Is this a scam?

[CCR]

So I just recently listed my Gold Odd EOY Mountainside with the official Marriott Resale Dept. I bought the unit through a resale group (Kelly Marshall with Premier Timeshare Resale) and used TRCS for closing. During that process they (The realtor with Premier and TRCS) told me I had pay the 2014 maintenance fees back to the previous owner as reimbursement for my 2015 usage at closing. I said no that wasn't correct and that the maintenance fees for 2015 usage are paid in Jan 2015 and Jan 2016 (Based on expert advice I received here on Tug). So Karina at TRCS sent a letter to MVCI Finance Estoppel Dept. to verify as she was sure that the 2014 payment was for 2015.

TRCS received a letter back from MVCI Finance stating that yes the 2014 payment was for the 2015 usage. I still didn't believe it, so called owner services at Marriott and verified again by phone and they said it really is dependent on the deed as to when they are paid and yes that Jan 2014 payment was supposed to cover the 2015 fee for the unit I was buying.

Fast forward to today. I now have a potential buyer for my EOY unit and they are telling me I have to pay the 2016 fee to cover my 2015 use. Nice... so I'll have to pay 3 years of maintenance fees for 1 use of year. I call Marriott resale and they say not my problem, I call TRCS and they feel it isn't there problem and forward me the email back from 2014 when they verified with MVCI Finance Department that 2014 and 2015 fees go for 2015 usage. So I email that department and they say yes you did pay for 1/2 of the 2013 usage year of the previous owners, take it up with the Marriott resale department. Has anyone ever had this happen to them?

This is ridiculous. Do they just do this with every resale to pocket an extra $500 to $600 dollars for each transaction. How can two different departments at Marriott say different things and now the finance department verifies that 2014 payment was actually for 2013 usage and doesn't offer to do anything to fix their mistake.

So frustrating!!!! Be warned if buying an EOY unit that Finance Department may tell you one thing and then Resale Department will tell you something else. Definitely doesn't do anything to make your Business look professional.

 

[silentg]

I have an Every other year use at Summer Bay. Have to pay Maintenence every year. Makes it seem less expensive but add 1&1 is still 2. That's why I don't like EOY.
Silentg

 

[tschwa2]

Marriott is different then other system and the MF for an EOY odd is paid on the odd year and the following year. So for 2015, technically it is paid in 2015 and 2016.

That being said sellers and buyers can negotiate what ever arrangement they want. So obviously a seller is going to try to get they buyer to pay for as many cycles of MF as possible and the buyer is going to try to pay the least. It is a little confusing because Marriott;s way of accounting is different then just about every other system. But it really only affected them (Marriott) on the first year it was sold. After that it was up to the buyer and seller to determine who pays for what. Marriott will not transfer a week if neither the buyer or seller agrees on who will pay the following use year.

I guess you have the option of telling them that they have to pay 2016 MF or you won't sell.

 

[CCR]

Marriott is different then other system and the MF for an EOY odd is paid on the odd year and the following year. So for 2015, technically it is paid in 2015 and 2016.

That being said sellers and buyers can negotiate what ever arrangement they want. So obviously a seller is going to try to get they buyer to pay for as many cycles of MF as possible and the buyer is going to try to pay the least. It is a little confusing because Marriott;s way of accounting is different then just about every other system. But it really only affected them (Marriott) on the first year it was sold. After that it was up to the buyer and seller to determine who pays for what. Marriott will not transfer a week if neither the buyer or seller agrees on who will pay the following use year.

I guess you have the option of telling them that they have to pay 2016 MF or you won't sell.

Good advice. Do you think it is worthwhile to request that the Marriott Finance Department help with this extra cost due to their mistake on their finance "estoppel" ?? I'm guessing in their mind a mistake on their part doesn't mean they should fix it.

I love my Mountainside unit and would gladly keep it. It is awesome for trades especially into Marriott preference, but my hubby says I need to get rid of it with the recent purchase of my Worldmark. I really wish the destination points enrollment option wouldn't have been so over priced or I would have gone with a Marriott point program instead of Worldmark.

