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Inexpensive title transfer?? [merged]

chemteach

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I recall there was a person on TUG who did title transfers very inexpensively. (I'm giving away a timeshare so there is no escrow - just paperwork) Can anyone forward me information for an inexpensive title change company or the person on TUG who does this if they know?

Thanks!!!
 

DeniseM

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Many people have used Tugger TTT (Alan) at Time Travel Traders for this service in the past, but he is retired and is referring most business to Lisa Short for this service - 1.706.969.8906 readylegal@gmail.com Lisa has been receiving good reviews on TUG.

Note that this is for a simple deed preparation - not escrow or any other services.
 

Rent_Share

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do it yourself
 

hajjah

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I used Lisa last year and she is just as awesome as Alan! Everything was done extremely quickly and professionally. The low fees can hardly be beat. I think I paid around $115.00 total.
 

Carolinian

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do it yourself

That is not only the cheapest, but also often more accurate than multi-state timeshare closing companies. Just copy EVERYTHING on the existing deed ACCURATELY changing the names of course. From what I have seen in the Dare County Register of Deeds office, DIY timeshare deed preparers have a MUCH greater chance of recording a deed that is valid to transfer title than these multi-state timeshare transfer companies (the one exception being one multi-state timeshare closing company that uses qualified personel from each state to prepare their deeds).

If you are giving away a timeshare, you do not want to suddenly discover down the road that legally you still own it because of a screwup of an unqualified el-cheapo deed preparation?

Please note that in many states it is a violation of the criminal law for a person not licensed to practice law in that state to prepare a deed, unless that person is a party to the deed as either buyer or seller. If you have a timeshare deed presented to you that says you prepared it and you in fact did not, then you are not only dealing with a jackleg, but a dishonest jackleg.
 
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DeniseM

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FACT - Some states do require you to use an attorney - but most states do not. Many people on TUG have used Alan and/or Lisa's deed preparation services and been very happy with them.
 
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Carolinian

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Being happy with a price indicates very little. Most Tuggers would not have the expertise to know if a deed is prepared properly or not, so I guess sometimes ignorance may be bliss until something blows up.

Another Tugger spent some time compiling a list of states where the law requires using a licensed attorney, with the understanding that it would become a sticky. That would be very useful information for Tuggers. Will it be posted as a sticky on this thread or is it already somewhere else on the site?

While I have not seen deeds that I could identify from these operations, I have seen recorded deeds from many of the multi-state jackleg closing companies that eBay sellers require customers to use, and a high percentage of them are defective, many to the point that they are invalid to pass title.

Many of these operators use a ''one size fits all'' approach and use a deed form from some state, probably the one they are located in, which is probably adequate for that state, but due to quirks in real property law between states may not be valid in others. Additionally, certain things that customers want may require very specific language to accomplish in some states that such operations are totally clueless about. For example, many buyers want to take title as tenants in common, which can be accomplished in many states with fairly simple language, but that is not always true. For example, in North Carolina, the legislature many years ago abolished tenancy in common by statute, but the State Supreme Court then said you could still create it if you used certain very specific lanuage. I have seen many deeds from timeshare closing jacklegs that use the simple tenancy in common language from other states in NC deeds, and the buyers are probably blissfully ignorant that they do not in fact have a legal tenancy in common in NC. That may come back to bite them when one of the owners dies and they have to go through a seperate probate in NC when they live in another state.

The sad thing for many is that they think if the deed gets recorded, it is okay, but the Register of Deeds only looks at a handful of aspects of the deed mostly related to its notarization and does not pass on its legal validity.



FACT - Some states do require you to use an attorney - but most states do not. Many people on TUG have used Alan and/or Lisa's deed preparation services and been very happy with them.
 

DeniseM

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Being happy with a price indicates very little. Most Tuggers would not have the expertise to know if a deed is prepared properly or not, so I guess sometimes ignorance may be bliss until something blows up.

Another Tugger spent some time compiling a list of states where the law requires using a licensed attorney, with the understanding that it would become a sticky. That would be very useful information for Tuggers. Will it be posted as a sticky on this thread or is it already somewhere else on the site?

The info. was posted in that thread [where it was discussed], but I'm not going to make a sticky out of it, because the info. provided was not clear, and I don't want to validate info. that might not be correct, by making it a sticky. The poster who provided the Info. started off by saying that "most" states require an attorney to prepare the deed, but then his own data showed that 69% do NOT require an attorney. Then he only wanted to include the handful of states that support his assertion, and ignore the rest. Then he asserted that notaries are "baby attorneys." Based on that info., I'm not comfortable hosting a sticky, [containing info. that I can't personally verify.]
 
