• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 31 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 31st Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $23,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $23 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    Tens of thousands of subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

Isn't the current environment making Marriott more likely to offer mass enrollment to Vistana and Marriott owners?

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
Marriott and Vistana sales people please do not comment, I know, everything has to go through your department and the world does not revolve otherwise.

A mass MVC enrollment offered to both resale and retail owners can make Marriott Vacation Worldwide a lot of fast cash without an effort and without anyone travelling to the resorts to buy anything. It can be done online paying similar rates to the ones they charged historically. At a time when the stock is in free fall I assume the Marriott executives, if this was part of the plan at all, or even one of the options, cannot wait long enough for the 2 year mandatory freeze after the ILG acquisition (that ends this summer I think?)

A common objection to mass enrollment was that this was would hurt sales. I do not agree with that premise since it was going to be short lived and minor vs the profit they would make with the mass enrollment but given what is going on this might be even less important now
 

ocdb8r

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
1,651
Reaction score
891
In short - no. I do not believe the "current environment" motivates MVC to do much of anything. Absolutely nothing they do in the current environment is going to meaningfully affect spending. As the current crisis subsides, we will have to wait and see how the repercussions affect the industry and the MVC executives will watch an act accordingly.

If I were in senior management, I would have little motivation to try to modify whatever my current plans are for the new cross-product. Performance pressure will be lower than ever as everyone has already priced in the worst. Expectations will never be lower. As such, why do something contrary to what they believed 3 months ago is the best long term profit strategy (I won't bother to even try to get into the debate about whether allowing mass enrollment would actually hurt future sales or not - the MVC execs have formed their view on this already and our internal debate isn't going to change it)?

Now, if in 18 months MVC is lagging behind the industry in recovery, they may change their strategy and prefer some quick cash....but I don't think anything in the current environment makes that more likely anytime soon.
 

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
In short - no. I do not believe the "current environment" motivates MVC to do much of anything. Absolutely nothing they do in the current environment is going to meaningfully affect spending. As the current crisis subsides, we will have to wait and see how the repercussions affect the industry and the MVC executives will watch an act accordingly.

If I were in senior management, I would have little motivation to try to modify whatever my current plans are for the new cross-product. Performance pressure will be lower than ever as everyone has already priced in the worst. Expectations will never be lower. As such, why do something contrary to what they believed 3 months ago is the best long term profit strategy (I won't bother to even try to get into the debate about whether allowing mass enrollment would actually hurt future sales or not - the MVC execs have formed their view on this already and our internal debate isn't going to change it)?

Now, if in 18 months MVC is lagging behind the industry in recovery, they may change their strategy and prefer some quick cash....but I don't think anything in the current environment makes that more likely anytime soon.
I respectfully disagree. If they offer enrollment for a $1000-$2000, to hundreds of thousand of Vistana and Marriott owners, they would make a lot of money especially if this a limited time offer.
 

ocdb8r

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
1,651
Reaction score
891
I respectfully disagree. If they offer enrollment for a $1000-$2000, to hundreds of thousand of Vistana and Marriott owners, they would make a lot of money especially if this a limited time offer.
I'm not sure I understand what you disagree with. At what point in my post did I say they wouldn't make money if they offered such an enrollment?
 

canesfan

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2012
Messages
576
Reaction score
130
Location
Chicago Suburbs & Tucson
Resorts Owned
WKORVN x2
WSJ-BV
WLR
They have a timetable and when they have all the details set, it will rollout. Just because this has happened they can’t start enrollment if they don’t have the system in place yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

JIMinNC

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
4,938
Reaction score
4,535
Location
Marvin, NC (Charlotte) & Hilton Head Island, SC
Resorts Owned
Marriott:
Maui Ocean Club
Waiohai Beach Club
Barony Beach Club
Abound ClubPoints
HGVC:
HGVC at Sea World
I actually think the current global pandemic situation has the potential to significantly delay their plans for a cross-brand product. Tour flow and sales could easily drop off a cliff over the next several months. If that happens, I can't imagine that they won't be forced to lay-off staff, meaning development projects like the new product form may need to be temporarily stopped to preserve capital and cash. As other consumers lose their jobs, loan defaults may rise as well, impacting Marriott Vacations' ability to monetize their loan portfolios that they typically sell to investors. While timeshare typically suffers less in recessionary periods than other discretionary travel, this pandemic has the potential to forever alter the travel landscape.

