Is Marriott [Bonvoy] dead to us? Should it be to you?

[MULTIZ321]

Is Marriott dead to us? Should it be to you?

Is Marriott dead to us? Should it be to you?

Marriott has given us a rough week. The expansion of what is essentially blackout dates to legacy SPG properties and largely negative 2020 category changes had many readers asking us the obvious question: is it time to cut and run? Should we all dump the Marriott credit cards? Is Marriott dead...

frequentmiler.boardingarea.com

Richard

 

[vol_90]

Nope! Still value to be found in some of the category 8 dream vacations where the room rates are more than we are willing to pay and you can get $0.015 to $0.02 per point. I'll keep my Bonvoy Visa and AMEX for now.

 

[darius]

Lots of value at the higher end side of properties (which are the only ones we redeem for anyhow unless the value at least 1 cent per point redemption).

I can understand in lower categories people may get frustrated but if you are staying at St. Regis, Ritz, JW Marriott, etc - there is major value. Even better with a travel package.

 

[Sicnarf]

Actually even at lower properties you can save by paying with points versus $. For example, 40000 points is better than $450 for 1 night at Las Vegas Rennaisance for 2/15-16/20 or 12500 points versus $140 at 4Points SLC 3/16-17. The key is to compare point versus $ cost when booking a reservation.

 

[rthib]

Stayed at rooms that would have cost $400+/night. Then added on my Suite Night and upgraded to Suite which were $1000+/night. My only real complaint is they need to do something about the free night awards. Would be great if they added a buy up option. That is where the category changes annoy me.

 

[MOXJO7282]

Certainly not the value they once were but still an added free perk that is still worth chasing.

 

[Mr. Vker]

It doesn't have the value it used to, but still has use. I used to only use points for Travel Packages and got good value from the Chase Certs. Now I just use them almost as fast as I earn them for add on nights etc. That way I minimize devaluation. First two weeks of March is a trip for my 50th. All Bonvoy and good value.

 

[csalter2]

I pay absolutely ZERO for points so anything I get is worth value to me. I don’t buy points I just use them. So what if they don’t have the value they once did? That would be a nice to have, but when you are NOT coming out of your pocket, just be thankful. Is that wrong fo me to think that way? I hear lots of people complaining about the value for something that does not have to be. It’s a perk and you’re not entitled to it. If you don’t like the program, just pay for your room.

 

[Mr. Vker]

I pay absolutely ZERO for points so anything I get is worth value to me. I don’t buy points I just use them. So what if they don’t have the value they once did? That would be a nice to have, but when you are NOT coming out of your pocket, just be thankful. Is that wrong fo me to think that way? I hear lots of people complaining about the value for something that does not have to be. It’s a perk and you’re not entitled to it. If you don’t like the program, just pay for your room.

I totally disagree with this post. The loyalty programs are designed to promote loyalty...commitment from the guest to repeatedly choose a particular chain. There are people that bounce from chain to chain without loyalty themselves. Your statement applies to them. But those that have maintained loyalty only to have points/plans greatly devalued absolutely have the right to be frustrated. It's not a perk. Its a benefit they promote to earn business. FYI, it is coming out of my pocket. Don't tell me costs of a loyalty program aren't built into room rates.

This is no different than flying one airline for a year-being loyal, earning miles on a program the airline created and promoted-to find out the FF tickets are going up 20% next year or something similar. Can the airline or hotel chain do it? Sure, its in the terms. Can I be aggravated? Definitely. People go out of their way to be loyal. Maybe an extra connection, or longer drive. Its part of the ecosystem. It is something we are entitled to. Why? Because the company says so.

 

[csalter2]

I totally disagree with this post. The loyalty programs are designed to promote loyalty...commitment from the guest to repeatedly choose a particular chain. There are people that bounce from chain to chain without loyalty themselves. Your statement applies to them. But those that have maintained loyalty only to have points/plans greatly devalued absolutely have the right to be frustrated. It's not a perk. Its a benefit they promote to earn business. FYI, it is coming out of my pocket. Don't tell me costs of a loyalty program aren't built into room rates.