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Timeshare Von

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I used Lisa last year and she is just as awesome as Alan! Everything was done extremely quickly and professionally. The low fees can hardly be beat. I think I paid around $115.00 total.

Ditto this recommendation. I don't recall what she charged me to do the deed work for the T/S I gave away last year, but it was very reasonable.
 

Dave H

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The info. was posted in that thread [where it was discussed], but I'm not going to make a sticky out of it, because the info. provided was not clear, and I don't want to validate info. that might not be correct, by making it a sticky. The poster who provided the Info. started off by saying that "most" states require an attorney to prepare the deed, but then his own data showed that 69% do NOT require an attorney. Then he only wanted to include the handful of states that support his assertion, and ignore the rest. Then he asserted that notaries are "baby attorneys." Based on that info., I'm not comfortable hosting a sticky, [containing info. that I can't personally verify.]

However Denise, you figured the 69%. I am not going to go there again. You read things like in Florida an attorney must prepare the deed except a title company pursuant to the issuance of a title insurance policy. It is not complicated. Unless your a party to the transaction OR a title company issuing title insurance then you must be an attorney. Your favorite company is neither a party to the transaction (buyer or seller), they are not a title company, therefore they are not issuing title insurance and by your own admission, they are not a lawyer. Since they meet none of the requirements to draft a deed, then they are practicing law illegally subject to prosecution by the State Bar and or the State Supreme Court. Hardly what I call "legal".

It is not confusing. Your problem is you do not understand title transfers and what is or is not the practice of law. Another example was Lousiana. In Louisana you must be an attorney or a Louisiana Notary. Notaries in Louisiana go through just about as much training as a lawyer and are legally allowed to prepare certain legal documents. Again, if you did my job as a closing commpany you would understand the law better.

Oh and by the way, please quote me correctly. I said a Lousiana CIVIL LAW NOTARY is the equivilent to a baby lawyer. And in Lousiana that would be a 100% correct legal statement. Here this is from the Louisiana Notary Association:

Using an experienced, commissioned Louisiana Notary Public can be an extremely cost-effective and wonderfully convenient alternative for legal document preparation and execution. The Louisiana Notary, a civil law notary, has broad powers usually reserved for attorneys in other states. A Notary can draft, prepare and execute affidavits, acknowledgments and authentic Acts.
 
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DeniseM

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Here is what you said:

Yes, while in 69% of the country you can prepare deeds, here is my question. The biggest states for timeshare are in no order:

Florida
California
Hawaii
South Carolina
North Carolina
Tennessee
Virginia

Of the 7, only 1, California does not require an attorney. So your 31% odds just went to 86% require an attorney to prepare the deed or be a party to the transaction.

First you agreed that 69% of the states do NOT require an attorney, and then you said, let's not include all the states, let's just include the 7 states that support my statement.

That is just not logical, and that's why I'm not comfortable validating it with a sticky.

Since the deed preparation companies are competing with you for business on TUG, you may not be able to be completely impartial on this topic. Quite honestly, your constant attacks on other TUG members who are your competitors, is probably not doing your business much good. You may want to rethink that strategy.
 
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Carolinian

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Who cares if the states that have little or no timeshare require an attorney or not? The important areas of concern for timesharers are the states where lots of timeshare is located, and looked at that way, it is apparent that the majority of timeshares are located in jurisdictions where jacklegs preparing deeds is a violation of the criminal law and/or civil law.

I don't get why you are so resistant to sharing this information in a meaningful way. TUG is supposed to be all about having timesharers informed.

And why should the illegal business of those who willfully and wantonly violate the criminal laws of various states on a regular basis be promoted on these boards? I would not want someone who regularly thumbs their nose at the criminial law working for me in any capacity, even if they are cheaper. Dave's company, PCS Holdings, is the only one I am aware of that follows the law and uses qualified professionals from each state to prepare their deeds, and yet their fees do not seem much different from those closing companies who use jacklegs. From what I recall from Dave's posts, he has not attacked DIY deed preparation or using an attorney local to where the timeshare is located, both of which would also be competitive to his business but which are legal. I totally agree with his posts, however, about those who try to cut corners by violating the criminal law in this business.



Here is what you said:



First you agreed that 69% of the states do NOT require an attorney, and then you said, let's not include all the states, let's just include the 7 states that support my statement.

That is just not logical, and that's why I'm not comfortable validating it with a sticky.

Since the deed preparation companies are competing with you for business on TUG, you may not be able to be completely impartial on this topic. Quite honestly, your constant attacks on other TUG members who are your competitors, is probably not doing your business much good. You may want to rethink that strategy.
 