A lot of people seem to be thinking this is going to be over in a few weeks or a month. But the way I interpret what I've been reading/hearing, if the CDC/NIH is successful in "flattening the curve" and preventing our hospitals from being over-run like what is now sadly happening in Italy, then that will be a great success, but it will significantly lengthen the amount of time it takes for the virus to subside, thus stretching out the economic impact. If they are unsuccessful, and we become Italy, then that is the worst scenario. Many thousands could die (maybe much worse) and the economic damage would be incomprehensible in a country of our size. I suspect, all travel-related companies are going to suffer greatly either way over the next two-three quarters at least. The weaker ones will probably cease to exist. The travel landscape may be forever changed. I think Marriott Vacations Worldwide will survive due to their more predictable revenue flow, but I think they will not emerge unscathed. There is a possibility that survival will become their top priority, not product development.
 

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
I am not joining the "worst case scenario" voices. If you look at the data, we are supposed to believe that the death rate from Coronavirus is 7% in Italy and close to 0% in Germany, Austria, Switzerland. Something does not make sense. Of all places on the planet, Iran is second in terms of death rates and third in terms of number of people who are sick. When I see that people 80+ probably with many other conditions, possibly terminally ill, are counted as having died from the virus... Anyways, I trust more the Swiss and the Germans when it comes to data collection.



But my point is that even in the worst case scenario they would want to offer the enrollment because they would generate a lot of cash by doing so, it will all flow to the bottom line. The enrollment would be online and all the members notified by email so they do not need any sales presentations in person. This is exactly my point, they can do it all remotely. For example if 100,000 people join and pay 2000 dollars enrollment fee, this is 200,000,000 dollars they can make relatively fast. I am not sure VAC is cash stretched right now (they just collected the MF!) and I am sure they are still generating healthy profits. But for sure they will welcome the additional revenue and they can use it to buy back the stock at a lower valuation, a great way for the management to make sure the 2020 bonuses would be earned!
 
Last edited:

JIMinNC

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
4,938
Reaction score
4,535
Location
Marvin, NC (Charlotte) & Hilton Head Island, SC
Resorts Owned
Marriott:
Maui Ocean Club
Waiohai Beach Club
Barony Beach Club
Abound ClubPoints
HGVC:
HGVC at Sea World
I am not joining the "worst case scenario" voices.

I wasn’t trying to imply that I think the worst case scenario will play out, I certainly hope it doesn't. I just think that even the less dire scenarios are going to likely have significant short and intermediate term impacts on all travel companies that may significantly alter the initiatives they choose to, or can, focus resources on.
 

ocdb8r

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
1,651
Reaction score
891
I'm sorry, but this whole post just reeks of misinformation.

I am not joining the "worst case scenario" voices. If you look at the data, we are supposed to believe that the death rate from Coronavirus is 7% in Italy and close to 0% in Germany, Austria, Switzerland. Something does not make sense. Of all places on the planet, Iran is second in terms of death rates and third in terms of number of people who are sick. When I see that people 80+ probably with many other conditions, possibly terminally ill, are counted as having died from the virus... Anyways, I trust more the Swiss and the Germans when it comes to data collection.

The answer is quite simple (and the German doctors and scientists have acknowledged it), Germany is 8-10 days behind Italy on the infection curve. As it progresses, so too will the death rates. Just as in Italy, they will peak and then slowly come back down. Globally we still have no certainty where the death rate will pan out, but it will clearly be a multiple of seasonal flu. That multiplied by COVID-19 being more infectious, multiplied by it being "novel" (a.k.a. the general population has no antibodies as they do with seasonal flu) means we're talking about a serious pandemic.

I am not sure VAC is cash stretched right now (they just collected the MF!)

VAC doesn't keep the maintenance fees, they go to the resorts. VAC collects their management fees from the resorts throughout the year. Bottom line, collection of maintenance fees has no impact on VAC's balance sheet.

But for sure they will welcome the additional revenue and they can use it to buy back the stock at a lower valuation, a great way for the management to make sure the 2020 bonuses would be earned!

