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Implications of new high points resorts and high open season rates

win555

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As I was doing some reading in a few threads, I came up with a hypothesis. I don't have any data to test the hypothesis but I'm posting it for discussion.

Hypothesis: HGVC is introducing high points resorts and high open season rates to benefit their own bottom line at the expense of new and current owners

Operational strategy:
  • Build new resorts with high points costs. Use high points benefit to sell to new buyers. Make money on the higher selling price.
  • Owners of high point weeks will redeem weeks for points to book more nights in other locations. Locations with favorable points cost will become competitive and some owners will be shut out. The points may expire and owners will pay fees to save points to next year and keep competing for the limited subset of good inventory. Or book a lower demand/value unit/location/season, which they would not have otherwise.
  • People with high points week can also book other units with high points costs so revenue to the club is intact.
  • The units with high points costs will sit empty because they cost too many points and there aren't enough other high points weeks owners to book them. And the open season rates are too high. The legacy owners don't have enough points to book those weeks or they are outraged having to spend so many points. If legacy owners complain, ask them to upgrade at sales presentations to a high points week as a solution.
  • Increase open season rates to a point where it doesn't make sense for owners to book with open season. Now this open season inventory can be appropriated by HGV to rent out for their own financial benefits. It doesn't look like this revenue is shared with individual HOAs. Non-timeshare owners often plan last minute trips, so it's perfect to have access to this inventory for renting out by blocking out current owners. Renting out to the public increases pipeline of sales prospects as well.

Implication for owners:
  • The club may be headed in a downward spiral.
  • Buying a points generator week with HGV may be risky long term. Too much competition for high value units making the value of the club questionable.
  • If you want to use your home week, why pay club fees? One post mentions desire to leave the club. Why not buy a resale week with Marriott and pay no club fees. Marriott weeks are lower purchase price than comparable HGV locations in the areas I looked at like Las Vegas or Orlando.
  • Owners of weeks with high value but low points may not want to participate in the club so the club may be swimming in weeks that most club members don't want to book.
  • The club could go in a similar direction like WM: good inventory is difficult to book. High points/open season cost makes much of the other inventory unsuable for even for off season travelers. Almost everybody is a loser except the developer/club manager.

Data needed to validate hypothesis:
  • Lots of availability to book with points in advance at location that generate points at a favorable $/point.
  • Extremely difficult booking high value locations (this is the case in Worldmark).
  • Low open season utilization but high overall utilization due to rental of inventory unused by club members.
  • Sales pitch touting the advantages of buying high points locations.

the days go otherwise unused by the time Open Season rolls around, HGV does obtain defacto “control” of those dates. If they were acting as an agent for the owner as you suggest, then the revenue from the Open Season rental would go to the owner, but any Open Season revenue goes to HGV. So when an owner uses an alternative benefit, or once it goes unused at Open Season, control effectively reverts to HGV.


Never have used OS in about 10 years of HGVC ownership. While no loss to me I am still appalled that HGVC does this. I though OS rooms at Lagoon tower belong to the owners of the deed. These are days that owners did not use and HGVC is renting out as breakage to line their bottom lines. They do not own the unit or even pay the MF as the owners have. Pretty good racket, I can make money off of someone else paying for the upkeep and not even giving something back to at least the HOA. Total profit for no expense and I even got paid by the HOA to do this via the management fee.

Increases are one sided.

As an owner, my annual cost are increasing as well.
  • Maintenance Fees
  • Annual Club Dues
  • Transaction Fees
HGVC offers owners a fix rate exchange for Hilton Honor Points and Club Partner exchanges that DO NOT INCREASE.

However on the flip side, HGVC continues to increase Open Season Rates which allows them to make more than what they are providing in exchange.

And we get to pay for this “Club Member benefit” every year via our increasing annual Club dues. How is this a benefit?

For my Lagoon Tower week, I rather have the option of opting out of the Club.
Yeah, I know no ClubPoints (home week only) but also no annual Club Dues and no transaction fees. The minimal additional cost now is approaching the $300 mark ($182 for 2020 Club Dues + $67 for 2019 Club reservation fee).


But sadly, almost everything about the program can be modified at management’s discretion.

