Is the New point System Devaluing Resorts

[AlmostRetired]

I own a timeshare at the Monarch in HH. A fixed summer ocean view week that I can get 130K Marriott reward points every year. I often exchange into the Grand Ocean and sometimes get a ocean view room.

In the new point system I will get 3450 points. To use points to get into the Grand Ocean it will cost me much higher.

This tell me they are also devaluing some of properties if it takes you more to do the same thing.

For anyone going into the new system, how are you judging the value of your resort in new points.

If you move over to the new system can you still use it for Marriott reward points?

Is there a relationship between new points and old points?

 

[brigechols]

You should read the sticky At the top of this page which summarizes the new Marriott Destination Club and answers some of your questions.

 

[siesta]

also utilize the search function, as there have been lengthy discussions on the topics in question, particularly the "skim" (the discrepency b/w how many points your week costs to exchange into, and how many points they actually give you for it)

 

[wof45]

In the new point system I will get 3450 points. To use points to get into the Grand Ocean it will cost me much higher.

This tell me they are also devaluing some of properties if it takes you more to do the same thing.

For anyone going into the new system, how are you judging the value of your resort in new points.

If you move over to the new system can you still use it for Marriott reward points?

Is there a relationship between new points and old points?

As a quick answer --
there is no relationship between DC points and Marriott Rewards ponts.

if you enroll your week, you get several options -- all the ones that you already have, including trading your week for MRP -- you also can deposit your week for DC points.

only you can decide if the number of DC points that you get for depositing the weeks gives you what you want, and what makes sense for you in the next year or two to use.

IMHO, 3450 DC points is worth a lot more than 130,000 MRPoints, but the DC points expire after two years and MRPoints currently do not expire.

 

[m61376]

Just so you know, there are many owners who feel similarly, that their property, for whatever reason (age, accessibility, etc.) was severely undervalued. Owners of the newer HH properties were generally quite pleased with their point allocations, because HH is a desirable drive to location and in high demand, esp. by timeshare owners (even moreso than regular hotel rental visitors; although HH hotel rates do not fully reflect the higher relative valuations given to the timeshare properties, it was determined that timeshare owners in particular seek this destination). Owners at the older HH properties did not receive the same favor.

There have been many anomalies in the allocation of points. In some cases, properties were allocated more points than others that Marriott itself rents for twice the price. While it doesn't make sense to me and to many others, somewhere actuarial tables based on timeshare owners' demands dictated this distribution. For those owners, trading their property for DC points generally will hold less value that exchanging their week though II or renting it.

In reality, most owners can potentially get more value from trading their week through II because of the point allocations and the "skim" factor (Marriott awarding fewer points than the point cost to book the same week, which means that you don't have enough points to book an equivalent week elsewhere). However, using points is an attractive option for those who are willing to pay a premium perhaps for the flexibility of directly booking what they want, including size and view, rather than leaving it to chance in II for exchange. So the benefit is flexibility, albeit at a cost.

From a personal perspective, I feel my week is much more valuable as a week than as points, since Aruba owners were, imho, amongst those that got shafted (since they command one of the highest rental rates but were given point allocations that wouldn't allow reserving weeks renting for half the price in some cases). Fortunately, I still have the option to trade in weeks, and am hopeful that many other Marriott owners, such as yourself, will continue to feel the same and trade in weeks so that the pool in II will continue.

Again, in my opinion, what that mans is that available inventory for trading will be split into two pools, with week owners trading in weeks continuing to trade via II and point owners using points to trade for each other's deposits into the DC system and to reserve trust inventory exchanged from within the DC program for that inventory. The balance of inventory in each system is apt to change over the years.

 

[WINSLOW]

.

From a personal perspective, I feel my week is much more valuable as a week than as points, since Aruba owners were, imho, amongst those that got shafted (since they command one of the highest rental rates but were given point allocations that wouldn't allow reserving weeks renting for half the price in some cases).

With the recent MRP Category change for the Aruba Surf Club and the Ocean Club from a level 7 to a level 8, What do you think the chances are of Marriott adjusting the DC points allotment either way (receiving and/or requesting) for these resorts?

Is it too early for them to start messing (changing) point numbers? Or with all the request for these resorts, do you think they will start adjusting points to get more Aruba weeks into the DC?

 

[wof45]

With the recent MRP Category change for the Aruba Surf Club and the Ocean Club from a level 7 to a level 8, What do you think the chances are of Marriott adjusting the DC points allotment either way (receiving and/or requesting) for these resorts?

Is it too early for them to start messing (changing) point numbers? Or with all the request for these resorts, do you think they will start adjusting points to get more Aruba weeks into the DC?