VAC shares have lost $1.6bn in value in the last month. $220mn is a drop in the bucket (and that assumes they'd bother to use it for share repurchases). I see ZERO benefit to management for a short-term, shortsighted "win" when they're drowning in losses. Much better to lick your wounds and make sensible long-term plans (especially when the whole market is suffering and you can likely survive these wounds by not being singled out as the cause).

I don't see anything here well-reasoned or compelling so I still think any rushed mass enrollment offer is unlikely.
 

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
@ocdb8r thank you for your comments

1) I do not think you understand how the market moves. You do not need anyone to buy 1.6 billion dollars worth of VAC stock for the market value to go back up to where it was. All you need is a significant marginal buyer that makes the balance tilt the other way. 200 million dollars is a lot of money and they do not even have to spend it all to buy back the stock. Buying back the stock also means they are cancelling shares so the earnings appear higher per share even if they do not make more money.

I encourage you to read the corporate investors day PPT presentation. VAC has 4 sources of revenue: management fees, exchange fees (Interval), sales of points and sales of vacations. The first one does not change whether people go or not to the resorts. The exchange business did not go down in 2008 and I would be surprised if it did today. More members may actually purchase Eplus and bring them additional revenue (marginally). I am sure the sales people are partly on commission and the earnings loss there may not be as much as you think. The vacation sales must be down big time, at least temporarily. But even those should not be as affected as Marriott International for example that relies much more on corporate travel. Also, VAC is more local in many ways, another reason they will not be as affected as others. If you look in Interval you will see that the number of getaways is up but you do not see a flood of weeks available.

Can you provide the source when you said that the company is "drowning in losses"

2) i do not know if they have receive at once the maintenance fees we paid already or if the resorts pay them monthly. Where do you have that information from? But even if VAC is paid monthly the management fee, it does not change anything, they are getting the money regardless of what happens because the money is in the bank already and the contract is a % of the MF, it has nothing to do with other factors

3) where do you get your statistics from? What happened with the first 100 who had the virus in the first 2 weeks in Italy, Germany, Switzerland, South Korea. By the way, in South Korea has had 8,000 cases so far and it started earlier than in Italy as far as I know. Yes, they have better detection but that explains why it did not spread more but it does not explain the low mortality rate since there is no cure for this at this moment.
 
Last edited:

Ken555

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
14,885
Reaction score
5,996
Location
Los Angeles
Resorts Owned
Westin Kierland
Sheraton Desert Oasis
This thread proves Danny has too much time on his hands. :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

ocdb8r

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
1,651
Reaction score
891
Again, I don't think the information in this post accurately portrays the situation.

1) I do not think you understand how the market moves. You do not need anyone to buy 1.6 billion dollars worth of VAC stock for the market value to go back up to where it was. All you need a marginal buyer that makes the balance to tilt the other way. 200 million dollars is a lot of money and they do not even have to spend it all to buy back the stock.

I don't think you understand how a share buyback works. It's not an "in market" transaction. The Company repurchases it's own shares at a set price either based on a public offer or in a private transaction with an institutional shareholder. In either case, at current prices, what $220mn could buyback is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of share value wiped off VAC in the last month. At current prices, they could buyback a maximum of 6.01% of outstanding shares. That purchase would increase per share book value by the same percentage. VAC is currently trading at 1.24 times book value, so assuming the market performed perfectly (and assuming no other market forces at play...forces like the imminent economic downturn), at best you'd get a 7.45% bump in share price. That's compared to the 30% drop in share price in the past 30 days at a cost of not booking ANY of the cash as revenue and whatever long-term effects management might believe (correctly or not) they sacrifice by quick mass enrollment. There's several other ways you could shape the model, but none of them gets you anything close to a recovery, all in an environment where every other player is also suffering, the US gov't is promising "assistance" to your industry and interest rates are racing to zero. Again, I see no reason to sacrifice whatever business model on the new product they have or are developing for these pennies in the current environment.

Can you provide the source when you said that the company is "drowning in losses"

Apologies if I was unclear - given your implication they would use this money for a share buyback (with some unexplained link to this achieving their bonuses), reference was intended to refer to share price losses, not VAC results.