This is no different than flying one airline for a year-being loyal, earning miles on a program the airline created and promoted-to find out the FF tickets are going up 20% next year or something similar. Can the airline or hotel chain do it? Sure, its in the terms. Can I be aggravated? Definitely. People go out of their way to be loyal. Maybe an extra connection, or longer drive. Its part of the ecosystem. It is something we are entitled to. Why? Because the company says so.

Yes, it’s to promote loyalty but it’s not an entitlement to people. It’s a freebie! They can stop the program whenever they want. I am Titanium with Marriott and my wife is Diamond level with Hilton. We spend no money out of our pockets for the benefits afforded us. When we stay in upgraded rooms, eat meals that are free, stay in rooms for free, etc., we recognize that it’s a nice to have but not something that we are ENTITLED TO HAVE. Because I am loyal to your brand does not mean I HAVE TO GET SOMETHING. All of the programs devalue at some point because of inflation. That should be understood. How much will usually not be liked by the people who are experiencing the devaluation. That’s a given..

Whatever, people do to earn those points is A CHOICE. Marriott/Hilton whatever has just dangled a carrot out there. It is up to you if you want to take a bite at it. Your payment of the room rate is not for the loyalty program. In fact some properties lose money on the loyalty program. You pay money because you need a place to stay. As an added perk for staying at a particular brand you get the added perk of points or whatever they give. They don’t have to and they can stop it whenever. We load all of our expenses on certain cards for airfare and hotels. We pay off our cards each and every month to not have a balance. Freebie money for us so any devaluation if no skin off of our nose because we did not invest anything monetarily. if anything I have wasted some time talking with a salesperson uselessly trying to sell me points.

We obviously see this differently, but that’s the beauty of life. We are all individuals

 

[Mr. Vker]

Yes, it’s to promote loyalty but it’s not an entitlement to people. It’s a freebie! They can stop the program whenever they want. I am Titanium with Marriott and my wife is Diamond level with Hilton. We spend no money out of our pockets for the benefits afforded us. When we stay in upgraded rooms, eat meals that are free, stay in rooms for free, etc., we recognize that it’s a nice to have but not something that we are ENTITLED TO HAVE. Because I am loyal to your brand does not mean I HAVE TO GET SOMETHING. All of the programs devalue at some point because of inflation. That should be understood. How much will usually not be liked by the people who are experiencing the devaluation. That’s a given..

Whatever, people do to earn those points is A CHOICE. Marriott/Hilton whatever has just dangled a carrot out there. It is up to you if you want to take a bite at it. Your payment of the room rate is not for the loyalty program. In fact some properties lose money on the loyalty program. You pay money because you need a place to stay. As an added perk for staying at a particular brand you get the added perk of points or whatever they give. They don’t have to and they can stop it whenever. We load all of our expenses on certain cards for airfare and hotels. We pay off our cards each and every month to not have a balance. Freebie money for us so any devaluation if no skin off of our nose because we did not invest anything monetarily. if anything I have wasted some time talking with a salesperson uselessly trying to sell me points.

We obviously see this differently, but that’s the beauty of life. We are all individualss

I'll agree with your last line for sure.

 

[Steve Fatula]

I pay absolutely ZERO for points so anything I get is worth value to me. I don’t buy points I just use them. So what if they don’t have the value they once did? That would be a nice to have, but when you are NOT coming out of your pocket, just be thankful. Is that wrong fo me to think that way? I hear lots of people complaining about the value for something that does not have to be. It’s a perk and you’re not entitled to it. If you don’t like the program, just pay for your room.

I agree. We did a south pacific / asia trip,last year that cost us mostly 0, including flights. All paid for by Bonvoy points. Which we paid nothing for. The biggest perk for us, unpopular to many, is the 'presentations". Earned a few hundred k points last year on those. Already have 50k this year, and it's Feb, lol. Assuming surgery goes well, hoping for a free including flights trip to Kenya for dw and I, again, paid by Bonvoy points. As long as they offer them to us, we gladly accept.