IMHO, this probably means that DC will raise the points needed for a reservation rather than change DC points awarded.

we have no idea how many weeks are really deposited for points, since those are the only ones that are available for MVC to DC reservation requests. So, we have no real idea of supply / demand for sold out resorts in DC.

since the owners here say they will use or trade their weeks with II or rent them on redweek, etc, I can't see anything MVC might do changing owners to depositing weeks into DC.

 

[iamnotshopgirl]

IMHO, this probably means that DC will raise the points needed for a reservation rather than change DC points awarded.

I agree. IMHO Marriott is going to do what is best for Corporate Marriott and not the owners. They are in business to make a profit albeit at the expense of owners.

bob

 

[m61376]

With the recent MRP Category change for the Aruba Surf Club and the Ocean Club from a level 7 to a level 8, What do you think the chances are of Marriott adjusting the DC points allotment either way (receiving and/or requesting) for these resorts?

Is it too early for them to start messing (changing) point numbers? Or with all the request for these resorts, do you think they will start adjusting points to get more Aruba weeks into the DC?

One is Marriott Reward Points and one is DC points. They have stated that hotel and timeshare renters are different than timeshare owners and based their point allocation on that logic. While common sense would seem to dictate that if it was worth more in $$'s, or more in Marriott Reward points, it should also be worth more in destination points, but....

I think that DC point allotments MAY change over time, but only IF the DC is unable to fulfill reservation requests because of skewed point allocations or costs. That is, IF they find that there are fewer Marriott week exchanges for points and thus fewer weeks available for point requests, combined with a higher than anticipated request rate because for a point user Aruba is a relative bargain, they MAY make those adjustments along the way. But only if Marriott feels it is in THEIR- not our- best interest.

 

[wof45]

I don't think this has anything to do with Marriott at all.

This appears to be simple supply / demand economics.

There are only a few weeks available through MVCD at, for example, Aruba, and lots of people who would lke to go to Aruba.

MVCD will set the purchase price of the weeks they have at Aruba to clear the market, so if there is a waiting list, they will increase the points needed to make a reservation.

Since Aruba is sold out, this is not really a free market, since owners decide to use or trade with II or deposit with DC.

MVCD has presumably set the deposit amount for points for existing weeks at one that would clear the market if people deposited their weeks. It wouldn't make sense to increase that amount, since they would then have more people deposing for DC points and then there would be more supply than demand.

I think if anyone is waiting to get more DC points for a deposit, it is not likely to happen. Each of us decides if we get enough DC points to make the reservations that we want. If we do, we deposit weeks for DC points, If we don't, then we use or trade or rent the time.

 

[WINSLOW]

While common sense would seem to dictate that if it was worth more in $$'s, or more in Marriott Reward points, it should also be worth more in destination points, but....

IMHO, this probably means that DC will raise the points needed for a reservation rather than change DC points awarded.

I kind of thought that already, but was hoping that they would award more just to get more weeks into the DC system.

I still haven't joined the DC, as the only week we would put into points would be our St Kitts week and we would want to use the points to go to Aruba more often, but when reading some of the posts on being able to book Aruba it doesn't seem like it is an easy exchange thru DC, as no Aruba owners want to exchange their weeks into DC points.

 

[Cmore]

I agree that supply and demand have largely driven the scheduling as to DC points allotments. Not saying they are all fair or equitable, but they somewhat make sense and probably indicate demand.

They are likely to tweak things in coming years just as they have done with MR points. I don't think we'll see adjustments on the fly in the middle of years, but rather as they roll out a new points schedules. The current one is online as being for 2011-2012.

Regarding the "skim" I can only speak for the weeks that I have. Cypress Harbor Summer season is a flat 7% more to get than receive. Our Red DSII week, averages the same 7% skim for the season (if I did the math correctly), However, all of Feb and Mar) at +25% over what you receive is a bit much. IMO, seems they could have had a few more 3000 point weeks and a couple less 2275 & 3775 point weeks on the "use" side. Overall I don't think the 7% loss is unfair given they are offering so much flexibility on arrival days, length of stay, etc. If you can stay Sun -Thur you can actually come out quite well.

I am not trying to equate it to weeks, we "opted in" primarily for the annual savings we'll get and the increased flexibility. We'll still do most of our depositing with II, but will use some points and may even do one of the explorer trips. Personally, I like having more options and I really like being able to revert back to my week 100% if the points ever got to where they didn't make sense.

 

[Luckybee]

Since Aruba is sold out, this is not really a free market, since owners decide to use or trade with II or deposit with DC.

Someone please correct me if Im wrong but Im pretty sure the Surf Club isnt sold out. The Ocean Club has been for sometime but since preview packages are still available for the Surf, and tours are still being offered I dont think they are anywhere near sold out .