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Carolinian

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Oh and by the way, please quote me correctly. I said a Lousiana CIVIL LAW NOTARY is the equivilent to a baby lawyer. And in Lousiana that would be a 100% correct legal statement. Here this is from the Louisiana Notary Association:

Using an experienced, commissioned Louisiana Notary Public can be an extremely cost-effective and wonderfully convenient alternative for legal document preparation and execution. The Louisiana Notary, a civil law notary, has broad powers usually reserved for attorneys in other states. A Notary can draft, prepare and execute affidavits, acknowledgments and authentic Acts.

Your point about Lousiana is well taken, and there is a reason Louisiana is different. The law of the other 49 states is based on English Common Law, while that of Lousiana is based on the Code Napoleon, which is French law. In the other 49 states, there have been statutory and case law changes to English Common Law since 1776, but they have many similarities as they all started the same place. Louisiana started from a much different place in its law, and of course it has had changes too over the years.

One aspect of the Code Napolean, which is either the basis or a big influence on the legal systems of most if not all contiental European countries, is that a Notary Public has a much larger role than in the English system. They are much more highly trained and have far greater responsibilities. While in the US, the distinction between two types of lawyers, Solicitors and Barristers, is now largely history, it is still an important distinction in the UK, and in continental Europe as well as Louisiana, a Notary Public has much the same role as a Barrister in the UK.

You are quite right that the qualifications and responsibilities of a Notary Public in Louisiana are far different from someone with the same title in other US states. Yes, they are ''baby lawyers'' in Louisiana and most if not all of continental Europe, but they would definitely not be in any Common Law jurisdiction such as the other 49 states.
 
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Carolinian

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Here is a good explanation of Unauthorized Practice of Law and its consequences:

http://www.ncbar.com/public/upl.asp

I am aware, that based on complaints from HOA's about screwy deeds from these people, some of the multi-state timeshare closing companies have already been issued Cease and Desist Letters by the NC State Bar, the last step before referring them for criminal prosecution. If they keep on with what they have been doing, some of them may be doing the perp walk.

To my knowledge, only one multi-state timeshare closing company bothers to comply with the law in this area.

For those who are strongarmed into using designated closers on an eBay transaction, if the timeshare is in a state where that closer is violating Unauthorized Practice of Law statutes, that should give you the leverage to force them to let you use someone else. Tell them either they agree to let you use who you want or you will file a complaint against them and the closer (who is usually tied to the seller) with the State Bar of the state where the timeshare is located.
 
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DeniseM

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One more time for the record-

I am not comfortable hosting material that:
1) is not clear and was massaged and contradicted by the very person offering it
2) I cannot verify myself
3) was provided by someone who is trying to undermine a competing business - also a TUG member.

Like it or not, in most states, it is clearly legal to use a deed preparation service, including the state that I live in. As a TUG member, I have the same right as all other members to discuss and recommended services I have used, and I will continue to do so.

*Just to clarify - the "data" that I'm being asked to post as a sticky is nothing more than Dave H's own notes interpreting the TS laws of more than 50 states and territories. It's not verifiable info. from an authoritative source. Ironically, Dave H is not an attorney, either.
 
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Carolinian

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One more time for the record-

I am not comfortable hosting material that:
1) is not clear and was massaged and contradicted by the very person offering it
2) I cannot verify myself
3) was provided by someone who is trying to undermine a competing business - also a TUG member.

Like it or not, in most states, it is clearly legal to use a deed preparation service, including the state that I live in. As a TUG member, I have the same right as all other members to discuss and recommended services I have used, and I will continue to do so.

Dave is not only a TUG member but an active poster AND a TUG advertiser.

I think you could verify it if you chose to take the time to do so. Someone asked me that very question in that other thread, and I frankly said I did not have the time to do so but there might be another Tugger who already had much of the info. Dave researched it and presented it. If someone wants to disagree, then they should do their own research.

It appears that the ''contradictions'' are mostly from misunderstandings of those reading it, like assuming that a statement about Lousiana notaries public was applicable to notaries public in the other 49 states, which of course it would not be.

As to undermining a competing business, I have never seen Dave say a bad word about a legal competing business such as using a lawyer local to where the timeshare is located or even DIY. What he has pointed out is that too many in that business operate illegally, and that is a very valid point. It is a bit like someone with a legal liquor distillery complaining about moonshiners. Moonshine may taste good to some and may be cheaper, but made wrong, it can also kill you.