 

[Dean]

I totally disagree with this post. The loyalty programs are designed to promote loyalty...commitment from the guest to repeatedly choose a particular chain. There are people that bounce from chain to chain without loyalty themselves. Your statement applies to them. But those that have maintained loyalty only to have points/plans greatly devalued absolutely have the right to be frustrated. It's not a perk. Its a benefit they promote to earn business. FYI, it is coming out of my pocket. Don't tell me costs of a loyalty program aren't built into room rates.

This is no different than flying one airline for a year-being loyal, earning miles on a program the airline created and promoted-to find out the FF tickets are going up 20% next year or something similar. Can the airline or hotel chain do it? Sure, its in the terms. Can I be aggravated? Definitely. People go out of their way to be loyal. Maybe an extra connection, or longer drive. Its part of the ecosystem. It is something we are entitled to. Why? Because the company says so.

I would take an in between view leaning heavily to the facts it's a freebie add on. Technically & contractually I would agree with Carlito and this is my usual view on things in general. However, I would suggest that there are judgments to be made on the usage side as to how much one wants to value the points and thus target certain options that are a better value vs just using the points when the situation arises. Over the years I save points looking for the perfect usage and most of the things we could use them for were not a good value so we didn't. Then as we've seen several devaluations, I've become a lot less selective on the value I get per point though I still look at it in that light then make a decision. I'm generally able to get 1ç per point or close to it when I use points. Actually I think it's been easier for me to get the value the last few years even with the points devaluation due to increases in hotel rates.

 

[PaulaC]

I agree. We did a south pacific / asia trip,last year that cost us mostly 0, including flights. All paid for by Bonvoy points. Which we paid nothing for. The biggest perk for us, unpopular to many, is the 'presentations". Earned a few hundred k points last year on those. Already have 50k this year, and it's Feb, lol. Assuming surgery goes well, hoping for a free including flights trip to Kenya for dw and I, again, paid by Bonvoy points. As long as they offer them to us, we gladly accept.

Just wondering how you got 50k for presentations this year? I thought there was a limit to how often you could do a presentation and earn points. Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[Steve Fatula]

Just wondering how you got 50k for presentations this year? I thought there was a limit to how often you could do a presentation and earn points. Inquiring minds want to know!

They ask me every time at every mvci, so, I go if the offer is worth it. If it's too cheap, I tell them it's not worth my time, and they either say goodbye or they up the offer. It's a money maker for me.

I did 5 or 6 last year. I've even said what you said and they simply say they are making an "exception".

I'm convinced my developer bought timeshare was free (presentations funded) though I didn't keep enough records to say for sure.

 

[Quilter]

Yes, it’s to promote loyalty but it’s not an entitlement to people. It’s a freebie! They can stop the program whenever they want. I am Titanium with Marriott and my wife is Diamond level with Hilton. We spend no money out of our pockets for the benefits afforded us. When we stay in upgraded rooms, eat meals that are free, stay in rooms for free, etc., we recognize that it’s a nice to have but not something that we are ENTITLED TO HAVE. Because I am loyal to your brand does not mean I HAVE TO GET SOMETHING. All of the programs devalue at some point because of inflation. That should be understood. How much will usually not be liked by the people who are experiencing the devaluation. That’s a given..

Whatever, people do to earn those points is A CHOICE. Marriott/Hilton whatever has just dangled a carrot out there. It is up to you if you want to take a bite at it. Your payment of the room rate is not for the loyalty program. In fact some properties lose money on the loyalty program. You pay money because you need a place to stay. As an added perk for staying at a particular brand you get the added perk of points or whatever they give. They don’t have to and they can stop it whenever. We load all of our expenses on certain cards for airfare and hotels. We pay off our cards each and every month to not have a balance. Freebie money for us so any devaluation if no skin off of our nose because we did not invest anything monetarily. if anything I have wasted some time talking with a salesperson uselessly trying to sell me points.