From the 2019 Club Rule (page 20)

Program Changes. Club program use options, fees and rules, including but not limited to, the RCI Exchange Program, special exchanges, nightly point values, reservation windows, the Hilton Honors program, ClubPoint Saving, RCI Depositing, Borrowing, Converting, and ClubPartner Perks that may be offered from time to time, are subject to change, adjustment, suspension or discontinuation without notice . Any such changes will not apply to transactions confirmed prior to the effective date of any such change . In the event the point values for accommodations are adjusted, such adjustments shall not disturb the one-to-one purchaser to accommodation ratio, or a Club Member’s ability to reserve their Home Week .
 
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brp

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Hypothesis: HGVC is introducing high points resorts and high open season rates to benefit their own bottom line at the expense of new and current owners

So, to summarize, you're hypothesizing that a business is taking steps to increase revenue and profits and this may not always be in the best interest of their consumers?

The analysis is interesting but, to me, this hypothesis is obvious in any business I deal with. There is no such thing as a "loyalty" program that is based on loyalty to the best interests of the members at all times, These are for-profit companies and this is what they're supposed to do. This is what I'd do. Any other expectation when entering into a relationship with such a company is, IMO, naive. And, trust me, I've seen many a comment along these lines on various boards talking about various "loyalty" programs.

Or, more succinctly, "yes, and...?"

Cheers.
 

win555

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Hypothesis: HGVC is introducing high points resorts and high open season rates to benefit their own bottom line at the expense of new and current owners


So, to summarize, you're hypothesizing that a business is taking steps to increase revenue and profits and this may not always be in the best interest of their consumers?

The analysis is interesting but, to me, this hypothesis is obvious in any business I deal with. There is no such thing as a "loyalty" program that is based on loyalty to the best interests of the members at all times, These are for-profit companies and this is what they're supposed to do. This is what I'd do. Any other expectation when entering into a relationship with such a company is, IMO, naive. And, trust me, I've seen many a comment along these lines on various boards talking about various "loyalty" programs.

Or, more succinctly, "yes, and...?"

Cheers.

Certain companies try to increase their profits by providing value to the customer. e.g. Costco, Southwest, Gyms, and many others. There is value creation and not just value transfer.

HGVC seems to be engaging in value transfer or destruction rather than creation.


With loyalty programs one can walk out without a big loss. But walking out on a timeshare is one two two orders or magnitude bigger loss than a loyalty program.
 

brp

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Certain companies try to increase their profits by providing value to the customer. e.g. Costco, Southwest, Gyms, and many others. There is value creation and not just value transfer.

HGVC seems to be engaging in value transfer or destruction rather than creation.

Fair points. As a decade-long HGVC owner, however, your assessment of their approach doesn't resonate with me. I do have one of the higher-priced resorts and, since we use those points exclusively there, I don't feel it has an impact elsewhere, as mentioned in the other thread you stared on the similar topic. Of course, others' experiences may differ.

Cheers.
 

Talent312

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Certain companies try to increase their profits by providing value to the customer. e.g. Costco, Southwest, Gyms, and many others. There is value creation and not just value transfer.

Tim Cook, CEO of Apple, says that his company has a "providing value" policy. In a recent interview on CBS, he said that Apple tries to make products that provide a better value, create a place for liberal arts and engineering to intersect, believe in inclusion and diversity, and in giving back to communities in need. He said that, if he could, he'd be in the audience of his own annual developer meetings. IOW, that Apple tries to be a responsible citizen.

It seems to me that there are plenty of companies that could learn this lesson.
.
 

DEROS

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This is my point of view:

Companies will always look out for their own interest but must also weigh in the concern of the customer. No customer = No business, No Profit = No business, No business = No profit. Which is why I believe HGVC has the right Time Sell business model to help the new and the old customer. Why....

The one thing good about HGVC is, other than home week, everybody is treated equal when reserving space. For example, a person with 14,400pts that want to stay in Lagoon Tower Hawaii, will have to reserve 9 mths/open season, along with everybody else, which includes the 4800pt owners. Unless HGVC changes the rule, the high point value owners do not have first in line rights to reservation during open season. My opinion, after owning HGVC for 10+ years, having a lot of points is harder to use, especially if you go for the inexpensive older HGVC resorts to save points or get more days than the normal 7 days by reserving a smaller unit for less points per day. For example, I take 1 long (7 Day) vacation a year. That is about how much I can afford, take time off, and have enough points to do. However, If I had the new high point 14.4k and up, I would still have several thousand points I would need to use up or pay to move forward. Moving forward with not help me because it would just make next year that much more harder to spend the points. So this high point ownership would actually force me to forgo staying at the Lagoon Tower (lower points) and staying at the Waikikian or Grand Islander (assuming I don't own there). There has been times when I did reserve more than one room because I invited family but that is once in a blue moon. Also it is hard trying to reserve online, two units for the same dates, especially for a high demand date and location.
 