The test of legality of using a jackleg to prepare a deed is NOT based on the state you live in, but the state where the timeshare is located. That is why the North Carolina State Bar has issued Cease and Desist letters to jackleg timeshare closing companies located in other states which have prepared and recorded deeds for North Carolina timeshares in violation of North Carolina law.

So the important thing for information for Tuggers is knowing which states where timeshare is located require use of properly qualified professionals. From Dave's research, that includes 6 of the 7 states with the largest numbers of timeshares, so it undoubtedly includes the majority of US timeshares.
 
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Dave H

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One more time for the record-

I am not comfortable hosting material that:
1) is not clear and was massaged and contradicted by the very person offering it
2) I cannot verify myself
3) was provided by someone who is trying to undermine a competing business - also a TUG member.

Like it or not, in most states, it is clearly legal to use a deed preparation service, including the state that I live in. As a TUG member, I have the same right as all other members to discuss and recommended services I have used, and I will continue to do so.

*Just to clarify - the "data" that I'm being asked to post as a sticky is nothing more than Dave H's own notes interpreting the TS laws of more than 50 states and territories. It's not verifiable info. from an authoritative source. Ironically, Dave H is not an attorney, either.

I again beg to differ with you, those are from Fidelity National Title Insurance Company the LARGEST national title company in the United States.

Again, if one does not have her facts straight, then one should be careful on how she opens her mouth, or she may stick her foot in it. Also, never claimed to be an attorney. I am however a licensed title agent in 22 states, still having issues?
 

DeniseM

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First of all, you never disclosed the source of your notes, and I'm not a mind reader. [Regardless of the source - they are still rough notes, with several contradictions - feel free to post them - no one is stopping you.]

Secondly, I find it ironic that you insist that everyone must use an attorney (even in the 69% of states where is isn't required) but on the other hand, you claim to be qualified to interpret timeshare law yourself - but you aren't an attorney.

I have tried to keep this thread, and the other threads on this topic focused on the facts, but over and over again, you feel the need to make it personal. I find your attacks on other TUG members to be distasteful, and offensive, and I would never do business with you.

That's just my personal opinion - and not as a representative of TUG.
 
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Carolinian

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While Dave can certainly respond to your post himself, there are a number of points I want to make in support of his position.

First, what matters on correctness of deeds is real property law
not timeshare law. While timeshare law is based on a Uniform Act that is adopted in all 50 states and so is relatively uniform except for the older timeshaers still under predecessor laws. Real property law, however, is very state specific and there are variations between states. Someone has to understand local law in the state where the timeshare is located to get it right. The ''one size fits all'' approach to deed forms used by many of the jacklegs is a recipe for disaster. Timeshare law deals mostly with operation of resorts not how to convey one's timeshare interest to another. That falls under general real property law.

Second, AGAIN, as to the law you have to follow, it is totally irrellevent what state you LIVE in. What matters is the law of the state where the timeshare is located

Third, your ''69%'' figure seems based on some of your own misinterpretations, like Louisiana and seems to involve mostly states where there is little timeshare.

Fourth, I haven't seen anything that Dave has posted that would be a personal attack. He takes the position that people in his business should obey the law, which is a quite reasonable position in any business. I only know Dave through his posts here, but I am impressed that his seems to be the only multi-state timeshare closing company that has the integrity to use only properly licensed personnel in compliance with the law, and something I have just learned in this thread that his company has also gotten properly licensed in 22 states to handle escrow. Personally, I would have a lot more confidence in an operation that obeys the laws and does thing by the book, rather than one that thumbs its nose at the law and cuts corners to try to put a larger part of the fee in their own pocket.

As to Alan, or ttt, he is a longtime Tugger who is clearly a committed timesharer and has posted on a wide variety of timeshare matters, and I respect him, even if I regret that his former sideline business may have strayed from legal requirements. My gut feeling was always that Alan was a sincere guy whose sideline was mainly trying to help out fellow timesharers, rather than someone just out to make a buck by deviating from the law at times. I do not get the same gut feeling about Lisa, as I have not seen the range of posts like I did with Alan. Also, I find the audacity of calling her business ''ReadyLegal'' when she is not a lawyer and in many states is operating in violation of the law to be appalling.

Personally, I prefer the approach of educating timesharers about what is legal or not, and that is why I have kept asking about the sticky. Fully informed timesharers can then know if the state their timeshare is in allows what the jacklegs are providing or not. Often a qualified professional only charges a few more dollars that the jackleg, and you know you will get it right from the professional. Of course, there is also the temptation to generate complaints to the appropriate legal authorities so that they will come down like a ton of bricks on the scofflaws. I don't mean to single out Lisa, because there are many scofflaws working in the timeshare closing industry.