 

[Latravel]

I agree. IMHO Marriott is going to do what is best for Corporate Marriott and not the owners. They are in business to make a profit albeit at the expense of owners.

bob

What is best for Corporate Marriott is good for owners. We are not independent from each other. It is in our best interest for Marriott to flourish, do well and make more innovative products. I hope very much that Marriott Corporation does good and does what's best for them. That is what I expect them to do and what a well run organization should do.

 

[BarbS]

What I find interesting is that all the timeshares in Hawaii are Category 5 and 6. I could not get anywhere near enough points from my Category 8 oceanfront Aruba week to trade into a Category 5 or 6 week in Hawaii. Does that make sense to anyone? IMO it's a no brainer to lock off my week, deposit both sides into Interval, and hope for an AC like I've always gotten in the past. 3 weeks for 1 week sound like a much better deal to me.

 

[iamnotshopgirl]

What is best for Corporate Marriott is good for owners. We are not independent from each other. It is in our best interest for Marriott to flourish, do well and make more innovative products. I hope very much that Marriott Corporation does good and does what's best for them. That is what I expect them to do and what a well run organization should do.

Heidi

Respectfully...You and I completely differ on the above statement. If you think Marriott is the greatest thing since apple pie and ice cream your sadly mistaken. IMHO Marriott does whats best for Marriott and when they make changes to the system it's to benefit the shareholders not the owners. There are a lot of unhappy Tuggers here on these boards that take exception to the changes and the roll out of the new DC program. I like the product but I do not like some of the changes that Marriott has made over the years and the reason is the changes (not all) do not benefit the timeshare owner IMHO. Just a couple of examples I will let others chime in. ROFR why is it that Marriott is not exercising their right? Do you think that by not exercising their right that it does not have an affect on resale prices?Rental Policy...why is it now they have to except your week into their program? Were you told that when you bought the developer price? I sure was not! Reward points isn't it time for another devaluation? DC program the "skimming" issue. I could go on but whats the point. In the end the only thing that Marriott owes me as an owner is the vacation...nothing else.

bob

 

[Cmore]

Is there a list anywhere of what weeks owners are receiving in DC points? I know there is published lists of what it costs in points to visit various spots. I would be curious to see if the difference is similar between resorts/seasons.

BarbS. - I think the issue with points vs weeks are really apples and oranges, they are two different products and it is difficult to try and equate the two. I suspect most weeks owners will stay with weeks and only choose to elect points in years when they want more flexibility or what they want in points is advantagous.

Long term,the real issue is how much of an effect on "weeks" will the new program have on trading. As weeks owners we have benefited from Marriott's bulk space deposits and I am guessing that more of that inventory will stay in the points pool now, as they want to make sure points trading is easy. I have already inquired and found inventory in points at existing "sold out" resorts that were not available thru II. I don't think there is anything sinister going on, just that Marriott has probably retained a certain number of weeks at all the resorts and those are being pushed into points inventory now.

 

[SueDonJ]

What is best for Corporate Marriott is good for owners. We are not independent from each other. It is in our best interest for Marriott to flourish, do well and make more innovative products. I hope very much that Marriott Corporation does good and does what's best for them. That is what I expect them to do and what a well run organization should do.

Heidi

Respectfully...You and I completely differ on the above statement. If you think Marriott is the greatest thing since apple pie and ice cream your sadly mistaken. IMHO Marriott does whats best for Marriott and when they make changes to the system it's to benefit the shareholders not the owners. There are a lot of unhappy Tuggers here on these boards that take exception to the changes and the roll out of the new DC program. I like the product but I do not like some of the changes that Marriott has made over the years and the reason is the changes (not all) do not benefit the timeshare owner IMHO. Just a couple of examples I will let others chime in. ROFR why is it that Marriott is not exercising their right? Do you think that by not exercising their right that it does not have an affect on resale prices?Rental Policy...why is it now they have to except your week into their program? Were you told that when you bought the developer price? I sure was not! Reward points isn't it time for another devaluation? DC program the "skimming" issue. I could go on but whats the point. In the end the only thing that Marriott owes me as an owner is the vacation...nothing else.

bob

I agree with Heidi's post in that if Marriott as a company doesn't flourish then we all stand to lose much more than what's perceived to have been lost already.

I also agree with some of what you've said, Bob, in that some of the business decisions that Marriott has made do result in a devaluation of the timeshare product. But what you say about Marriott owing you only the vacation is true! Whatever is in your contract is what Marriott owes you - nothing more and nothing less. It may be that you've felt more or less "valued" by Marriott at different times during your ownership, but that value isn't quantified or guaranteed by anything in your contract.

I just don't think it's necessary for an owner to believe that "Marriott is the greatest thing since apple pie and ice cream" in order to recognize that a healthy Marriott business is better for owners than if it was unhealthy. Not everything they do is going to benefit my individual ownership, but I'm more worried about their business not flourishing than I am about losing the perceived value they place in me as a customer. What I've bought is a contract; if their business fails that contract is worthless.

