead one to believe. Quoting from bottom of page 9 / top of page 10 of https://www.tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?attachments/goodstein_kbv_bod_2018-pdf.6144/ (keep in mind this was written March 2018)

While KBV owners who sell their timeshares net negligible to negative dollars, sales of the non-timeshare condos still net real money. As of 3/20/18, there are two active listings. Wholly owned two bed two bath E11 is listed for sale at $309K and one bed one bath D19 is listed for $269K. Per Zillow, these asking prices are in line with but a bit higher than recent sales.​
 

jacknsara

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This whole situation is just terrible for owners. Between the posts here and the sky is falling drama on the Yahoo group, more and more owners see Wyndham winning the election as some catastrophic event and are considering “walking away” and defaulting on their maintenance fees.

More defaulting owners means higher maintenance fees for owners that stay. Which ultimately will result in more owners choosing to walk away. Rinse, repeat.

Of course if anyone tries to sell or give away their timeshare, google will land buyers here and if the potential buyer is smart they will run for the hills.

Wyndham’s intentions aside, putting contracts out to bid is always a good thing. What if there is a better alternative to GP out there? What if the competition forces GP to make a more competitive pricing offer? If Wyndham bids on the management contract and isn’t competitive, the fiscal duty of the directors to the association should force them to select the best bid. They also are supposed to disclose any potential conflict and abstain from voting on those conflicts. I don’t think anyone can assume that changing management companies is a done deal.
Regarding: “Of course if anyone tries to sell or give away their timeshare, google will land buyers here and if the potential buyer is smart they will run for the hills.”
If there is sufficient interest, the assumption I perceive this is based on might be a worthy separate thread perhaps in the lounge.
Years ago here in TUG I speculated that as smart phones became common, more and more developer sales would not close or get rescinded as prospective buyers pulled out their phones during or shortly after the sales process and found TUG. I don’t perceive that the rate of finding TUG has grown as smart phones have become widely owned. I spent a bit of time during the last year trying to figure out why and what Tuggers might be able to do to improve the rate. Given my situation, I chose to not pursue it. My situation has changed.
Rather than engage that topic in detail in this sub forum, are there at least a handful of folks here who are interested in pursuing that in a separate thread in perhaps a more appropriate forum? I'd be content to open it up in a day or two if at least 3 Tuggers agree to participate; I'd like to take the time to compose a well thought out initial post.
If three Tuggers say yes, I ask that no one else respond to this particular post in this thread.
 

ValChatelle44

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just wanted to see who was awake. Thanks for letting me know.
 

Pathways

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“I believe to remain viable, this resort needs someone with deep pockets and a plan that far exceeds what is capable from current owners.” I’m curious about the facts, assumptions and your logic. I disagree. I have a conversationally unfair advantage of inside information. So, I’d rather understand the basis of your position before challenging it.
I won't copy all the comments/responses, but want to say first and foremost, you have done the deep dive and and are privy to the back room discussions. As I've said before, I find your approach to be above board, and trust your take on all KBV matters in which I've seen you comment.

Before I purchase a TS interest, I have learned to looked at financials, the current state of the property, resale trends etc. I think a lot of tuggers do the same. However, that is not how 95%+ of TS's are 'sold'.

Over the years I have learned to visit a property with the DW, and walk through and ask her whether she would like to stay here each year. It's that 'WOW' factor that is foreign to me. On our first visit to Kauai, we visited 10+ TS properties. I won't repeat her comments about KBV, but it wasn't complimentary. Back in those days, I didn't listen too much as I thought my own 'deep dive' was paramount. I thought the OF location of KBV and proximity to the airport was so compelling it was a can't fail. I have since learned to listen to her very superficial opinion, because that is probably the same opinion a large % of first time visitors have. And these visitors are the future sales/resales of the resort.

It is from this outlook that I formulate the idea that 'deep pockets' are needed. I think vast improvements have been made, are either in progress or 'on the radar', all within a reasonable budget. And again, maybe a 'grand plan' is already in the works that I'm not aware of.

It is actually quite healthy currently per several metrics
I can't disagree here. However the metric most bothersome to me is the owner occupancy %. I read in the Marriott forum the banter about 'which resort is best' on Kauai. Even when it's island views only, the chatter is how much they enjoy the resort. This attitude is what keeps the resales humming. KBV has the location, what else is needed?
 
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ecwinch

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However the metric most bothersome to me is the owner occupancy %. I read in the Marriott forum the banter about 'which resort is best' on Kauai. Even when it's island views only, the chatter is how much they enjoy the resort. This attitude is what keeps the resales humming. KBV has the location, what else is needed?
The unfortunate reality is KBV has significant constraints - as the IOA lacks both the funding and the authority to significantly change anything other than interior furnishings of the resort. And as we saw with the hotel pool agreement - our interests are not entirely aligned with those of the condo owners.

In situations like this I am a big fan of benchmarking - and would ask that same question slightly differently. So what other similarly situated resorts can we identify that have achieved the result we desire?
 

DeniseM

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Pathways - If your wife didn't like the resort, did you buy there anyway?
 

Pathways

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As my wife will tell you, I never listen to her. But between KBV and Bali Hai, guess which was the better long term purchase?
 