DEROS

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Tim Cook, CEO of Apple, says that his company has a "providing value" policy. In a recent interview on CBS, he said that Apple tries to make products that provide a better value, create a place for liberal arts and engineering to intersect, believe in inclusion and diversity, and in giving back to communities in need. He said that, if he could, he'd be in the audience of his own annual developer meetings. IOW, that Apple tries to be a responsible citizen.

It seems to me that there are plenty of companies that could learn this lesson.
.

However, Apple is still a business for profit and their customer relationship shows it. That feel good story is just a marketing ploy. Their unwritten policy is to deny all issues with their consumer electronics. Fight like heck against all class action lawsuits. After many years of denial, admit to the failure but not offer a permanent fix. The fix is to replace defective component with the same defectively designed component. Example, 2011 MacBook Pro. GPU design flaw. Will replace failed logic board with same defectively flawed logic board. Lawsuit took so long, they only needed to do this for 2 years because by law, after 10 years, computer manufacturers don't need to repair regardless if they are still operational. iPhone denied that they were throttling CPU speed as battery degraded. Told customer to buy a new phone because the old one can't keep up with the new operating system. Finally admitted they were throttling because of battery and only offered a discount battery replacement. Still continues to throttle CPU speed because they are announcing in the EULA and the customer by using the iPhone has accepted. Butterfly keyboard in the new MacBook. Still defectively designed but they will only replace it with the same defectively designed keyboard. Told customers that their new MacBook has a new and improve keyboard that fixes the failure of the old keyboard. Hint: Buy our new MacBook. Lastly, there is a reason why they doing all the manufacturing in China. A country known for their lax environmental laws and dubious working conditions. They need to make the gap between cost to manufacture and sales price, to maximize profit. Can they make products here in the U.S. and still make a profit? Of course they can but the profit will not be as high as they wanted, without raising sales price.

I am not against Apple. I own iPads, Apple TV, and a couple of computers. However, I don't buy into any of the 'Big' companies feel good stories of social justice.
 

CaliSunshine

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Worldmark has been going through the same thing. The developer is financially incentivized to increase point requirements for newer resorts because they essentially transfer a portion of the value you receive to their new sales.
 

brp

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However, Apple is still a business for profit and their customer relationship shows it. That feel good story is just a marketing ploy.

Great post. But this is the pith.

Cheers.
 

CalGalTraveler

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I believe your hypotheses is overstated. What is missing are are three actions owners can take:

1) If you own a week at a legacy property and don't trade, you will always have first priority during your home week. (buy where you want to go) If you really want that summer week at Myrtle Beach, then buy a resale at the fraction of the cost. No one (even high point owners who paid $100k at a new property) can take away your deeded rights to use that week; club points are second priority for reservations.

Deeded home week is where HGVC (and Vistana) are superior compared to pure points trusts. Sure there are club fees but you also get access to open season rates and can easily trade the unit for short stays elsewhere if your life situation or tastes changes. Cannot do that with an MVC deeded unit unless you pay a hefty premium to enroll the week, or pay fees to II to deposit the week for another week. We can compare the MF for both as well depending on the location to see which is better. Give us a location and we can compare the MF cost + club vs. MVC + II (or potentially enrollment) for an apples to apples comparison.

2) If you trade with points, resale owners don't need to remain static. If there is points inflation, simply buy another resale at a fraction of the price to use the high point properties or to upgrade your stay. Usually I am using more than my yearly point allotment to upgrade to a view or to add a bedroom. You can add a Vegas Property for 7k points for $5000- $7000, plus $1000 MF. 5k points units go for around $2k - $4k. We are talking $5k - $10k not tens or hundreds of thousands so the risk is minimal.

3) Shiny objects: Even though they are high in points, HGV club owners will want to stay at the newer properties with the higher points taking pressure off the legacy resorts. Owners can combine and bank points over years, or buy another resale (option 2).