2) i do not know if they have receive at once the maintenance fees we paid already or if the resorts pay them monthly. Where do you have that information from? But even if VAC is paid monthly the management fee, it does not change anything, they are getting the money regardless of what happens because the money is in the bank already and the contract is a % of the MF, it has nothing to do with other factors

The maintenance fee money is not in VAC accounts because it's not their money. They collect it on behalf of the owners associations. What is theirs is the monthly fees paid to them on their management fee contracts. This is all outlined in their annual report.

3) where do you get your statistics from? What happened with the first 100 who had the virus in the first 2 weeks in Italy, Germany, Switzerland, South Korea. By the way, in South Korea has had 8,000 cases so far and it started earlier than in Italy as far as I know. Yes, they have better detection but that explains why it did not spread more but it does not explain the low mortality rate since there is no cure for this at this moment.

Even in S. Korea, where their strategy of trace, test and treat (which starts with MASS testing from day 1) has been attributed to keeping the mortality rate extremely low, the rate is 0.7% (compared to current global rate of 3.4% calculated by the WHO). Seasonal flu has a mortality rate of 0.1% - that means in the current best case scenario, COVID-19 has seven times the mortality of the seasonal flu. The effect of that is exponential given COVID-19 has a higher transmission rate than the seasonal flu and is more infectious (because it is novel, we have not developed any antibodies towards it). Finally, combine all of that with the likelihood the resulting numbers completely overwhelm the health system (meaning at some point in the infection curve, those requiring critical care can't get it because their aren't enough beds, nurses and equipment) and you have the potential for a real disaster. This is no joke - if we cannot flatten that infection curve, mortality rates will exceed the current averages and not look anything like that in S. Korea (which is already BAD compared to seasonal flu). And here's another statistic - S. Korea has 12 hospital beds per 1000 population; the US has 2.8 beds per 1000.

Bottom line, we should thank our lucky stars if this does "not go away quickly" because it likely means we've flattened the infection curve so it's spread out longer but with a much lower peak. I do not want to be speaking with my family and friends in America about how hospitals have had to stop treating many of the elderly altogether because the limited resources must be directed to those most likely to survive (the same conversations I am currently having with Italian friends and family).

Useful resources with statistics here, here and here.
 
Last edited:

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
Sorry to tell you, they have bought back the shares in the open market throughout the year and they pump up the purchases when they think the shares have a very good value. Do you own and follow the stock?




1584230676934.png


This is how it works:

2) You still have not disclosed your sources when you stated that they are "drowning in losses". As I said, even if they get the management fees monthly, the money is coming whether you like it or not.

3) in the end, it is not a Coronavirus posting mainly so I will leave it at that.
 

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
This thread proves Danny has too much time on his hands. :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
thank you for taking from your busy schedule to intervene :)
 

ocdb8r

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
1,651
Reaction score
891
Sorry to tell you, they have bought back the shares in the open market throughout the year and they pump up the purchases when they think the shares have a very good value. Do you own and follow the stock?

Nothing indicates this is an OPEN market transaction. Yes, I'm a shareholder and follow the stock closely.

This is how it works:

Thanks, I'm a capital markets lawyer who has done over 100 of these transactions over the past 12 years. I'm intimately familiar with how these work. The vast majority of these occur via a public offering or private transaction at a set price. OPEN market transactions are inefficient because you're unlikely to get the block-size you want at a predictable price (all of which are necessary to get the Board approvals required to conduct such transactions). Yes, of course they do this when they feel the shares are trading at a discount to their believed value. Yes, they have done it in the past. None of that provides support for your argument that they'd initiate some quick mass enrollment event just to generate some cash to quickly buyback shares...a transaction that would have limited benefit to their share price given current events, would come at the expense of booking that cash as revenue and holding it, and would (by your very definition) deviate from whatever their current strategy is in this respect.

2) You still have not disclosed your sources when you stated that they are "drowning in losses". As I said, even if they get the management fees monthly, the money is coming whether you like it or not.

a) you missed my response above; b) you're not making sense here. Your initial comment on this piece of the discussion was "I am not sure VAC is cash stretched right now (they just collected the MF!)" - my point each time has been that having just collected the maintenance fee has no impact on VAC's cash position because it's NOT THEIR CASH. It's for the accounts of the owners associations. VAC get a monthly management fee...which they get when and regardless of the timing of maintenance fee payments.