 

[tschwa2]

I don't think Marriott will fix it. It doesn't sound like they provided any written response verifying anything. I think the "it depends" is their way of saying they don't care if you say 2014 MF and 2015 MF pay for 2015 usage or 2015 MF and 2016 MF pays for 2015 usage. It's what the buyer and seller agrees upon.
If you want to sell to this person who refuses to cover 2016 MF for 2017 then you will have to cover the 2016 MF. Just as you could have told the seller when you bought that you would not buy on the condition that you had to pay the previous year MF. Marriott isn't double dipping, they only receive MF once for each year.

The only way TUG members know how Marriott bills for EOY usage is there are enough members who remember when the resorts were originally sold by Marriott- how the EOY usage was marketed.

How bad to you want to sell? Do you want to wait or see if you can find someone who is willing to cover 2016 MF? I would imagine going through Marriott resales you are making more than $700 more than you paid a year and a half ago. It's up to you.

 

[presley]

CCR, I had the same experience. When I purchased an EOY, I was billed the off year towards the next use year. When I sold through them, they charged me for the year after the use year of MF, basically having me pay for 3 years of 1/2 MFs for a single year. Rather than fight it, I just wanted to get out and be done with it.

2014 and 2015 billed for 2015 use at purchase.
2015 and 2016 billed for 2015 use at sale.

 

[CCR]

I don't think Marriott will fix it. It doesn't sound like they provided any written response verifying anything. I think the "it depends" is their way of saying they don't care if you say 2014 MF and 2015 MF pay for 2015 usage or 2015 MF and 2016 MF pays for 2015 usage. It's what the buyer and seller agrees upon.
If you want to sell to this person who refuses to cover 2016 MF for 2017 then you will have to cover the 2016 MF. Just as you could have told the seller when you bought that you would not buy on the condition that you had to pay the previous year MF. Marriott isn't double dipping, they only receive MF once for each year.

The only way TUG members know how Marriott bills for EOY usage is there are enough members who remember when the resorts were originally sold by Marriott- how the EOY usage was marketed.

How bad to you want to sell? Do you want to wait or see if you can find someone who is willing to cover 2016 MF? I would imagine going through Marriott resales you are making more than $700 more than you paid a year and a half ago. It's up to you.

I do have a copy of the email from Marriott Finance that was sent to the closing office with the wrong information back in 2014 where they misquoted how the maintenance fees are paid.

Marriott Resale is the listing agent and they won't let me negotiate with the buyer. It is their way or don't sell. It really bugs that a Marriott Department makes a mistake and then they just say too bad (Pay 3 years of your fees for 1 usage). I did get an email back from the Finance Dept. saying they'll look into it. Maybe they'll take ownership for their mistake, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[CCR]

CCR, I had the same experience. When I purchased an EOY, I was billed the off year towards the next use year. When I sold through them, they charged me for the year after the use year of MF, basically having me pay for 3 years of 1/2 MFs for a single year. Rather than fight it, I just wanted to get out and be done with it.

2014 and 2015 billed for 2015 use at purchase.
2015 and 2016 billed for 2015 use at sale.

It seems fishy. That adds up to a lot of money if this happens frequently with EOY resales. There is some extra money going somewhere. I'm trying to decide if it's just the sellers/buyers that are the ones either losing or winning, and Marriott is really only getting their one maintenance fee each year.

 

[tschwa2]

I guess I thought that MF would have been covered at the time you contracted to have them list. When I sold back my EOY (not a brokered deal) the agreement clearly stated that I was responsible for the year following my use year and that usage and MF would be covered by the new owner (Marriott).

 

[CCR]

I guess I thought that MF would have been covered at the time you contracted to have them list. When I sold back my EOY (not a brokered deal) the agreement clearly stated that I was responsible for the year following my use year and that usage and MF would be covered by the new owner (Marriott).

No, the initial paperwork upon listing with them just said the maintenance fees may need to be paid or paid back to me depending on when a buyer is found (I think a standard statement on every EOY listing), but that paperwork didn't specify that 2015 use year would need to be paid in 2016 too, I just assumed the Marriott Finance Department estoppel email was correct when I closed in 2014.