We obviously see this differently, but that’s the beauty of life. We are all individuals

id say you are paying for those points. Marriott is not a charitable organization giving them away. Somehow they are recovering their cost.

Even earning points at presentations come at a cost to everyone in the program. The cost of marketing used to be rolled into the price of a week. Now it needs to be rolled into maintaining the sale of DC points.

whenever you choose to use a point collecting credit card from a loyalty program you are paying for those points by leaving the cash back card in your wallet.
There is no free lunch.

 

[Big Matt]

I think you have to split loyalty programs into two parts. The first part is the elite status. That's worth a ton to me. It takes a long time so you really have to double down on one program until you achieve the highest status. The second part are the bonus points/miles, etc. Those are different from program to program, and to me, it is all just a personal preference on how you use them. My beef with Marriott is how the travel package value eroded. That was a great bargain while it lasted.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Points are not free. It is an opportunity cost because the other option is to obtain a 2% cash back card. Cash is king - most flexible and does not devalue as rapidly as hotel points.

I see this as similar to a person can put their money into a .01% savings account, or more savvy investors will park in a 2% account. Some may find a rare account at much greater value.

There likely are pockets of greater value in Bonvoy than 2% but those are becoming fewer and harder to find. One should not ask if compared to $0 but should compare to 2% cash back card and paying cash for the room.

 

[alchook]

Anyone traveling to Africa would be well advised to look at Protea hotels. I stayed at the Livingstone, Zambia Protea this summer. The rooms go for about $250/night, but it is a Category 1 hotel, so a 5 night stay was only 30,000 points.

 

[Steve Fatula]

Even earning points at presentations come at a cost to everyone in the program. The cost of marketing used to be rolled into the price of a week. Now it needs to be rolled into maintaining the sale of DC points.

That is absolutely true. But many / most do not do presentations, and yes, they fund my earnings. It is true there is no free lunch. However, it is also true program usage can be optimized generally for your benefit such that you earn more than it costs you.

But the program being offered to mvci owners is a "freebie" in the sense that it doesn't have to be, it's not in the contracts. It can be withdrawn. Is it truly free? No. Might as well use it and get value out of it else you are paying for nothing.

Regarding 2% cash back.... If I spent 5k on MF, I'd have $100 on a 2% card. If I used bonvoy card, I'd get 30,000 points, which I still use for about 1c each, so, that's $300 value, even devalued it's more than 2%. For other expenses, you're correct.

 

[rickandcindy23]

This past Friday evening we stayed at Marriott's Courtyard on Maui by the airport to save on airfare from SEA to OGG on Friday, as opposed to our check-in day at Hono Koa of Maui. We saved $400 on airfare for the two of us. The Courtyard was our free night with the card. I was very pleased with the room (the location is fine, by Costco). It was nice, and it was free, had a shuttle from the airport, and it would have been $400 + tax per night to stay with cash. So it was worth it to us.

While we were on the road from Denver to Orlando and back home to Denver (long driving trip), we stayed at three Marriott hotels on the way. Two were Townplace Suites, one was 10K points and the other was 15K points. We liked both hotels a lot. We also stayed in a brand new Spring Hill Suites for 15K points. All were excellent and all gave us good rooms and great breakfast in the AM. I am a believer in Marriott points, and that is a bit of a relief. Love that card now.

 

[ljmiii]

Regarding 2% cash back.... If I spent 5k on MF, you'd have $100 on a 2% card. If I used bonvoy card, I'd get 30,000 points, which I still use for about 1c each, so, that's $300 value, even devalued it's more than 2%. For other expenses, you're correct.

It's the 'other expenses' part which is killing me. Until recently I was all set - Marriott for Marriott, SPG for Starwood, Hilton for Hilton, gas, and supermarkets, Discover for whatever they are paying 5% on, Chase Sapphire Reserve for travel and restaurants, and United (nee Continental) Presidential Plus for United and everything else.

