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I Am Angry And Frustrated

wyndhamrental

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I AM ANGRY AND FRUSTRATED any suggestions or legal advice would be greatly appreciated
What Wyndham has done to me is wrong and I am seeking legal counsel. All three of my Wyndham memberships were flagged/closed (explained below) but I was told numerous times that if I would pay to get one of them ‘current’ it would be opened and available to me. However as soon as I paid the total of $9055.19, which was essentially all the money I had, I was blindsided when Wyndham reneged and demanded an additional $33,270 to bring my other two accounts current before this one would be unflagged and available for use. On November 15, 2007 Wyndham told me that these two delinquent accounts could go into ‘deeds in lieu of foreclosure’, as I have done previously with two other retail contracts. At no time was I told that all three accounts had to be current in order to use just this one – and, indeed, this has never been the case before now.

SITUATIONI am homeless and deprived of my livelihood because of Wyndham For the last several years as a Wyndham megaowner (+14,000,000 points – mostly from PICs) I made a livelihood by renting Wyndham timeshares. Last September, (explained below) my three accounts were financially flagged and I HAVE NOT had access to my points since then.

This was a devastating blow to me because not only can I no longer earn a living but also now my home is in foreclosure with a pending possible ‘short sale’ in the next few days. I have been selling all my personal possessions in order to raise money to pay Wyndham to open one of my three accounts and was planning on living in timeshare resorts for the rest of my life. But on July 15 Wyndham closed that possibility to me and on Aug 27, at the age of 62 and with no family; I will become homeless and living out of my car. This is truly sad commentary for a once proud Wyndham owner.

MY FOUR WYNDHAM OWNERSHIPS – 14,551,000 PointsI have three member numbers with Wyndham –
#1 – 10 contracts = 350K pt. UDI and 9 PICs totaling 2,960K = 3,310K pts.
#2 – 12 contracts = 560K pt. UDI and 10 PICs totaling 2,540K = 3,100K pts.
#3 – 16 contracts = 275K pt. UDI and 14 PICs totaling 3,556K = 3,831K pts.
I used to be a partner on a fourth member number but this was lost to me because of Wyndham delays in answering my questions as to how best to dissolve this partnership and still for me to keep half the assets:
#4 – 16 contracts = 500K pt. UDI and 15 PICs totaling 3,810K = 4,310K pts.

BACKGROUND
In January of 2007 I met with four Wyndham personnel* in their Orlando, FL corporate office to discuss the problems with two of my three Wyndham memberships and to request a refund because of all the difficulties I had been experiencing with my accounts and points that were unavailable to me since 2002.
*Deanne Gabel – Senior VP, Owner Services
Jodie Davidson – Director, Owner Care
Shearon Hurst-Roach – Operations Manager, Owner Care
Elaine Havock – Owner Care Team Leader

Although I went to Orlando in January and met three additional times with Shearon Hurst-Roach and Elaine Havock before I returned home to Colorado Springs in June of 2007, no resolutions were forthcoming. During our meetings I explained to Shearon and Elaine that I would not pay the maintenance fees that were due December 31, 2006 until we reached some kind of agreement and that the fees could then be taken out of the refund that Wyndham owed me.

Every month, with no resolution in sight, my accounts were automatically flagged and every month Elaine manually unflagged them. On Sept 7 Elaine was promoted out of Owner Care into Consumer Affairs, taken off my accounts and my accounts were instantly flagged (my last reservation was made on Sept 5).

In mid September Teresa Locascio in Finance (Account Manager, Research Department) was assigned to my accounts and although she offered excellent solutions to my problems, Wyndham corporate would neither accept nor reject her recommendations. Wyndham corporate chose to ‘wait me out’ by not responding and as the months went by my savings dwindled to nothing, my hopes faded and my future became uncertain.

It was obvious in January when I missed my first mortgage payment that my home would go into foreclosure but my requests for a resolution with Wyndham continued to go unanswered. Finally on April 3 when Shearon Hurst-Roach (Operation Manager, Owner Care) again took an active interest in my account was any real ‘progress’ made and two weeks later she told me that everything Teresa Locascio had ‘promised’ me was a lie. But, if I would bring just the one account current that I was going to use, she would work with me.