Today they notified me of a potential buyer and that buyer still needs to send in the purchase agreement as it is just a verbal buyer right now. As I read through the information they sent me just today, it stated I would owe the 2016 fee still. I told them to hold off on the sale as I want to clarify with MVCI Finance before any paperwork is completed. I may want to just keep it a little longer because then that extra year of maintenance fees I paid won't feel like a lot if I use the timeshare for a few more years.

 

[BJRSanDiego]

Good advice. Do you think it is worthwhile to request that the Marriott Finance Department help with this extra cost due to their mistake on their finance "estoppel" ?? I'm guessing in their mind a mistake on their part doesn't mean they should fix it.

I love my Mountainside unit and would gladly keep it. It is awesome for trades especially into Marriott preference, but my hubby says I need to get rid of it with the recent purchase of my Worldmark. I really wish the destination points enrollment option wouldn't have been so over priced or I would have gone with a Marriott point program instead of Worldmark.

I'd dump the Worldmark and keep the Marriott. Why?
1. trades well
2. High quality resorts
3. Marriott preference
4. Is not associated with Worldmark :rofl:

 

[CCR]

I'd dump the Worldmark and keep the Marriott. Why?
1. trades well
2. High quality resorts
3. Marriott preference
4. Is not associated with Worldmark :rofl:

Yes Marriott's are very nice quality. I'd like to get my Worldmark associated with Interval just so I can see how strong that preference really is. I often wonder if I could see the same things with non-Marriott. I could flip the Worldmark, as I got it very cheap But, I really like their new Park City resort they just built, very nice....and I want to take the kids to a DVC resort this coming Spring and that only trades in RCI so Worldmark is ideal for RCI.

 

[VacationForever]

I'd dump the Worldmark and keep the Marriott. Why?
1. trades well
2. High quality resorts
3. Marriott preference
4. Is not associated with Worldmark :rofl:

You have probably never owned Worldmark. If I have to redo, I would dump Marriott and keep Worldmark. I own both.

 

[BocaBoy]

First of all, it is not three years of payments for one year of usage, because each year's payments is only 1/2 of the annual amount. I am guessing that is what OP means, but he states it in a way that looks like he is paying three times what he should. I do recognize that it is still an overpayment of half a year's fees. Marriott was not the listing broker on OP's purchase, however, and I do not know what the estoppel letter looks like, but it is true that the 2014 fees (for 2013 usage) would have to be paid for OP to get 2015 usage. Usage will be denied if they are delinquent and once OP closed he was then of course responsible for anything unpaid at that time and all charges in the future. The fact that OP paid his seller's share (2014 fee) does not mean his buyer now needs to do that also. Marriott does not care who pays them so maybe the estoppel letter was correct. Marriott does not negotiate apportionment of closing costs on sales they do not broker. OP should have had the allocation accurately specified in his contract, as this can be negotiated in a private sale just like any other closing cost. If he has a complaint, it may not be with Marriott but rather with the broker on his purchase.

Second, Marriott of course will apportion maintenance fees according to use years. They will not screw a new buyer because of something that may have happened when the current seller bought on the resale market in the past.

Finally, there is no basis for even suggesting that Marriott is collecting maintenance fees twice for the same usage. I can't find a shred of evidence of that in these posts.

It is real easy to blame Marriott for someone else's mistakes, I guess.

 

[CCR]

First of all, it is not three years of payments for one year of usage, because each year's payments is only 1/2 of the annual amount. I am guessing that is what OP means, but he states it in a way that looks like he is paying three times what he should. I do recognize that it is still an overpayment of half a year's fees. Marriott was not the listing broker on OP's purchase, however, and I do not know what the estoppel letter looks like, but it is true that the 2014 fees (for 2013 usage) would have to be paid for OP to get 2015 usage. Usage will be denied if they are delinquent and once OP closed he was then of course responsible for anything unpaid at that time and all charges in the future. The fact that OP paid his seller's share (2014 fee) does not mean his buyer now needs to do that also. Marriott does not care who pays them so maybe the estoppel letter was correct. Marriott does not negotiate apportionment of closing costs on sales they do not broker. OP should have had the allocation accurately specified in his contract, as this can be negotiated in a private sale just like any other closing cost. If he has a complaint, it may not be with Marriott but rather with the broker on his purchase.

