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I found an LLC with 42 RCI Saratoga Springs listings

paxsarah

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That special agreement with regard to Aulani is overstated at best, if it currently exists at all. I’ve had old OGSs running for Aulani for a couple of years, and the only match I’ve made was a phantom over a year ago. I’m sure other Wyndham owners have the same experience. The only system that has recently been seen to have a special agreement with DVC/RCI is Welk.
 
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Dean

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I think you see it purely as an accounting matter. As long as they match all the DVC deposits, they are fine. I am telling you, part of the reason why people do not deposit MORE in RCI is the lack of good deposits for other resorts. I understand they do not know what they are losing in potential deposits (and exchange fees of course) but it is probably significant
But that's a big picture issue with many other (and more applicable) factors and the situation being discussed has little to do with that big picture. Whether it's II or RCI it's foolish to deposit high end options routinely including DVC. As I've said for 25 years, there are limited resorts where it makes sense exchanging DVC in (then II) or now RCI. At least DVC has the option of doing request first. With II, which tends to have better resorts overall, I'd never deposit my highest end options unless I had a special situation like short notice change of plans. The reality is that even if they put a complete end to this it would make no difference other than on the emotional side.
 

DannyTS

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But that's a big picture issue with many other (and more applicable) factors and the situation being discussed has little to do with that big picture. Whether it's II or RCI it's foolish to deposit high end options routinely including DVC. As I've said for 25 years, there are limited resorts where it makes sense exchanging DVC in (then II) or now RCI. At least DVC has the option of doing request first. With II, which tends to have better resorts overall, I'd never deposit my highest end options unless I had a special situation like short notice change of plans. The reality is that even if they put a complete end to this it would make no difference other than on the emotional side.
RCI lacks good inventory in part because the top resort developers like DVC, HGVC, Wyndham etc have internal exchange systems both for retail and resale owners. Interval on the other hand has Marriott and Vistana that have a large number of owners that are not enrolled in their points systems so a much larger number of owners have to exchange through Interval. That attracts additional deposits from other top resorts.

I still believe though that the bottom feeders that rent out RCI exchanges do not help the inventory and they reinforce the idea that there is not much to be found in RCI so most owners do not even bother to check any longer. The RCI rental business is also more spread out than one may think. The Ebay listings are those that stand out but there are other channels as well. A friend of mine has been using a travel agency from Canada for years and he told me that the confirmations are from RCI. He was very surprised when I told him that it is against the RCI rules and the agency may have problems one day. That travel agency does not advertise these deals, it just offers them to their regular customers as a cheaper alternative to the traditional channels. They have returning customers that go back to them year after year because they are cheaper than the alternative.
 

Dean

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RCI lacks good inventory in part because the top resort developers like DVC, HGVC, Wyndham etc have internal exchange systems both for retail and resale owners. Interval on the other hand has Marriott and Vistana that have a large number of owners that are not enrolled in their points systems so a much larger number of owners have to exchange through Interval. That attracts additional deposits from other top resorts.

I still believe though that the bottom feeders that rent out RCI exchanges do not help the inventory and they reinforce the idea that there is not much to be found in RCI so most owners do not even bother to check any longer. The RCI rental business is also more spread out than one may think. The Ebay listings are those that stand out but there are other channels as well. A friend of mine has been using a travel agency from Canada for years and he told me that the confirmations are from RCI. He was very surprised when I told him that it is against the RCI rules and the agency may have problems one day. That travel agency does not advertise these deals, it just offers them to their regular customers as a cheaper alternative to the traditional channels. They have returning customers that go back to them year after year because they are cheaper than the alternative.
Certainly there are many factors for the availability of exchanges. Internal exchange and exchange company internal priorities are likely the 2 largest factors out side of the inherent value of the underlying week which is (or should be) the largest deterrent to routine deposit IMO. IMO Ebay and rentals of exchanges is not enough of an issue to have any effect on availability but even if someone believes it should make the list, clearly it's a small fish in a large pond. Personally it doesn't matter to me because I believe we should follow the rules though I also believe that companies have the right to waive those rules if they so chose. For example let's say your CC payment got to the company on the day after it was due. They way their internal systems work, you'd almost certainly have a late payment and/or interest due. They will often waive those charges if you question it and sometimes, even if you don't. To hold that companies don't have the right to selectively waive such rules would mean you could never accept any such grace. Tying this in to DVC it would mean that DVC could never waive rules for personal emergencies which they do all the time. If you read the legal documentation for RCI and II, rentals would never be allowed as I interpret those. RCI semi official violates that all the time because they will routinely and formally allow rentals where you only get the exchange fee and any other direct costs like Guest Cert fee. Thus they are violating their own rules routinely as I interpret the information.