HOW IT HAPPENED
On July 15, 2008 I made the last payment to bring one of my three Wyndham accounts current – total cost $9055.19. Prior to this my account was open for a few days when I paid one of the ‘original amounts’ Wyndham said I owed. But upon authorizing, yet again, ‘another final’ payment I was immediately informed in the same phone call by Mathew Elquist (Team Leader – Asset Recovery Group) that my account would be flagged until I brought my other two accounts current (and additional +$33,000). At NO TIME was this ‘condition’ ever presented to me. On the contrary there have been several times through the years that one or another of my accounts have been flagged but this action has never impacted my ‘good’ account/s. I also know other Wyndham owners who have one account flagged without putting the others in jeopardy.

Almost three weeks ago I was told by Mathew Elquist and other Wyndham personnel that an explanation of what and how Wyndham were doing to my accounts would be forthcoming shortly. To date I still have received nothing, and no replies to my emails and/or phone calls (which is typical of their passive aggressive responses as you will see if you have the patience/interest to read further). Neither can I find anything in all of my contracts to indicate that this ‘flagging of all accounts because one account is delinquent’ is a customary (let alone legal) procedure.

MY OTHER TWO ACCOUNTS
My two other accounts have had problems with their 24 PIC contracts since their inception (Aug, 2004 and July, 2005) that I have been trying to resolve for several years. Last fall I was told by Wyndham that I could sign a “Deed in Lieu of Foreclosure” but that my accounts had to be 120 days delinquent. On March 6, 2008 Teresa Locascio and I discussed the possibility of me adding a ‘business partner’ on to these two accounts if we could get all the PIC issues finally resolved. Although she offered an excellent solution to these problems on Nov. 15, 2007 and again on Feb. 5, 2008, Wyndham corporate would never commit to it and finally denied my request on the same day they ‘flagged’ my account – July 15. The cost to get these two worthless accounts current would be + $33,000 - and they are still riff with problems.


PENDING LEGAL ACTION
I have posted a “Timeline” attachment on the Wyndham’s Forum (http://forums.atozed.com/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=4647&p=11860#p11860) and although I considered including all my documentation as well, I decided against it as I am going to be engaging the services of an attorney and begin legal action against Wyndham. I am ‘interviewing’ some local real estate attorneys here in Colorado but would like to hear from anyone out there that might have some other suggestions and/or from any attorneys who are members of this website that might be willing to assist.

Thanks – Kendra

BELOW ARE COPIES OF TWO UNANSWERED EMAILS

---------------------------- Original Message -----------------------------
From: kendra@kendrabowers.com
To: greg.benlin@wyndamvo.com; shearon.hurst-roach@wyndhamvo.com; deanne.gabel@wyndhamvo.com; john.hunt@wyndamvo.com; scott.richards@wyndamvo.com
Subject: Account #999-01-3549
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:33:38 -0600
Date: July 16, 2008
To: Greg Bendlin - Executive Vice President/General Counsel
Cc: Deanne Gabel - Sr. VP, Owner Satisfaction
Scott Richards - Director of Owner Care & Resolution
Shearon Hurst-Roach - Operations Manager, Owner Care & Resolution
John Hunt - Manager of Collections
From: Kendra E Bowers, Wyndham VIP Platinum Owner
Re: Unflagging of Acct #999-01-3549

Yesterday, I had a conference call with several staff members of Wyndham in regards to my following account.

Member No. 999-01-3549 - UDI Contract #42-0202236
350,000 UDI points deeded in Durango, CO
10 contracts - 3,310,000 points - 10 contracts – one UDI,
9 PIC Purchased Dec., 2002 - $25,289 (discounted from $47,599) – June 30 use year
9 PIC weeks (5 Margate Sands [508K@]/4 Ocean Reef [105K@]) = 2,960,000 PIC pts

This account is current and paid up-to-date and I am formally requesting it to be
unflagged so that I may have access to it. Below is a summary of my payments:

6/23 (posted 6/25) - $3000 – Wyndham to open account 999-01-3549 (+$2000 to be
taken out on 6/25 with balance of $2111.68 +$65 each month due in 60 days)
reference #MAE0623332 per Matthew Elquist in ARG 800/624-6238. I also owe $1950.19 past due mortgage/loan payments, but account won’t be ‘flagged’ for that.
6/25 (posted 6/26) - $2000 – Wyndham to open account 999-01-3549 (balance of
$2111.68 +$65 each month due in 60 days)
6/30 (posted 7/2) - $400 – Wyndham mortgage ($1550.19 balance due - L06261046)
7/10 - $2100 – Wyndham – balance due for maintenance fees
7/15 - $1555.19 – Wyndham to get current on mortgage/loan

After reviewing my account and all the documentation with your staff, if you should need further information from me, please do not hesitate to contact me via e-mail at Kendra@kendrabowers.com.