Second, Marriott of course will apportion maintenance fees according to use years. They will not screw a new buyer because of something that may have happened when the current seller bought on the resale market in the past.

Finally, there is no basis for even suggesting that Marriott is collecting maintenance fees twice for the same usage. I can't find a shred of evidence of that in these posts.

It is real easy to blame Marriott for someone else's mistakes, I guess.

I guess I blame Marriott because I know it was Marriott's finance department that gave wrong information to the Closing/title company (I have the email). They sent wrong information to the closing company and the realtor when clarification was requested indicating that the 2014 and 2015 January payments were for 2015 usage. I told Marriott that can't be right but they insisted they were when I called them. Now of course I call Marriott resale (a different department) to have them sell it and they tell me the exact opposite and want me to pay another extra Maintenance fee in 2016 so yes 3 of my payments (1/2 year amounts) for one year usage.

How are you not understanding that Marriott made the mistake? If a realtor/closing company requests clarification from Marriott and they give wrong information it seems that is pretty straight forward. The previous owners had already paid their 2014 fee to Marriott and I was made to pay the owners back that 2014 fee at closing (based on Marriott's email). I was originally thinking that that extra fee is going to Marriott, but I'm thinking now that just some buyers or sellers just luck out when this isn't caught.

I don't think a new buyer should pay for it, but it does seem that if Marriott's Finance Department sends out wrong information a good business practice is to make it right with the customer. However I know they probably won't care to right the wrong they created by waiving 2016 fees as then they would be out the money for a year. I just know if I owned a business and made a mistake like that, I wouldn't screw over the customer. By the way Boca Boy, I'm a she not a he.

 

[tschwa2]

Marriott made the mistake. The time to fight it probably would have been at that time (especially because you had an inkling that it may not have been correct). At this point you can certainly write a complaint letter to owner services asking for help and some kind of compensation but I doubt they will budge.
My experience has been developers probably have inaccurate info on estoppel /resale sheets 10-20% of the time. Other than apologize when the true info is discovered, they do not stand by or guarantee the information provided is accurate. I have had incorrect sizes listed and I've seen one that said the unit was EOY odd when it was an even year. It makes it really hard to do due diligence. This has been with Starwood, Marriott, as well as small independent resorts.

 

[CCR]

Marriott made the mistake. The time to fight it probably would have been at that time (especially because you had an inkling that it may not have been correct). At this point you can certainly write a complaint letter to owner services asking for help and some kind of compensation but I doubt they will budge.
My experience has been developers probably have inaccurate info on estoppel /resale sheets 10-20% of the time. Other than apologize when the true info is discovered, they do not stand by or guarantee the information provided is accurate. I have had incorrect sizes listed and I've seen one that said the unit was EOY odd when it was an even year. It makes it really hard to do due diligence. This has been with Starwood, Marriott, as well as small independent resorts.

Great advice. I need to decide to sell or not based on the money invested vs return on vacations. I wish I could compare my Worldmark trading capability to my Mountainside studio deposit and 1 bedroom deposit in interval. Can anyone speak to that? Do you really notice a big difference comparing Worldmark vs. Marriott for trading to obtain good Marriott trades? Everyone talks about how strong that Marriott preference is but I wish I could really compare it.

 

[tschwa2]

You had your Marriott for about a year. Where are you looking to go and when and what size? I just got rid of my last Marriott week because I didn't feel like the exchange discount and the preference that I used was worth the extra MF's. The $40 exchange fee got gobbled up by the $80 lock off fee.

The really hard exchanges were still hard even with preference and the easy ones really don't need preference.

 

[CCR]

I'd like to go one time to KoOlina, Maui and Kaui resorts in May or early June. (2 bedroom always ideal with 3 kids) Maybe one day try Hilton Head, Williamsburg and the new DC resort.

 

[GregT]

Great advice. I need to decide to sell or not based on the money invested vs return on vacations. I wish I could compare my Worldmark trading capability to my Mountainside studio deposit and 1 bedroom deposit in interval. Can anyone speak to that? Do you really notice a big difference comparing Worldmark vs. Marriott for trading to obtain good Marriott trades? Everyone talks about how strong that Marriott preference is but I wish I could really compare it.