3) in the end, it is not a Coronavirus posting mainly so I will leave it at that.

Agreed. I'm not the one who introduced the COVID-19 discussion....I just couldn't sit by and let a bunch of incorrect facts get repeatedly posted...and you explicitly asked me to justify my statements.
 

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
Nothing indicates this is an OPEN market transaction. Yes, I'm a shareholder and follow the stock closely.



Thanks, I'm a capital markets lawyer who has done over 100 of these transactions over the past 12 years. I'm intimately familiar with how these work. The vast majority of these occur via a public offering or private transaction at a set price. OPEN market transactions are inefficient because you're unlikely to get the block-size you want at a predictable price (all of which are necessary to get the Board approvals required to conduct such transactions). Yes, of course they do this when they feel the shares are trading at a discount to their believed value. Yes, they have done it in the past. None of that provides support for your argument that they'd initiate some quick mass enrollment event just to generate some cash to quickly buyback shares...a transaction that would have limited benefit to their share price given current events, would come at the expense of booking that cash as revenue and holding it, and would (by your very definition) deviate from whatever their current strategy is in this respect.



a) you missed my response above; b) you're not making sense here. Your initial comment on this piece of the discussion was "I am not sure VAC is cash stretched right now (they just collected the MF!)" - my point each time has been that having just collected the maintenance fee has no impact on VAC's cash position because it's NOT THEIR CASH. It's for the accounts of the owners associations. VAC get a monthly management fee...which they get when and regardless of the timing of maintenance fee payments.



Agreed. I'm not the one who introduced the COVID-19 discussion....I just couldn't sit by and let a bunch of incorrect facts get repeatedly posted...and you explicitly asked me to justify my statements.
1) If you are a stockholder you must have received a notification, right? Can you please tell us when VAC had ANY public offering to buy back stock in the last year?

It is not that most of the buybacks are done that way, maybe just some you have dealt with . This is an article about how Apple has been doing it, they have spent 271 billion dollars buying back stock this way.


2) I did not mean to suggest that VAC was going to use our money but rather that the Management fee they collect is not affected at all by what is going on because they have collected the Maintenence fees already. I do not know how to say it any more clear.
 
Last edited:

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
by the way, according to Wikipedia 95% of the buybacks occur in the open markets!

"More than 95% of the buyback programs worldwide are through an open-market method,[2] whereby the company announces the buyback program and then repurchases shares in the open market (stock exchange). "

 

ocdb8r

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
1,651
Reaction score
891
It is not that most of the buybacks are done that way, maybe just some you have dealt with . This is an article about how Apple has been doing it, they have spent 271 billion dollars buying back stock this way.


Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Read the Apple 10-K - these specific share repurchases you site can be done via the open market or private transactions. I can tell you that the vast majority are done via private transactions because open market transactions are difficult to conduct at volume at a predictable share price. Yes, it happens but it's not the most efficient mechanism.

More importantly, it's totally beside the main point you were trying to make when you started this thread....nothing you have said provides a compelling case for management trying to raise quick cash to do a share repurchase REGARDLESS of what mechanism they use to do it.

2) I did not mean to suggest that VAC was using our money but rather that the Management fee they collect is not affected at all by what is going on because they have collected the Maintenence fees already. I do not know how to say it any more clear.

...and I'm not sure how I can make it any clearer. When they collect the maintenance fees never matters to VAC's cash position because they are not for VAC's account. What matters is when they collect their management fees. You're the one who tied their cash situation to the timing of their collection of maintenance fees.

I am not sure VAC is cash stretched right now (they just collected the MF!) and I am sure they are still generating healthy profits. But for sure they will welcome the additional revenue and they can use it to buy back the stock at a lower valuation, a great way for the management to make sure the 2020 bonuses would be earned!
 

ocdb8r

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
1,651
Reaction score
891
by the way, according to Wikipedia 95% of the buybacks occur in the open markets!

"More than 95% of the buyback programs worldwide are through an open-market method,[2] whereby the company announces the buyback program and then repurchases shares in the open market (stock exchange). "


Let's make it easy and cede for arguments sake the un-cited wikipedia assertion that the majority of these are via open-market purchases (notwithstanding the fact that end of the same paragraph cites the SEC 10b-18 rule which clearly indicates the company must file evidence of an open market transaction, and Apple has made no such filings despite all the repurchases).