What you are suggesting, could happen with club trading but it will happen very s-l-o-w-l-y and these other factors will offset. Short of a major upheaval, I don't think I will live that long and will have gotten maximal value out of our ownership. Nothing lasts forever. I have only run into one situation where I couldn't book club points early in the club trading window. Then a cancellation came through and eventually I got what I wanted.
 
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JohnPaul

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Worldmark has been going through the same thing. The developer is financially incentivized to increase point requirements for newer resorts because they essentially transfer a portion of the value you receive to their new sales.

And/or it costs a lot more to build a resort now - especially urban.
 

GT75

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The OP has an interesting suggestion but I don't agree with their conclusions. I agree with @CalGalTraveler. I will also add that I am not worried about a new owner purchasing a high point unit at Ocean Tower or Maui for 28K points. We both will be under the same rules to book at other resorts during the club season. Honestly, I would think if they paid that high price for Hawaii, I would think that they would use their points for Hawaii anyways.
 

brp

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Honestly, I would think if they paid that high price for Hawaii, I would think that they would use their points for Hawaii anyways.

That's the point. Folks who purchase at the high-point-price places plan to use it there. Otherwise they'd be buying in Vegas.

Cheers.
 

CalGalTraveler

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+1 @GT75 There are a lot of things that keep me up at night. This is not one of them.
 

win555

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The OP has an interesting suggestion but I don't agree with their conclusions. I agree with @CalGalTraveler. I will also add that I am not worried about a new owner purchasing a high point unit at Ocean Tower or Maui for 28K points. We both will be under the same rules to book at other resorts during the club season. Honestly, I would think if they paid that high price for Hawaii, I would think that they would use their points for Hawaii anyways.
If owners in Ocean Tower or Maui use their weeks, they won't be available to book for legacy owners in the club. What @CalGalTraveler says below won't be possible.

3) Shiny objects: Even though they are high in points, HGV club owners will want to stay at the newer properties with the higher points taking pressure off the legacy resorts. Owners can combine and bank points over years, or buy another resale (option 2).
Most likely what will happen is some Maui owners will not use their weeks and become available to club members. These Maui owners will increase competition for other legacy high value weeks such as Lagoon Tower.

And/or it costs a lot more to build a resort now - especially urban.
I understand construction costs have gone up in nominal dollars but not by 2-3x in real dollars. We also have to consider that the value of older properties has also gone up in real and nominal terms e.g. the Lagoon Tower real estate value has also gone up due to it's prime location. Newer properties are nicer so we should be expected to pay more but not more too much more than the real dollar value.

1) If you own a week at a legacy property and don't trade, you will always have first priority during your home week. (buy where you want to go) If you really want that summer week at Myrtle Beach, then buy a resale at the fraction of the cost. No one (even high point owners who paid $100k at a new property) can take away your deeded rights to use that week; club points are second priority for reservations.
Agreed, the club will have no value to me if I have to primarily rely on my deeded week. No advantage over a resale Marriott week. So there is very limited value to get from club membership.

Deeded home week is where HGVC (and Vistana) are superior compared to pure points trusts. Sure there are club fees but you also get access to open season rates and can easily trade the unit for short stays elsewhere if your life situation or tastes changes. Cannot do that with an MVC deeded unit unless you pay a hefty premium to enroll the week, or pay fees to II to deposit the week for another week. We can compare the MF for both as well depending on the location to see which is better. Give us a location and we can compare the MF cost + club vs. MVC + II (or potentially enrollment) for an apples to apples comparison.
Open season has been killed by HGV as per previous discussion, so what's the point of the club and the associated fees if you want to buy to use your deeded week? Locations common to MVC and HGVC of interest to me are Hawaii, Utah, Colorado, Southern California, Florida (beaches + Orlando). Vegas doesn't interest me much but as a point of comparison, Marriott's property there can be bought much cheaper than Elara (atleast with my preliminary research). Same with Orlando. I need to check the others.
It seems like the recommended HGVC approach is to buy in Vegas and that is very risky with the current actions of HGV.

I'm opposed to paying a ton of money to the developer so even if I bought Marriott weeks, I won't be enrolling them.