 

[SueDonJ]

Is there a list anywhere of what weeks owners are receiving in DC points? I know there is published lists of what it costs in points to visit various spots. I would be curious to see if the difference is similar between resorts/seasons. ...

Not an official list, no, but TUGger GregT is compiling one and keeps the link in his signature. The pdf file can be accessed here.

 

[Cmore]

Not an official list, no, but TUGger GregT is compiling one and keeps the link in his signature. The pdf file can be accessed here.

Thanks, I will look that up and also see if the list needs some additions. BTW - I agree with your general take on most Marriott related things as I have been viewing various threads. Definitely some interesting reading on TUG.

 

[iamnotshopgirl]

I agree with Heidi's post in that if Marriott as a company doesn't flourish then we all stand to lose much more than what's perceived to have been lost already.

I also agree with some of what you've said, Bob, in that some of the business decisions that Marriott has made do result in a devaluation of the timeshare product. But what you say about Marriott owing you only the vacation is true! Whatever is in your contract is what Marriott owes you - nothing more and nothing less. It may be that you've felt more or less "valued" by Marriott at different times during your ownership, but that value isn't quantified or guaranteed by anything in your contract.

I just don't think it's necessary for an owner to believe that "Marriott is the greatest thing since apple pie and ice cream" in order to recognize that a healthy Marriott business is better for owners than if it was unhealthy. Not everything they do is going to benefit my individual ownership, but I'm more worried about their business not flourishing than I am about losing the perceived value they place in me as a customer. What I've bought is a contract; if their business fails that contract is worthless.

Susan

My point is this. Marriott is going to do what is best for their shareholders and to their bottom line. In that context I agree with you. In order to survive and to flourish as a business Marriott will make "business decisions" that quite frankly will alienate and upset some owners and I quess you can throw me in that group. I agree with you again when you stated:

"Not everything they do is going to benefit my individual ownership, but I'm more worried about their business not flourishing than I am about losing the perceived value they place in me as a customer. What I've bought is a contract; if their business fails that contract is worthless."

bob

 

[SueDonJ]

Susan

My point is this. Marriott is going to do what is best for their shareholders and to their bottom line. In that context I agree with you. In order to survive and to flourish as a business Marriott will make "business decisions" that quite frankly will alienate and upset some owners and I quess you can throw me in that group. I agree with you again when you stated:

"Not everything they do is going to benefit my individual ownership, but I'm more worried about their business not flourishing than I am about losing the perceived value they place in me as a customer. What I've bought is a contract; if their business fails that contract is worthless."

bob

Like you I wish ROFR was still being exercised. I'm hoping (not quite optimistic yet, though) as time goes on and if the timeshare ship gets righted by recent developments, that when the inventory they're holding dwindles a bit then we'll see some consistent ROFR. It's a way other than development for them to convey inventory to the DC Trust. I don't think we'll ever see major increases in resale values, but I'd love to see resales stop free-falling and begin to hold their own.

Until then the occasional ROFR pick-up (wasn't there one on TUG for a HI week the other day?) at least shows me that Marriott still has an interest in the market. It's terrible that we can't ask for much more at this point. Sure are interesting times to be Marriott owners ...

 

[hotcoffee]

. . . since those [i.e., weeks from points elections] are the only ones that are available for MVC to DC reservation requests. . . .

I don't think this is a true statement in two ways:

1. my understanding is (from having talked to someone at Marriott) that all enrolled weeks that are exchanged either via DC elections or via II are available for internal DC exchanges;
2. any non-enrolled week that has is being exchanged through II can be traded to DC in exchange for an equivalent week out of DC inventory. This means that non-enrolled weeks from the II inventory can also be used to satisfy a DC exchange.

 

[hotcoffee]

What is best for Corporate Marriott is good for owners. We are not independent from each other. It is in our best interest for Marriott to flourish, do well and make more innovative products. I hope very much that Marriott Corporation does good and does what's best for them. That is what I expect them to do and what a well run organization should do.

I agree with your basic premise. Those wishing for the DC program to go down in flames are by extention wishing for the new spin-off company to fail. That would not be a good thing for any of us. While I am not at all optimistic that the economy will ever return to what it was in the past, I do hope that the Marriott spin-off flourishes. I am also hoping for some customer-oriented changes down the road that will:

1. improve resale values by enabling future resales a way to get into the DC program and by providing an acceptable resale option for points,
2. provide a better enrollment incentive to encourage a higher percentage of enrollments,
3. provide cheaper DC exchange options so as to encourage more people to buy points outright,
4. provide more places to exchange into in more locations.

 

[TJCNewYork]

Not an official list, no, but TUGger GregT is compiling one and keeps the link in his signature. The pdf file can be accessed here.

Very helpful reference info - thanks for pointing out GregT's PDF.