Now, that ceded, please try to articulate how any of it advances your initial assertion in this thread that the availability of an open market share repurchase somehow motivates VAC to initiate a quick mass enrollment option to raise 220mn in light of all the other reasons that have been articulated in this thread why it's unlikely.
 

ocdb8r

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
1,651
Reaction score
891
...actually, nevermind. It's really not worth it. Keep holding on to the hope that VAC offers you and everyone else quick and cheap enrollment in an undefined exchange/points plan. It, along with resisting the "worst case scenario voices" are blissful ways to get through difficult times.
 

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
Let's make it easy and cede for arguments sake the un-cited wikipedia assertion that the majority of these are via open-market purchases (notwithstanding the fact that end of the same paragraph cites the SEC 10b-18 rule which clearly indicates the company must file evidence of an open market transaction, and Apple has made no such filings despite all the repurchases).

Now, that ceded, please try to articulate how any of it advances your initial assertion in this thread that the availability of an open market share repurchase somehow motivates VAC to initiate a quick mass enrollment option to raise 220mn in light of all the other reasons that have been articulated in this thread why it's unlikely.

You provide no sources for alarmist statements like the one that VAC is bleeding cash, you make statements about things you believe you understand but you clearly do not.

My original post was a pure mental exercise that involves an important dose of speculation and it is not predictable, of course. Since we cannot agree on concrete things like the ones where you were proven wrong IMO, I find no reason to continue to engage with you on the main topic.
 

ocdb8r

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
1,651
Reaction score
891
You provide no sources for alarmist statements like the one that VAC is bleeding cash, you make statements about things you believe you understand but you clearly do not.

My original post was a pure mental exercise that involves an important dose of speculation and it is not predictable, of course. Since we cannot agree on concrete things like the ones where you were proven wrong IMO, I find no reason to continue to engage with you on the main topic.

I'm confident that anyone who reads this whole thread see's who doesn't know what they're talking about and who has been repeatedly proven wrong. I'm also confident they'll see I never used the works "bleeding cash" nor did I ever articulate VAC had any cash problem.

Agreed that you have made any engagement on your "mental exercise" completely futile.
 

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
I will let you explain what you meant by "drowning" in losses

When you offer no sources for any of your statements but choose to disagree with Wikipedia and with what companies like Apple have been doing for years, yes, it is futile to engage about this. Ironically, you claim to be a corporate lawyer (I have no reason to doubt that) and a VAC stockholder so you should be able to back your claims a little bit better.
 

ocdb8r

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
1,651
Reaction score
891
I will let you explain what you meant by "drowning" in losses

Already explained in post #12 where I apologized for any confusion.

When you offer no sources for any of your statements but choose to disagree with Wikipedia and with what companies like Apple have been doing for years, yes, it is futile to engage about this. Ironically, you claim to be a corporate lawyer (I have no reason to doubt that) and a VAC stockholder so you should be able to back your claims a little bit better.

Again, indicated you can read Apples's 10K (which clearly indicates they also do they purchases as private transactions) and the text of Rule 10b-18 which indicates if they do an open market transaction they must file the details of it. Because it's totally irrelevant, also agreed to cede the point so you could make your main point in the "mental exercise" you initiated.
 

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
Already explained in post #12 where I apologized for any confusion.



Again, indicated you can read Apples's 10K (which clearly indicates they also do they purchases as private transactions) and the text of Rule 10b-18 which indicates if they do an open market transaction they must file the details of it. Because it's totally irrelevant, also agreed to cede the point so you could make your main point in the "mental exercise" you initiated.
Sir, 10k includes blanket statements to offer the maximum flexibility to the company to do either, both or none. That kind of verbiage is copied/paste by lawyers that prepare some of these documents. It is utterly absurd to imply that Apple has bought 300 billion dollars worth of shares privately. I am not saying that these deals do not happen ever I am just saying that the preponderance is on the other side.
Companies bought back 710 billion dollars worth of stock in 2019 alone. If all these companies had to buy the stocks your way, they would have no time for doing any other business.


Like always, you offer no real sources, you are just trying to appear savant about the topic.
 
Last edited:
Top