2) If you trade with points, resale owners don't need to remain static. If there is points inflation, simply buy another resale at a fraction of the price to use the high point properties or to upgrade your stay. Usually I am using more than my yearly point allotment to upgrade to a view or to add a bedroom. You can add a Vegas Property for 7k points for $5000- $7000, plus $1000 MF. 5k points units go for around $2k - $4k. We are talking $5k - $10k not tens or hundreds of thousands so the risk is minimal.
It could be done if the points increase for newer properties is reflects the market reality of the relative values of the new properties. But buying more resale purchases so that one can use a week that costs 3x more instead of the 1.5x real price increase doesn't sounds like a good idea. It's like losing your money in a casino and going back and spending more money in the hopes of making it back. If I was fooled once, I won't go back and get fooled again. Although, I have done exactly that a few times before :bawl::bawl:


What you are suggesting, could happen with club trading but it will happen very s-l-o-w-l-y and these other factors will offset. Short of a major upheaval, I don't think I will live that long and will have gotten maximal value out of our ownership. Nothing lasts forever. I have only run into one situation where I couldn't book club points early in the club trading window. Other properties at Hilton Hawaiian Village were available so there were still options available so I booked and then a cancellation came through and eventually I got what I wanted.
I don't know how fast it will happen. I haven't looked at the # units and points allocations of new resorts. Is your sense that the point currency creation is happening very s-l-o-w-l-y compared to existing stock of point currency?

While the Marriott points system is not accessible to resale buyers like HGVC, the points chart has a solid basis in demand rather than the inflationary strategy HGV is using to screw all owners. Sadly, I own't be buying into the Marriott system as it requires high fees to be paid to the developer. But you have to give them credit where it's due.

Worldmark has been going through the same thing. The developer is financially incentivized to increase point requirements for newer resorts because they essentially transfer a portion of the value you receive to their new sales.
Sadly our beloved Worldmark has been run into the ground. I'm trying to avoid another Worldmark type disaster. It looks to me that HGVC is not there but it's heading in that direction (just not sure about the speed).
 
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win555

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That's the point. Folks who purchase at the high-point-price places plan to use it there. Otherwise they'd be buying in Vegas.

Cheers.

I'm researching whether to buy in Vegas. It doesn't look like an anti-deficiency state like CA or FL. To minimize the risk of the time bomb of club health, I want to buy where I have an easy exit option when it explodes.


Nevada – NV, defaulting TS owners have no right to non-judicial, anti-deficiency foreclosures, but defaulting homeowners do: https://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-119A.html
 
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GT75

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Open season has been killed by HGV as per previous discussion, so what's the point of the club and the associated fees if you want to buy to use your deeded week?
If you want to only use your deeded week then I agree, the club and associated fees will have no value to you. For many of the affiliates (ie. Florida Gulf, Scotland, & Bay Club properties), you are not required to enroll your week into the club. But I think that your statements and conclusions don't agree. I do agree that OS has in general been kill by the increased fees but this isn't the reason for not enrolling your week into the club. But, the club rules can change, so a deeded week might be the way to go.


Locations common to MVC and HGVC of interest to me are Hawaii, Utah, Colorado, Southern California, Florida (beaches + Orlando). Vegas doesn't interest me much but as a point of comparison, Marriott's property there can be bought much cheaper than Elara (atleast with my preliminary research). Same with Orlando.

I assume you know that purchase price is only part of your cost because you will also have yearly MFs. I haven't price Marriott property but I have never had the impressions that you will be able to purchase for much cheaper than HGVC. If your statement is true and it fills your needs then I would think that Marriott would be the best option. The reason would be that Marriott has many more locations than HGVC and have high quality resorts.



Honestly, I don't understand what is the purpose of this thread. You are making statements about this health of the club which in general I don't agree with. You aren't asking the normal questions about if you will be able to utilize the club for your travel plans. If you believe the statements that you are making above are true, then I defiantly think another club would be right for you.
 
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Tamaradarann

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If owners in Ocean Tower or Maui use their weeks, they won't be available to book for legacy owners in the club. What @CalGalTraveler says below won't be possible.


Most likely what will happen is some Maui owners will not use their weeks and become available to club members. These Maui owners will increase competition for other legacy high value weeks such as Lagoon Tower.


I understand construction costs have gone up in nominal dollars but not by 2-3x in real dollars. We also have to consider that the value of older properties has also gone up in real and nominal terms e.g. the Lagoon Tower real estate value has also gone up due to it's prime location. Newer properties are nicer so we should be expected to pay more but not more too much more than the real dollar value.


Agreed, the club will have no value to me if I have to primarily rely on my deeded week. No advantage over a resale Marriott week. So there is very limited value to get from club membership.