DeniseM

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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder: I own 3 ocean front weeks at KBV and we use it ourselves every year. Bali Hai looks beautiful, but it's in-land, and that's a deal killer for me. I would never buy there or stay there.
 

ecwinch

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I think Denise's point is a key one when the BoD decides on a course of action. I love my oceanfront weeks at KBV also, but like Pathway's wife - would have little no interest in KBV if I was not able to secure an ocean front unit. Which creates a system where oceanfront owners might be more vested in their ownership, than lagoon/garden view owners. And if the intent is to add-value to being a KBV owner, one way to accomplish that is to make "owner" view upgrades more of a reality.

So perhaps any ocean front units that are currently in arrears should be foreclosed on and held by the HOA. Used in a "pool arrangement" that allows owners to be upgraded to those units on a space-available or lottery or once every X years basis. Adding more value to being an owner at KBV regardless of what view you have.

Because as Pathway pointed out - the owner usage statistics at KBV appear to be very low (i.e. less than 20%), and annual dues dont suggest an owner who is exchanging all the time is getting value for their money. Though RCI pts and Club Wyndham pts owners will fare better, and their usage of KBV might be obscured by how the owner statistics are generated.

So it might be more accurate to say "Beauty is in the view of the beholder" as it pertains to KBV. :ponder:
 
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DeniseM

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So perhaps any ocean front units that are currently in arrears should be foreclosed on and held by the HOA. Used in a "pool arrangement" that allows owners to be upgraded to those units on a space-available or lottery or once every X years basis. Adding more value to being an owner at KBV.
This would be nice for owners, but it's a money loser. Financially, it would be better to sell those units to new owners.

It's really hard to say if this would motivate people not to default on their non-ocean front ownership. I don't think it would make a difference with the majority of defaulters, because usually the owner is having financial problems, and added value doesn't change that.
 

ecwinch

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That might be true. But as I often tell my kids ..... perfect is the enemy of the good (Voltaire).

Because an idea does not need to be perfect, or be a silver bullet that entirely solves the problem. But if the objective is to add value to being an owner at KBV, I think that is naturally an incremental process. That there is not one single thing that will solve the problem - that the solution is likely a number of things over the long-term.

Because every indicator I am seeing is the current course of action is to make a big dollar investment in upgrading the resort in the hope that a bright and shiny resort will address Jack's core problem of resale value. History tells me that is not very promising in the long term.
 

Pathways

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little no interest in KBV if I was not able to secure an ocean front unit
Well stated. Separate F,G and H and I'll buy 6-10 weeks. As long as A-E are in the mix, well... I can't typically recover mf with a rental unless OF. And the layout of the buildings at KBV sacrifices the views of the most for the few.

I don't disagree with Denise at all in her assessment of KBV and BH. I'm of that same age, I just want to relax and watch the ocean. But we are a dying generation. The younger crowd wants activities and action, a lobby that says 'luxury'.

Another example - I love to play tennis, and I will use the whirlpool if my unit has one. If I was on a BOD, I would vote to eliminate both in a heartbeat. The usage (value) compared to expense for both is terrible.

These are the challenges not just at KBV, but at many resorts. How do you update and upgrade the overall physical plant and grounds to attract new owners using only MF's? That's why again, I support Jack so strongly even if I might disagree with some minor point. Being on a BOD with a group of old guard on one side and knowing you need to attract new owners with different values on the other is an absolutely THANKLESS job.
 

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I also found it troubling that a “double-vote” was allowed. But when I take a step back, I am not sure how it would have ended differently.
I keep parsing the #'s and I'm not so sure.

Wyndham's strategy depended on dis-enfranchising the KBV owners who voted directly, or with a directed proxy, and weren't present at the meeting to participate in the second vote. Based on Dani Ramos's vote count in the second round, Wyndham must have controlled votes on about 1300 units - a total of 3900 for election of 3 new board members.

Would they have known how many KBV owners had cast (or were casting) votes before the meeting started? Most likely not. If they divided their votes evenly between their 3 candidates, there was a possibility of losing one or more seats, depending on how many KBV owners voted and who independent owners supported. And of course KBV owners who voted from a distance, based on information in the ballot, were led down the garden path.

A total of 1790 votes were cast in the first round for non-Wyndham candidates. It seems likely that some owners voted for Larry Warner, an incumbent, first time around - he sent several campaign emails. 496 votes in the second round for the not-Wyndham person. Suggests a loss of at least 100 voters.

Seems a lot like insider trading.
 

ecwinch

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Wyndham's strategy depended on dis-enfranchising the KBV owners who voted directly, or with a directed proxy, and weren't present at the meeting to participate in the second vote.
Maggie - I dont want to sound like a broken record, but you might have more information about this issue than I do. I only know what has been reported here - that there was a vote for three positions. That vote failed to seat a candidate that would have met the residency requirements of the by-laws. It was then decided - by whom and under what authority (?) - that the top two vote-getters would be seated and a special election be held to fill the residency requirement BoD position.

And that in the general election, the vote totals for the SaveKBV.org endorsed candidates were:

Trish Harrington, 965.75
Brian Reichel, 633.45

Now since the general election was for three BoD positions, cumulative voting rules in our by-laws meant that each every full interval owner could cast 1 vote per open BoD position - or 3 votes.

Given the assumption that SaveKBV.org would have only voted for the candidates they endorsed, that suggests no more than 533 intervals (out of 5000+) fully supported the SaveKBV.org candidates - under the best conditions.

Vs how many intervals on the Wyndham side (~20% of the resort)?
 
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