So personally I think they should close this down but it is their rule and I don't think it has any real affect on the system as a whole. It does have an affect on RCI members trying to exchange into DVC but even that's likely minor as there are other factors that determine who would get X exchange. And it likely has a minor affect on rental prices for DVC owners. It would not have any affect at all on availability for DVC owners even with your argument that this is a major reason people don't deposit with RCI. I'm sure you can find someone who said it was but realistically that would be a drop in the bucket.
 

Princ3ssgldy

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Maybe the best move here is, as they say, if you can't beat them, join them. If this seller is making money off of his RCI rentals, then why can't we. Either way, with more competition, he loses. And if enough people do it, then perhaps RCI will start paying closer attention.
 

Dean

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Maybe the best move here is, as they say, if you can't beat them, join them. If this seller is making money off of his RCI rentals, then why can't we. Either way, with more competition, he loses. And if enough people do it, then perhaps RCI will start paying closer attention.
2 reasons I can think of. First, honesty/integrity, second it puts your RCI account at risk. I don't believe in situational ethics.
 

DannyTS

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If the rental is legit (reservation made by a DVC owner in their system), can the guest receive a confirmation from Disney right away or only prior to check in?
 

DannyTS

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That special agreement with regard to Aulani is overstated at best, if it currently exists at all. I’ve had old OGSs running for Aulani for a couple of years, and the only match I’ve made was a phantom over a year ago. I’m sure other Wyndham owners have the same experience. The only system that has recently been seen to have a special agreement with DVC/RCI is Welk.
So this question remains unanswered: how is this company able to book Aulani in RCI? Do they have help from an RCI empoyee? They had other Aulani listings in the past so I doubt that it is pure luck.
 

Dean

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If the rental is legit (reservation made by a DVC owner in their system), can the guest receive a confirmation from Disney right away or only prior to check in?
No, DVC will not talk to a third party even if it's in their name. This is their formal policy which creates issues for third party exchange companies like SFX. They will talk to the person who's name is on an RCI exchange even if on a guest certificate.
 

rickandcindy23

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Question to ask on the Aulani, "What is the vacation plan #?" What view is it. If this is a legitimate DVC booking, you should know the view.
 

Lisa P

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The less the DVC owners see in RCI, the less they deposit.... Someone who never had success trading would probably abandon looking for a trade for many years.
Consider that DVC members may "Request First" and have access to The Registry Collection of RCI resorts. This may mitigate such concern.

RCI lacks good inventory in part because the top resort developers like DVC, HGVC, Wyndham etc have internal exchange systems both for retail and resale owners. Interval on the other hand has Marriott and Vistana that have a large number of owners that are not enrolled in their points systems so a much larger number of owners have to exchange through Interval.
Owners with companies like Marriott, Hyatt, and Sheraton are offered internal preference when exchanging into their home system via II. So prime deposited inventory from those companies is less readily available to II members with top tier independent resorts. Both II and RCI have special programs to boost exchanging satisfaction for some brand depositors above the experience of the general member body.