Open season has been killed by HGV as per previous discussion, so what's the point of the club and the associated fees if you want to buy to use your deeded week? Locations common to MVC and HGVC of interest to me are Hawaii, Utah, Colorado, Southern California, Florida (beaches + Orlando). Vegas doesn't interest me much but as a point of comparison, Marriott's property there can be bought much cheaper than Elara (atleast with my preliminary research). Same with Orlando. I need to check the others.
It seems like the recommended HGVC approach is to buy in Vegas and that is very risky with the current actions of HGV.

I'm opposed to paying a ton of money to the developer so even if I bought Marriott weeks, I won't be enrolling them.


It could be done if the points increase for newer properties is reflects the market reality of the relative values of the new properties. But buying more resale purchases so that one can use a week that costs 3x more instead of the 1.5x real price increase doesn't sounds like a good idea. It's like losing your money in a casino and going back and spending more money in the hopes of making it back. If I was fooled once, I won't go back and get fooled again. Although, I have done exactly that a few times before :bawl::bawl:



I don't know how fast it will happen. I haven't looked at the # units and points allocations of new resorts. Is your sense that the point currency creation is happening very s-l-o-w-l-y compared to existing stock of point currency?

While the Marriott points system is not accessible to resale buyers like HGVC, the points chart has a solid basis in demand rather than the inflationary strategy HGV is using to screw all owners. Sadly, I own't be buying into the Marriott system as it requires high fees to be paid to the developer. But you have to give them credit where it's due.


Sadly our beloved Worldmark has been run into the ground. I'm trying to avoid another Worldmark type disaster. It looks to me that HGVC is not there but it's heading in that direction (just not sure about the speed).


I think that alot of comments here are speculative and, therefore, may or may not happen. Putting aside the effects of the Coronavirus, which is another speculative issue, there are a few things that can be said with certainty:

The open season rates in Honolulu have been raised since the demand for rooms there are in such demand that they can rent them on Hilton.com easily for premium rates to bring HGVC increased revenue if HGVC owners don't book them with their points

HGVC continues to raise the price they charge for existing properties that they sell at presentations to bring HGVC increased sales revenue without regard for the timehare resale true market value.

The high price of the new properties with high point values bring HGVC increased sales revenue. HGVC sets the price as high as they want without regard for their cost or the real estate or true timeshare resale true market value.

There is a central theme that I have bolded.
 

brp

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HGVC increased sales revenue without regard for the timehare resale true market value.

Yes, that is exactly what they should be doing. If they failed to do what they could to minimize the resale market value of their product, they would be stupid, fiscally irresponsible and then I would question their motives. All timeshare companies that I know of do this. In fact, among the systems I know, HGVC have the least restrictions on resale purchases. That benefits the owners, but one can view that as fiscally irresponsible. Again, not sure of the point here.

If it's "I want to make it easier for you to buy my product from me and harder to buy it from someone else" I'll again add "yes, and...?"

Cheers.
 

win555

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If you want to only use your deeded week then I agree, the club and associated fees will have no value to you. For many of the affiliates (ie. Florida Gulf, Scotland, & Bay Club properties), you are not required to enroll your week into the club. But I think that your statements and conclusions don't agree. I do agree that OS has in general been kill by the increased fees but this isn't the reason for not enrolling your week into the club. But, the club rules can change, so a deeded week might be the way to go.




I assume you know that purchase price is only part of your cost because you will also have yearly MFs. I haven't price Marriott property but I have never had the impressions that you will be able to purchase for much cheaper than HGVC. If your statement is true and it fills your needs then I would think that Marriott would be the best option. The reason would be that Marriott has many more locations than HGVC and have high quality resorts.



Honestly, I don't understand what is the purpose of this thread. You are making statements about this health of the club which in general I don't agree with. You aren't asking the normal questions about if you will be able to utilize the club for your travel plans. If you believe the statements that you are making above are true, then I defiantly think another club would be right for you.

well, I'm doing my due diligence to see if HGVC is a good long term bet. If it's not then it makes sense to buy at a place where you can stop paying MFs and walk way once the club has no value. Looks like that can be done in Florida.

What I see is HGVC can be a good deal right now but their past behavior and policies are not promising for future long term health of the club. I have provided a detailed analysis of why I think that will be the case and I'm not really seeing any data that suggest the club will have long term health. I understand that people who own get defensive about the things they own. It's predictably irrational as shown by studies by famous behavioral economist, Dan Ariely.