Thank you in advance for your immediate attention in this matter.

Kendra E Bowers
Wyndham VIP Platinum Owner

---------------------------- Original Message-----------------------------
From: kendra bowers <kendra@kendrabowers.com>
Subject: Conference Call today
To: "deanne.gabel@wyndhamvo.com" <deanne.gabel@wyndhamvo.com>, scott.richards@wyndhamvo.com, "jodie.davidson@wyndhamvo.com" <jodie.davidson@wyndhamvo.com>, "Shearon Hurst-Roach" <shearon.hurst-roach@wyndhamvo.com>, "Matthew Elquist" <matthew.elquist@wyndhamvo.com>, "Teresa Locascio" <teresa.locascio@wyndhamvo.com>
Cc: "daniel.luke@wyndhamvo.com" <daniel.luke@wyndhamvo.com>, "Barbara O'Donnell" <barbara.o'donnell@wyndhamvo.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 9:47 PM
TO: Deanne Gabel, Scott Richards, Jodie Davidson, Shearon Hurst-Roach, Matthew Elquist, Teresa Locascio
FROM: Kendra E Bowers
DATE: July 15, 2008
RE: CONFERENCE CALL at noon between myself (member *999-01-3549/contract #42-0202236), Shearon Hurst-Roach (Operations Manager, Owner Care and Resolution); Matthew Elquist (ARG Team Leader –Asset Recovery Group) ; Teresa Locascio (Account Manager, Research Department); Daniel Luke (Owner Care Team Lead)


BACKGROUND

DEANNE – You know that I have been trying to get my three/four Wyndham accounts in good order for years. In January of 2007 I met with you, Jodie Davidson, Shearon Hurst-Roach and Elaine Havock in Orlando to discuss my difficulties and a refund I was requesting because of all the difficulties I had been experiencing with my accounts since 2002.

Although I remained in Orlando (except for the month of Feb. and a few other weeks) and finally returned home to Colorado Springs in June of 2007, no resolutions were forthcoming. During our meetings I explained to Elaine Havock that I wasn’t going to pay the maintenance fees until we reached some kind of agreement and that they could be taken out of what Wyndham owed me. In August Elaine was ‘promoted’ and taken off my accounts and they became ‘flagged’ because the maintenance fees were unpaid In mid September Teresa Locascio in Finance was assigned my accounts.

BACKGROUND before our Conference Call today
The first weekend after returning from Orlando I started my weekly weekend Estate Sales to dispose of all my worldly belongings (my house is going into foreclosure on Aug. 27 because of Wyndham and my flagged accounts but I may have a short sale pending – which will net me ZILCH). Well – it took me a month to sell enough to pay the +$9000 to bring my member #999-01-3549 (contract #42-0202236) solvent and ‘unflagged’ as of yesterday afternoon (but ‘flagged’, yet again, as of this afternoon). My account was briefly opened June 26-29 so that I could make 10 RCI reservations with the +268,000 points that I had in my account that were to expire on June 30. Payments were made in the following order:

6/23 (posted 6/25) - $3000 – Wyndham to open account 999-01-3549 (+$2000 to be taken out on 6/25 with balance of $2111.68 +$65 each month due in 60 days) -
reference #MAE0623332 per Matthew Elquist in ARG 800/624-6238. I also owe $1950.19 past due mortgage/loan payments, but account won’t be ‘flagged’ for that.
6/25 (posted 6/26) - $2000 – Wyndham to open account 999-01-3549 (balance of $2111.68 +$65 each month due in 60 days)
6/30 (posted 7/2) - $400 – Wyndham mortgage ($1550.19 balance due - #RNL06261046)
7/10 - $2100 – Wyndham – balance due for maintenance fees
7/15 - $1555.19 – Wyndham to get current on mortgage/loan

CONFERENCE CALL today

1 - It was my understanding that my account would be ‘unflagged’ once the maintenance fees were brought current (and indeed it was ‘unflagged’ from yesterday afternoon until this afternoon) and that I could be in arrears on the mortgage payments. Today I was told differently and I authorized Matthew Elquist to deduct the additional $1555.19 from my Wells Fargo checking account so that there would be no financial problems with this account.
 