The Marriott preference is very very powerful. It is difficult to get a prime Marriott week without using a Marriott trader. It is very easy to get non-prime weeks with Worldmark, and the Worldmark trades well when it doesn't have to compete with a preference. It can even get prime Marriott Studios 12 months out, because most Marriott owners are trying to trade for a 1BR or larger.

With my Worldmark, I've been able to trade for:

1) Aruba Surf Club and Aruba Ocean Club 1BR units (except Jan-April)
2) Marriott St. Kitts 2BR (October)
3) Marriott Frenchman's Cove (September/October)
4) Marriott Shadow Ridge 1BR and 2BR (except Jan-March)
5) Ko Olina Studios (but never matched a 1BR)
6) Marriott Waiohai (December)
7) Marriott Mountainside (December, and off-season)
8) Marriott Timber Lodge (Studios during ski season, larger units off-season)

Note that these are mostly off-season stuff, but I've been able to match all of these with good lead time (8-10 months before check-in) and I do see things available closer to check-in. Worldmark is a great trading property, and has a great Flex Trade that neutralizes the preference if you can travel close to check-in dates. This is also important as Marriott deposits more of its owned units 60-75 days before check-in.

I don't know what size Worldmark package you bought, but it may also be worth considering owing the smallest size Worldmark package possible (6K credits annually?) and then simply renting credits from other owners when you need credits. I used to own 25K credits but learned that was very easy to rent credits from other owners, and so I sold 15K of the 25K, and now I rent what I need.

If it can be accomplished, I think the combination of the EOY Mountainside and a smaller WM package is a great combo, and leverages the benefits of both networks. You could use your intact (or locked-off) Marriott for the peak season trades that require a preference, and then make the most of Worldmark's ability to get the off-season stuff.

Please let us know what you decide to do -- and sorry that you had the extra MF payment.

Best,

Greg

 

[tschwa2]

Williamsburg you won't need preference. DC in the summer you may need preference but so far I have only seen sleeps 2 and 4 studios deposited. Hilton Head will need preference for summer for the ocean front resorts but even then it is a tough exchange. In the spring/fall you may be confirmed earlier with preference but if you are fairly open in your dates you can get in without preference.

Hawaii can be easy with preference or difficult depending on what happens to get deposited in the way of 2 br units in II. You might want to keep your Marriott and plan the Hawaii trip sooner rather than later. Getting a 2 br unit even during the spring/early summer can be difficult without preference if you want to get confirmed more than 6 months in advance.

 

[GregT]

I'd like to go one time to KoOlina, Maui and Kaui resorts in May or early June. (2 bedroom always ideal with 3 kids) Maybe one day try Hilton Head, Williamsburg and the new DC resort.

I think you will have a hard time getting the Hawaii properties unless you are using Marriott weeks. If I was trying to do this, I would target 1BR units at Ko Olina and Maui with a 1BR from your Mountainside, and then try and use the Studio to steal a 2BR at Waiohai in May (tough trade, and not simple to coordinate with your other traded week).

Worldmark isn't going to reliably get any of these, but you never say never.

Hilton Head and Williamsburg should be doable with Worldmark, if you can avoid July and August.

Let us know and thx!

 

[CCR]

Thanks you guys, all excellent advice. I have one more re trade left with my 1 bedroom Marriott deposit from 2015 so I may try to look for KoOlina May 2017 before it expires the 1st week of June 2017. I can't set up an OGS and will just have to hope something pops up.

I have 9000 points with Worldmark. Greg I really appreciate you posting your list of trades into Marriott. I had wanted to go up to 15,000 credits and find a 6000 credit to add to my 9000 but now think renting credits will work just fine.

 

[VacationForever]

I don't use Worldmark to trade. If you want to go to Marriott resorts, you really need to keep a Marriott for it. Also, Marriott preference is needed for many of the larger units, regardless of shoulder season or not. Most Marriott weeks are exchanged / taken up during the preference period. Your Worldmark will see very few Marriott outside of the preference period.

 

[taterhed]

You'll want to trim or bump that 9k contract to 7k or 10k if you're going to keep it. 9k is very inefficient...


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