Thanks to @alwysonvac for all the posts with data that show that HGV may be taking the club downhill. She looks like a prolific and knowledgeable poster with a balanced view based on data/facts.
 

brp

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I understand that people who own get defensive about the things they own. It's predictably irrational as shown by studies by famous behavioral economist, Dan Ariely.

Just as it's predictable that those with a less-than-positive view of an organization will cite Stockholm Syndrome about those who find that they are OK with the system. So we're all acting predictably :)

Cheers.
 

Tamaradarann

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Yes, that is exactly what they should be doing. If they failed to do what they could to minimize the resale market value of their product, they would be stupid, fiscally irresponsible and then I would question their motives. All timeshare companies that I know of do this. In fact, among the systems I know, HGVC have the least restrictions on resale purchases. That benefits the owners, but one can view that as fiscally irresponsible. Again, not sure of the point here.

If it's "I want to make it easier for you to buy my product from me and harder to buy it from someone else" I'll again add "yes, and...?"

Cheers.

Do you own stock in HGVC? If you do then I can totally understand and agree with your position since what they are doing is certainly in your best interest.

However, for those that are members and those that are perspective buyers and members of the club WITHOUT STOCK IN HGVC, I view the issues that I point out as not in their best interest.

Futhermore, just because actions make the bottom line look better for the stock holders shouldn't be the only and ultimate consideration in decision making. There are many other considerations that companies need to and should consider. I will leave it like that and not give example rather than make this discussion political.
 

CalGalTraveler

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@win555 It is good to research but you are overthinking this with doomsday hyperbole for both HGVC and MVC. Risk/reward. Your argument is like a financial pundit saying, "Don't invest in the stock market, you will lose money." I will remind you that the stock market is full of potholes and trader's who's best interest is to make a profit over the individual investor.

Pick a property, then analyze it for each system. Then you will have an answer as to whether this is right for your situation.

If you buy and don't like how the trading situation is evolving. Sell or give it away. Or buy where you want to own. Or add points for < $10k and stay at newer properties or quit. IMHO...the risk is not that great. It's not like buying a house - we are talking about only $10k - $20k plus you can still use or rent out the timeshare. Can't vacation in your stocks. Most people I know lost a heck of a lot more than that in March due to Covid. If this risk is too great for your situation then you should not buy timeshares.
 
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win555

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Yes, that is exactly what they should be doing. If they failed to do what they could to minimize the resale market value of their product, they would be stupid, fiscally irresponsible and then I would question their motives. All timeshare companies that I know of do this. In fact, among the systems I know, HGVC have the least restrictions on resale purchases. That benefits the owners, but one can view that as fiscally irresponsible. Again, not sure of the point here.

If it's "I want to make it easier for you to buy my product from me and harder to buy it from someone else" I'll again add "yes, and...?"

Cheers.

Again, the mindset TS developers seem to have is to destroy value rather than create it. Instead of "I want to make it easier for you to buy my product from me and harder to buy it from someone else", it would be better to say "how can I make my offering more compelling and worthwhile that people will buy from me". Both can achieve increased revenue but in one case value is destroyed, in another it is created. I don't have a problem with the latter. Music piracy has gone down because streaming services make piracy not worthwhile. I think almost everyone is better off.
 

brp

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Do you own stock in HGVC? If you do then I can totally understand and agree with your position since what they are doing is certainly in your best interest.

However, for those that are members and those that are perspective buyers and members of the club WITHOUT STOCK IN HGVC, I view the issues that I point out as not in their best interest.

Futhermore, just because actions make the bottom line look better for the stock holders shouldn't be the only and ultimate consideration in decision making. There are many other considerations that companies need to and should consider. I will leave it like that and not give example rather than make this discussion political.

No, I don't own HGVC stock. But I don't need to own the stock to have a view on what a company should be doing. And I fully understand as merely a member, that a program of which I am a member will, and should, do things that are not always in my best interest. That's the reality.

I completely agree that bottom line alone is not sound thinking and things should be done with regard for the members, even if not everything will be things we will like. Then we each get to have our own views on whether particular actions are reasonable or not, and act with our wallets. But thinking that things are either in our best interest or they should not be done is, IMO, naive.

Cheers.
 
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