Sandy VDH

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I know your issue is 2 accounts flagged the other should not be, however please clarify:

What exactly are all the outstanding fees that Wyndham claims you owe? Are they legitimate fees? If they are legitimate, why are you much in arrears. I know that fees on 14M are huge, but still.

Some clarity please.
 

gmarine

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Sounds to me like you got over your head in debt and are blaming Wyndam for that. I dont see any reason why they would allow you to use one account when you are in debt to them with two other accounts.

It appears that you have been delinquent in payments for several years. That isnt Wyndam's fault. Its unfortunate but you have to accept responsibility for your actions and for your debt.
 

vacationhopeful

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Sorry you will be homeless and have no family. But I have to agree with GMARINE, this is from debt you incurred and unpaid bills. Would this be any diiferent if you owed an electric bill a 100 Main Street and then you move to 300 Brown Road ==> and the electric company added the old balance onto you new address account, despite your claims that they are separate accounts. Not different electric companies, just different accounts. (Not Wyndham elecrtic and Hilton electric, just Wyndham electric).
 

rickandcindy23

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I know more about the situation. This owner has quite a few PIC weeks, and those were what caused her problems. Wyndham didn't accept her PIC weeks after they told her they would accept them. This is the mess she is dealing with, in short. So, as I understand it, they froze her account, so she couldn't pay for the fees. This is Wyndham's fault, she wanted to meet with them and fix it, but they are basically not working with her.

I am so sorry, Kendra. I think if Wyndham said those weeks were in the PIC system, they shouldn't have rejected them after you thought you had them and the points. Wyndham can be very frustrating at times. :(
 

gmarine

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In January you missed your first mortgage payment. Then in July you paid Wyndam $9000? Rather than looking to pay Wyndam for the timeshares, shouldnt you have been paying the mortgage?
 

lprstn

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Wow...wow...wow....

I agree that you may have not gotten your priorities straight. Shelter first, food 2nd, then and only then TS if you can afford it. I agree that Wyndam lied and was wrong, but this is your life and you have some responsibility here with prioritization.

So what to do now...

- Try to get a job
- Temp services are quick
- Fastfood/Walmart
- Caregiver ... ANYTHING

- Contact family/friends/your church for shelter while you get on your feet

- Rent a room - start off slow till you get on your feet.

- You can qualify for public assistance and housing assistance since you are a Senior....(some of these places are really decent depending on where you live)


I've lived in my car, from pillar to post, and scrimp by ...then voila...I made it. Life sometimes sends us a fastball, but we humans are resiliant and what doesn't break us makes us stronger. I pray that things work out for you.
 

Liz Wolf-Spada

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I don't understand all the ins and outs of Wyndham or know what a PIC is, but this sounds like a horrible mess that Wyndham allowed to continue while some of their reps helped you, they left, leaving your account back where you started with even higher amounts of money owed. If you have everything written down and documented, you could try consulting for a free consultation with a lawyer and see if there is any legal recourse. Can you sell your weeks to pay off the debts owed to Wyndham or to keep you out of foreclosure ?(which seems really bottomline critical)
Liz
 

Don

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I don't understand how you could (supposedly, as per Wyndham) bring in so many PIC's. We were told that you had to purchase 77K points every year usage (154K every other year) to bring in one PIC. That means, you should have purchased a total of 9.55 M points instead of the 1.69 M that you actually did. That's an average of 31.2K percontract and 32.6 K PIC. It's possible that is where the trouble lies.
If it is in your contracts to bring in that many PIC's you should have some legal grounds.
You still have control of the weeks that you used for those PIC points. You can still rent them out individually. Just because they are added into the point total for Wyndham doesn't mean you HAVE to give them to Wyndham.
 

rickandcindy23

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I don't understand how you could (supposedly, as per Wyndham) bring in so many PIC's. We were told that you had to purchase 77K points every year usage (154K every other year) to bring in one PIC. That means, you should have purchased a total of 9.55 M points instead of the 1.69 M that you actually did. That's an average of 31.2K percontract and 32.6 K PIC. It's possible that is where the trouble lies.
If it is in your contracts to bring in that many PIC's you should have some legal grounds.
You still have control of the weeks that you used for those PIC points. You can still rent them out individually. Just because they are added into the point total for Wyndham doesn't mean you HAVE to give them to Wyndham.