BTW, Dave's source is a title company, and they are not likely to spin things in favor of lawyers, as those companies are always trying to move in themselves on what lawyers do, so if anything their analysis is going to be tilted in favor of non-lawyers doing as much as possible. While Dave might not be a lawyer, he has a much better grasp of the law than what I have seen in your posts.


First of all, you never disclosed the source of your notes, and I'm not a mind reader. [Regardless of the source - they are still rough notes, with several contradictions - feel free to post them - no one is stopping you.]

Secondly, I find it ironic that you insist that everyone must use an attorney (even in the 69% of states where is isn't required) but on the other hand, you claim to be qualified to interpret timeshare law yourself - but you aren't an attorney.

I have tried to keep this thread, and the other threads on this topic focused on the facts, but over and over again, you feel the need to make it personal. I find your attacks on other TUG members to be distasteful, and offensive, and I would never do business with you.

That's just my personal opinion - and not as a representative of TUG.
 
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TUGBrian

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why not just stick to answering the question of the OP, vs all this arguing.
 

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Why not a sticky with the info from the title insurance company and site the source? Perhaps there is a link right to a page on their website. The key thing is to have that info where Tuggers can find it easily.
 

Talent312

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I used Lisa for a closing and was quite happy with her services, not just becuz she was inexpensive ($75 + resort transfer fee), but becuz when issues arose with the timing and the transfer, she provided additional assistance to make sure they were dealt with effectively.

----------------------
IMHO, a list of which states require use of an attorney or some other licensed professional, citing the legal basis and not just someone's compilation, could be useful.

For example, in Florida, the state's Supreme Court has ruled:

It is illegal (unlicensed practice of law) for a non-lawyer to prepare a warranty deed, quitclaim deed, trust, lease or mortgage, for someone other than himself.
-- Florida Bar v. Irizarry, 268 So. 2d 377 (Fla. 1972); Florida Bar v. Hughes, 697 So. 2d 501 (Fla. 1997); Florida Bar v. Lister, 662 So. 2d 1241 (Fla. 1995); Florida Bar v. Valdes, 464 So. 2d 1183 (Fla. 1985).

However, a title insurance company may prepare documents incident to the issuance of title insurance, if the company is actually issues the title insurance.
-- The Florida Bar v. McPhee, 195 So. 2d 552 (Fla. 1967).

A real estate licensee may prepare a contract for sale, but not any other documents.
-- Keyes Co. v. Dade County Bar Association, 46 So. 2d 605 (Fla.1950).

--------------------------------------
BTW, percents are tell you nothing about your particular situation.
It only matters where the TS is located.
 
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Carolinian

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You may have hit upon something. Rather than quibble about who put together a particular list, maybe the sticky should be entitled something like ''States which restrict who can prepare deeds'' and then have specific posts for each state with citations or links to official sites like what you have provided for Florida and this one for North Carolina:

http://www.ncbar.com/public/upl.asp

Whatever the format, this is valuable information for timesharers who may be buying, selling, or gifting a week of timeshare.


I used Lisa for a closing and was quite happy with her services, not just becuz she was inexpensive ($75 + resort transfer fee), but becuz when issues arose with the timing and the transfer, she provided additional assistance to make sure they were dealt with effectively.

----------------------
IMHO, a list of which states require use of an attorney or some other licensed professional, citing the legal basis and not just someone's compilation, could be useful.

For example, in Florida, the state's Supreme Court has ruled:

It is illegal (unlicensed practice of law) for a non-lawyer to prepare a warranty deed, quitclaim deed, trust, lease or mortgage, for someone other than himself.
-- Florida Bar v. Irizarry, 268 So. 2d 377 (Fla. 1972); Florida Bar v. Hughes, 697 So. 2d 501 (Fla. 1997); Florida Bar v. Lister, 662 So. 2d 1241 (Fla. 1995); Florida Bar v. Valdes, 464 So. 2d 1183 (Fla. 1985).

However, a title insurance company may prepare documents incident to the issuance of title insurance, if the company is actually issues the title insurance.
-- The Florida Bar v. McPhee, 195 So. 2d 552 (Fla. 1967).

A real estate licensee may prepare a contract for sale, but not any other documents.
-- Keyes Co. v. Dade County Bar Association, 46 So. 2d 605 (Fla.1950).

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BTW, percents are tell you nothing anbout your particular situation.
It only matters where the TS is located.
 

TUGBrian

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agreed, if someone compiles an accurate list, ill put up a page/sticky with the info for all.
 
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