The RCI rental business is also more spread out than one may think. ... there are other channels as well.
Absolutely agree. Besides individuals on a tiny scale and points manager businesses on a moderate scale, the largest timeshare rental businesses of all are offered by the exchange companies themselves. While RCI and II (and other smaller competitors) offer rentals, getaways, bonus weeks, etc. to their exchange members, they also have authorized online outlets for the general public, such as CondoDirect and SkyAuction. There is no way for any of us to know with certainty that prime rental weeks don't ever come from exchange inventory. We also cannot know with certainty whether either of the two major exchange companies have negotiated any kind of business deal with any smaller rental businesses. The travel industry is complex.

I suspect that these small LLCs are simply not making a noticeable dent in RCI's business or significantly impacting RCI's member satisfaction. If they do, RCI would (or will) get involved. Meanwhile, nothing has changed in terms of sightings that cannot be explained by a change in deposit patterns by the resort systems. Prime deposits continue to match to waiting OGS requests before appearing to sit available online, for the most part. Some people are happy with trades, others are not. Not much new, really, IMO.
 
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rickandcindy23

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If this company is using multiple owner accounts to book these (maybe using the idea of helping others as a facade?), they are getting them cheaply through Wyndham points. 105K points + exchange and guest fees is a pretty minimum cost to rent for $1,300.

The Aulani is a conundrum.

I would bet the owner of this ebay name is watching this thread. I think some of the worst offenders at renting are probably frequent visitors of TUG, but are probably infrequent posters.
 

echino

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Just a note, if you are an honest person following all the rules, you should not rent out anything, even your own deeded week. Not just the exchanges. All timeshares I have seen have clauses against use for commercial purposes. Personal use only.
 

cbyrne1174

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If you own a house, but don't want to lose the real estate while you aren't occupying it, renting it out is the obvious decision. Same with time sharing. You own what you intend to use and rent out what you cant occupy. You're just not allowed to have rentals on a commercial level where you make a living off of it.
 

Dean

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Just a note, if you are an honest person following all the rules, you should not rent out anything, even your own deeded week. Not just the exchanges. All timeshares I have seen have clauses against use for commercial purposes. Personal use only.
This is not accurate. In this context commercial doesn't mean limited rentals. DVC specifically and contractually allows rentals as does Marriott.
 

echino

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This is not accurate. In this context commercial doesn't mean limited rentals. DVC specifically and contractually allows rentals as does Marriott.
Look at this, from one of my owned resorts:

commercial.jpg


A similar language exists in most timeshares. Any rental activity done for profit may be considered commercial purpose at resort's discretion. It says "any purposes other than the personal use is expressly prohibited".
 

DannyTS

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Look at this, from one of my owned resorts:

View attachment 14307

A similar language exists in most timeshares. Any rental activity done for profit may be considered commercial purpose at resort's discretion. It says "any purposes other than the personal use is expressly prohibited".
what timeshare is this?
 

TheHolleys87

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If the rental is legit (reservation made by a DVC owner in their system), can the guest receive a confirmation from Disney right away or only prior to check in?
No, DVC will not talk to a third party even if it's in their name. This is their formal policy which creates issues for third party exchange companies like SFX. They will talk to the person who's name is on an RCI exchange even if on a guest certificate.
OTOH if the rental is made directly with the DVC owner, the renter can get an email confirmation showing the renter’s name from the DVC owner as soon as the reservation is placed in the renter’s name. Normally that’s after payment is made, either partial or full payment depending on the owner’s policy. As Dean said, DVC will not talk to the renter.
 

DannyTS

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Vistana makes it clear that the home resort reservations can be rented:

8.2 Network Member Rentals. A Network Member may reserve a Vacation Period at the Network Member’s
Home Resort and rent it
on the Network Member's own account. All renters must comply with the rules and
regulations of the Resort Documents affecting occupancy, and the renting Network Member will be responsible for
the acts or omissions of the Network Member's renters or any other person or persons permitted by the Network
Member to use the Unit. Rental by a Network Member of Units reserved through the Network (other than a Vacation
Period reserved at the Network Member’s Home Resort
) is prohibited.
 

echino

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Vistana makes it clear that the home resort reservations can be rented:

8.2 Network Member Rentals. A Network Member may reserve a Vacation Period at the Network Member’s
Home Resort and rent it
on the Network Member's own account. All renters must comply with the rules and
regulations of the Resort Documents affecting occupancy, and the renting Network Member will be responsible for
the acts or omissions of the Network Member's renters or any other person or persons permitted by the Network
Member to use the Unit. Rental by a Network Member of Units reserved through the Network (other than a Vacation
Period reserved at the Network Member’s Home Resort
) is prohibited.
These are VSN rules. Look at the actual condo rules on the resort level. Most, if not all of these, contain personal use only provisions. Therefore, strictly speaking, you should not rent out your owned weeks for profit.