Kendra has owned her points for a long time, and four years ago, when we attended our first presentation, Wyndham allowed as many PIC weeks as you wanted to add. We considered it back then, but we decided not to purchase because we had no knowledge about Fairfield, and this was before TUG.

So she purchased from Wyndham several times, always adding PIC weeks to each purchase. She has many PICs and that is the problem, because Wyndham basically decided not to accept some of them. I think Kendra could explain it better.
 

Sandy VDH

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Wyndham has changed the rules on PICs. I had been sitting on the fence for a long time about PICing some of my other timeshare properties, and when I heard about the change I finally did PIC some to basically double my point position.

I have over 1 Million points, but clearly not even close to 14 Million.

I do want to understand where all of the outstanding $$$ are from, either MFs, Financing of purchases, taxes, or other charges pertaining to PIC contracts.

Some of these expenses are likely legitimate charges owned, however, Kendra has not elaborated.

I do see Kendra point about flagging one account should not close another.
 

jercal10

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No compassion here. Anyone who sucks up the prime weeks to try to make money damn well better pay their MF's.

Don't believe the renting of TS was intended to be anyone's primary occupation.
 

BocaBum99

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No compassion here. Anyone who sucks up the prime weeks to try to make money damn well better pay their MF's.

Don't believe the renting of TS was intended to be anyone's primary occupation.

I think you have this wrong. If Kendra is renting units, it is most likely inventory 60-days or less from check in. That's because she gets the Platinum VIP discount for those points. Prime weeks are not taken out of usage and last minute inventory is used. That actually helps all owners because maitenance fees get paid on those points. If all rentals stopped, there would be a lot more people defaulting on their ownerships and all owners would have to pay higher fees as a result.
 

vacationhopeful

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The big things in being able to get the most $$$ renting a timeshare are:
~name recognition
~season/holiday/location
~desirable unit size
~large inventory
~no guest certificate fees or reservation fees or housekeeping fees

Wyndham is the name recognition
Taking fixed weeks and converting them to Prime weeks, very cheaply.
Altering a unit size (VIP for free upgrades at 60 days);1/2 points cost too
Lots of places -and cancelling at 16 days, no penalty
Minimize the cost of extras

So IMHO all Wyndham owners (and the Wyndham sales department) have been subsizing her business for years in their maintenance fees (if the VIP program is really paid by the sales department) at resorts other owners had trouble reserving at. PICs are not Wyndham properties; PICs were a marketing scheme to get owners of other resorts to buy and use the Wyndham points system early on. RCI has the PFD program, but at least these are RCI traded resorts nor can a RCI Points vacation be rented. Were the "rejected" PIC weeks from resorts that had NOT kept there standards up? Were her maintenance fees up to date at these resorts? Did she owe money to Wyndham (is it $89 each week per year to PIC each unit?).

She own UDI points at the resorts with the 13 month advantage; she had various ADV Reservations at Associate and Reciprocal resort (VIP benefit); she could reserve a specific unit/view(VIP benefit). Then, at the end of the year, unused points could be converted to maintenance dollars (another VIP benefit). Can't rent it, cancel; then pay maintenance fees; no risk, all to her benefit.

Then Wyndham starts to TWEAK the VIP program and assigns smart (and not so smart) people to unravel accounting issues. Back charging occurs, maybe some bounced checks, multiple hands making adjustment, chaos and drama abounds ... on Wyndham's part.


But there is the "owner" of this very large enterprise.

If anyone can manage to keep over 14,551,000 million points with 48 PICs and 54 contracts scattered over 4 different member numbers properly accounted for, that is a skilled bookkeeper.
Add to it, the multiple actual rentals which come full cycle with response to inquiry, contract generation, collection of funds, dispersal of guest info and ALL the handholding and alterations which a vacation tenant can generate would add another layer of skill.
Then add the time and perserverance it takes to obtain and terminate unused rental space on the techically swift Wyndham Online Reservation site (or thru the VIP Phone lines), would again a high skill function (and very time consuming) and patience beyond the average person.
Still there is the skill, time, effort, and $$$$ to advertise for a pool of renters, track deposits, and skill to decide who is a tirekicker and who is a cash buyer of my vacation time services.