Through judicious use I had been able to get excellent value out of each pot of points. Over the past few years, the value of United for 'everything else' was starting to fall below 2 cents/point...but the Flexible Premier Qualifying Miles made up the difference. But the Flex PQMs aren't flexible anymore starting this year (they aren't miles anymore either...but that is a different story). So I upgraded my SPG to the Amex Bonvoy and have been using that as my 'everything else' card. And now this.

It looks like the Amex Bonvoy is a 'one and done' since my goto cat 5 hotels for a one night stay are becoming cat 6. For that matter, the places we want to stay five nights are all increasing. And Marriott isn't doing lifetime status levels that matter anymore so there really is no reason to accrue Bonvoy points. I think I need to get a 2% cashback card.

So yes, Bonvoy is dead to me in the sense of no longer having any desire to accrue Bonvoy points. Of course I'll take what's given and use them as best as I can but as a 'loyalty' generator the program has become meaningless. And don't get me started on the whole SNA non-upgrade nightmare at my recent ex-Starwood property.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Regarding 2% cash back.... If I spent 5k on MF, I'd have $100 on a 2% card. If I used bonvoy card, I'd get 30,000 points, which I still use for about 1c each, so, that's $300 value, even devalued it's more than 2%. For other expenses, you're correct.

YMMV. There are pockets of value. However, every time they devalue (and they will do it again) it increases the relative benefits of 2% cards and more flexible points currencies eg Chase Rewards. This is why airlines like United are wondering why people are not lining up for their cards and mileage runs anymore.

What sucks is with increasing Bonvoy devaluation velocity, points earned last year based on expected valuations made at the time, are now worth less when you have earned and are ready to use this year.

Bottom line: Need to evaluate against future devaluations not current valuations. (But not clear how to do that easily.) We are hanging onto our anniversary night cards for now but not actively collecting more points.

 

[vol_90]

For us devalued or not Mariott Bonvoy point values come way out ahead of any cash back card. We do spend a lot with Marriott on maintenance fees $21K, sometimes point purchases (2017 $14K & 2019 $63K to enroll weeks) and easily over 175 days a year in Marriott's between my wife and I.

2019 was a good points year on credit cards especially if you catch special's (AMEX had 25,000 to 100,000 bonus if you spent $25K to $100K which was great for a Marriott Destination Point purchase year).

Probably TMI but here are spend profiles for 2019 (we use 3 credit cards for almost everything)

Marriott VISA - $40,979 for 153,145 Bonvoy Points
Marriott AMEX - $128,117 for 594,434 Bonvoy Points
Chase Sapphire VISA - $47,538 for 115,015 Chase Points

We try to use Chase Sapphire for flights and restaurants only. AMEX on all other purchases (minimum 2X Bonvoy points) and the Marriott VISA for stays only as the free night covers the annual fee. We are not perfect at managing spend per card but trying to maximize where we can.

Do I like devaluation? No but still finding strategic point values (only use if we get above $0.01 per point) vs. chasing other point or cash back options. Marriott is not dead to us at least for a few more years. If they would only make us stop going to the Maldives on points

 

[jancurious]

We also have a Chase Sapphire credit card and with the devaluation from Marriott have decided to pretty much only use our Marriott cards to pay for Marriott expenses or maintenance fees. I can book a comparable hotel in any city with my Chase Sapphire rewards for 7,000-15,000 points as opposed to using Marriott rewards and paying 35,000 for a category 5 hotel. With my Chase Sapphire card I get 3 times the points whenever I use it for travel or dining (the majority of our spending) and 1 times the points for everything else. For my Marriott card I get 6 times the points for Marriotts and 2 times the points for everything else. It became obvious which credit card was giving us more value. I also feel keeping the Marriott card makes sense even just for the anniversary free night award.

This analysis will probably be different for each individual.