There is no material difference whether you rent out for profit an II or RCI exchange or your deeded week, from the "rules" point of view. The only practical difference if whether it's enforced in real life.
 

echino

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what timeshare is this?
This is Hyatt. I don't own Disney, but I own quite a few timeshares, and there is a personal use restriction in every one of them. Here are a couple of examples:

Harborside:
Personal use Harborside.png


WKORV:

Personal use WKORV.png
 

Dean

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Look at this, from one of my owned resorts:

View attachment 14307

A similar language exists in most timeshares. Any rental activity done for profit may be considered commercial purpose at resort's discretion. It says "any purposes other than the personal use is expressly prohibited".
This is not related to renting but running a business venture out of the location. The POS talks a lot about renting including that one is competing with Disney. Here's one such passage from the POS 7d.
DVD's approval of a rental by an owner is not required after a reservation is made in the renters own name.
Under XII 12.1 it says
Use of the accommodation and recreation Facilities of the Condominium is limited solely to the person use of Owners, their Lessees, guests, exchangers and invitees ...
It sets forth that rental agreements shall be in writing and that one notifies DVCMC of rentals.

Under Exhibit G/V. Rentals
A club member may make a reservation to use the Vacation Homes for the club members own use, make their use available to family or friends or guests, or rent then solely through the club members own efforts
They do talk about limiting commercial renting definition to be determined later.

Here's a link to the DVC news article on the updated definition of commercial renting. https://dvcnews.com/index.php/dvc-program/policies-a-procedures/302-commercial-renting-limitations-amended-to-pos

I say again that renting is expressly allowed and I would add that commercial is not defined by profit margin.
 

Dean

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OTOH if the rental is made directly with the DVC owner, the renter can get an email confirmation showing the renter’s name from the DVC owner as soon as the reservation is placed in the renter’s name. Normally that’s after payment is made, either partial or full payment depending on the owner’s policy. As Dean said, DVC will not talk to the renter.
Correct though it can be changed or canceled later and this has been an issue where there were rental problems. They can also cross check on the MDE app or website. In many ways the exchange is actually more comforting to the person renting as they will have a reservation in their own name and DVCMC will actually talk to them as an exchanger. At least as long as they don't know that there was a violation along the way and their reservation could be at risk for that very reason.
 

DannyTS

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This is Hyatt. I don't own Disney, but I own quite a few timeshares, and there is a personal use restriction in every one of them. Here are a couple of examples:

Harborside:
View attachment 14309

WKORV:

View attachment 14310
you are not allowed to set up a shop and sell ice-cream at their resorts, this is the meaning. As a matter of fact they specifically mention that the resorts are for the personal use of the owners and their "lessees"

upload_2019-9-27_20-39-24.png
 

echino

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Marriott Canyon Villas
Marriott Grand Chateau
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Marriott Ko Olina
Yes, they talk about commercial activities at the resort, but they also talk about rentals. The resort may at any moment say that a "pattern of rental activity" constitutes use for commercial purposes and not "personal use" if an owner rents out a week for profit more than once, or just at any time at resort's discretion.

While it's vague what may be considered using for "commercial purpose", and they say it's at their discretion, at the same time they are very clear that any use other than personal use, is expressly prohibited. Renting for profit is not personal use.

Of course in practice they allow renting. But the rules say no. They can crack down at any moment. I don't see any difference between renting an owner's deeded week for profit and renting an II or RCI exchange, from the "rules" point of view. The only difference is how it works in real life and whether it's enforced.
 
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