Let alone, the physical time limitations and technical skills that one person person has ... one would figure there are assistants who were given access to many of these valuable vacations, passwords and bank accounts who had to be paid $$$$ and who could have personally benefitted beyond a paycheck. And perhaps a CPA was employed who paid the correct government agencies all those nitpicking fees and taxes?

Just remember, Al Capone (the gangster), was done in by the IRS, not the FBI - and IMHO, this was a profit making enterprise to pay for a residence (personal, food, car, vacations) and not pay for the debt (business deduction allowed).

Just food for thought, here on TUGs.

PS Tax (and fines) liens can NOT be wiped out by bankrupties.
 

e.bram

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Anybody could by ordering merchandise (TS weeks)not paying for, selling them, kake money. But for how long. OP is angry at Wyndham for wanting to get paid?????
 

jdb0822

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I think OP needs to stop buying timeshare after timeshare from the developer. Sounds like mortgage payments and MF's were long overdue.
 

lprstn

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"PIC"

The "Pic" program is when Wyndam allows a new owner who purchased via developer prices to "PIC" in their TS from another resort.

For example, I own at "Sheraton Vistana", Wyndam allows me to give them my week from the Vistana, I pay $25 and get 154,000pts within Wyndam to use. I can re-bank those points with RCI in 28K, 70K, 105K, 154K increments or I can use them strictly within Wyndam to booking at Wyndam resorts.

Wyndam recently disallowed owners with over "2" PIC resort weeks (I believe that's what the sales person told me) from being "VIP" which allows the owner to get priority booking at multiple locations, points discounts for up to 50% on reservations, and free Guest Certificates.
 

vacationhopeful

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BocaBum99 - using her home resort reservation period would get her the best and highest price units for the rental market. This would be VERY true of BEST times at the beginning of the use year; failure to obtain premium $$$ to cover the full freight and more, would just be more later in the year 60 day out reservations. The other VIP early reservation features just has MORE primetime being taken with her reservations.

As for maintentance fees being NOT paid - unless she books 60 days out - I disagree. Maintenance fees, while collected by Wyndham, belong to the UDI and fixed weeks at each HOA or POA. The deeded owners pay for the full frieght of operating these resorts. If I stop paying my pittance of direct blood from my bank account to Wyndham, I would not be taking vacations from Jan07 to Sep07. As for unused inventory, Resort Specials are open to all owners on a first come, first served ... both to get people to book a vacation and to not be unhappy they PAID their maintenance fees and got nothing. Also, it keeps people sitting at the Owners' Update tables. VIP benefits are "alledgely" paid for by the sales department. Rentals of reserved UDI units is a right of property ownership; rentals of exchanges through RCI (weeks and points) and II is not allowed as these are contracts of personal use such as the owner may rent a house, but the tenant is NOT allowed to sublet the house to another tenant ... one is a right to use ones own property, while the other contract to renting for personal and use does not extend all rights of ownership.

IMHO, points not used for year PRIME reservations or returned as cancelled reservations points would be the only ones used for the 60 day reservations. Basicly, the beginning of the year is NOT high season/high demand as school is in session. So grab the Daytona Weeks, the President Birthday weeks, all the EASTER weeks, Mardi Gras week, the San Antonio festival thing and any other regional festival thing (Nashville, Mrytle Beach Bike week), all other Feb beach weeks-Ocean Palms, Royal Vista, Santa Barbara-heavy on the 1bdr, and then every summer week from 6/15 to 8/15, some Thanksgiving weeks, some Xmas weeks and borrow points to book NYE week in Orlando or South Florida.

The 60 day discount is reduced by the labor and advertising costs to rent at the 60-16 day mark. Bigger profits by looking every day for the free unit upgrade and then the call to Wyndham, are labor intense, too. Me doing that for my sister, yes. Me doing it for 100 outstanding, open reservations each day - tedious.

How many Wyndham points or reservations could you manage by yourself as a business to support yourself? Year in, year out. Using $5 maintenance fees per thousand points as a VERY rough number (forgetting PIC, FSP,etc) the MF on 14,551,000 point is $72,755 per year or $6063/monthly. 5 rentals at $1200 per week would be required to just breakeven on cheap MF. If each of those reservations cost her 140,000 pts, she would burn thru 8,400,000 (60 reservations) leaving her with 6,151,000 points use. With a 50% discount, there would be 88 complete reservations required to burn thru the balance of points ==> $1200 x 88=$105,600 profit. If you get $300 more for PRIME (no discount) reservations, up $18,000. Use only 140,000 pts per prime reservation, 6 more reservations == $1500 x 6 =$9000.

Now to get MAX above profit: $132,600 profit on 154 completed transactions.

Use your 50% points reservations for all and not getting $1500 per week for PRIME, only the $1200. 208 reservations at 70,000 =$249,000 - 72,755= $176,845 profit. If I only get $1000 for each week, =$208,000 - 72,755=$135,245 profit.

The numbers: 35% more complete reservations are needed to get a larger profit of $44,245. Or get lesser rent ($1000 per week), more profit is only $2645 for 54 more complete reservations. Your risk is higher due to the very short turn requirement of 45 days (I got the reservation in hand, I HAVE to find and collect from a tenant). Using prime weeks, scattered throughout the year for known vacation demand, has a turnover of over 375 days - a forecast of repeat renters and little lost of inventory. Week not rented for $1500, take same number of points and get 2 rentals at $900 each ==> paying me slightly more money, to pay me for more ads, costs, or time.

IMHO, taking the prime weeks away from other Wyndham owners has me working less, than scratching all year in the dirt for leftovers or cancellations. I rather seek out the bigger bucks for 375 days, than get sick with worry, about renting other peoples left overs everyday.


ADDING A WARNING
: I have used very LOW numbers for maintenance fees for this discussion. I did NOT include a $.52 per 1,000 pts FSP and for VIP benefits, you are paying FULL DEVELOPER PRICING. Your lost opportunity costs or interest on your home equity loan will have you losing money every year. Any and all discreasionary spending will be less this year and next as the economy adjusts to VERY high energy prices. Maintenance fees will rise much above forecast as energy costs rise higher.

Finding a rentor is like asking your mother to pay to go to your timeshare while you want her to babysit free for you. It costs money to advertise, to collect your money (PayPal is not cheap, esp if your buyer pays with a credit card; PayPal will back sharge your bank account if they are back charged by the cc company), for damages a rentor might do at your resort, etc.

I have looked at renting some of my timeshares ... not a profit making enterprise and not one covering the maintenance fees. And I am a fulltime property manager in my job - hence, why I looked at the OP's problem, and am NOT surprised that she has lost her "SHIRT". I deal with renters, I collect money, I get the idiot phone calls ... Just because they are renting a vacation property, just makes them in the "I want the best vacation for my (kids, parents, price, dying dog, etc)" usually ending with "I will tell all my friends what a jerk you are" because I didn't refund all their $$$ for "whatever reason". Don't worry, if they charged their credit card to pay you, they will most likely get their money back.

So the OP is whining about how the rules changed and she has been "cleaned out" thru the big companies' lies and waiting her out by not responding to her suggestions. That is like the 61 yo guy who owes me big bucks and the sheriff has thrown him out of the rental house he has lived in to 10 years, demanding a walk thru with me. Oh, did I mention he chased me around 3 loops of the front yard, screaming at top voice, while 2 real armed cops and 2 sheriffs officers watched and I was screaming KEEP HIM OFF ME during the lockout. 23 phone calls to my business number. Oh, yeah, he is a real minister and I had to fax forms to the electric company since he appears to have "fixed" the meter problem when the electric made it not work right. (He should be seeing more police soon).

SO PERSONALLY, buy or reserve the timeshares you want use yourself. Overbuying T/S is no different than buying too many shoes OR too big of a house OR buying $500 of lotteries tickets every week. Renting is a VERY RISKY business and not financially sound. Just MHO.
 
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LauraG

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I think you have this wrong. If Kendra is renting units, it is most likely inventory 60-days or less from check in. That's because she gets the Platinum VIP discount for those points. Prime weeks are not taken out of usage and last minute inventory is used. That actually helps all owners because maitenance fees get paid on those points. If all rentals stopped, there would be a lot more people defaulting on their ownerships and all owners would have to pay higher fees as a result.

Well said BocaBum.

Kendra - it's just terrible that you've had so many problems. I know how difficult it can be to communicate with Wyndham - each person you talk to there (whether in owner relations, corporate, financial services, etc.) has a different idea of what Wyndham's policies are. I hope you're able to get through to that ONE person who actually knows what they're talking about and who can help you get this straightened out. God bless you!
 
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Sandy VDH

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It is a lot of work to get the most out of my 1 Million, trying to utilize the the 60 day discount is easy online, but the free upgrade should there be units is really hard work. I can't image how much work it would be for 14 M and from a rental business volume and churn. Any by Churn, I mean lookers and not renters.
 

sandkastle4966

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Comment on Bocabum's post regarding PICs being used....

"That actually helps all owners because maitenance fees get paid on those points"

My understanding of PIC is that you pay the MF is the home resort, and a small fee to Wyn/FF. The PIC resorts MFs are less than Wyn/FF MFs which is why there are a handful of folks with very, very large portfolios of PICs. they pass less MF, and can then "book for less" and then they rent them out.

there is no Maintenance fees actually being paid on "those points".

Someone please correct me if I am wrong on this.....
 

BocaBum99

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BocaBum99 - using her home resort reservation period would get her the best and highest price units for the rental market. This would be VERY true of BEST times at the beginning of the use year; failure to obtain premium $$$ to cover the full freight and more, would just be more later in the year 60 day out reservations. The other VIP early reservation features just has MORE primetime being taken with her reservations.

As for maintentance fees being NOT paid - unless she books 60 days out - I disagree. Maintenance fees, while collected by Wyndham, belong to the UDI and fixed weeks at each HOA or POA. The deeded owners pay for the full frieght of operating these resorts. If I stop paying my pittance of direct blood from my bank account to Wyndham, I would not be taking vacations from Jan07 to Sep07. As for unused inventory, Resort Specials are open to all owners on a first come, first served ... both to get people to book a vacation and to not be unhappy they PAID their maintenance fees and got nothing. Also, it keeps people sitting at the Owners' Update tables. VIP benefits are "alledgely" paid for by the sales department. Rentals of reserved UDI units is a right of property ownership; rentals of exchanges through RCI (weeks and points) and II is not allowed as these are contracts of personal use such as the owner may rent a house, but the tenant is NOT allowed to sublet the house to another tenant ... one is a right to use ones own property, while the other contract to renting for personal and use does not extend all rights of ownership.

IMHO, points not used for year PRIME reservations or returned as cancelled reservations points would be the only ones used for the 60 day reservations. Basicly, the beginning of the year is NOT high season/high demand as school is in session. So grab the Daytona Weeks, the President Birthday weeks, all the EASTER weeks, Mardi Gras week, the San Antonio festival thing and any other regional festival thing (Nashville, Mrytle Beach Bike week), all other Feb beach weeks-Ocean Palms, Royal Vista, Santa Barbara-heavy on the 1bdr, and then every summer week from 6/15 to 8/15, some Thanksgiving weeks, some Xmas weeks and borrow points to book NYE week in Orlando or South Florida.

The 60 day discount is reduced by the labor and advertising costs to rent at the 60-16 day mark. Bigger profits by looking every day for the free unit upgrade and then the call to Wyndham, are labor intense, too. Me doing that for my sister, yes. Me doing it for 100 outstanding, open reservations each day - tedious.

How many Wyndham points or reservations could you manage by yourself as a business to support yourself? Year in, year out. Using $5 maintenance fees per thousand points as a VERY rough number (forgetting PIC, FSP,etc) the MF on 14,551,000 point is $72,755 per year or $6063/monthly. 5 rentals at $1200 per week would be required to just breakeven on cheap MF. If each of those reservations cost her 140,000 pts, she would burn thru 8,400,000 (60 reservations) leaving her with 6,151,000 points use. With a 50% discount, there would be 88 complete reservations required to burn thru the balance of points ==> $1200 x 88=$105,600 profit. If you get $300 more for PRIME (no discount) reservations, up $18,000. Use only 140,000 pts per prime reservation, 6 more reservations == $1500 x 6 =$9000.

Now to get MAX above profit: $132,600 profit on 154 completed transactions.

Use your 50% points reservations for all and not getting $1500 per week for PRIME, only the $1200. 208 reservations at 70,000 =$249,000 - 72,755= $176,845 profit. If I only get $1000 for each week, =$208,000 - 72,755=$135,245 profit.

The numbers: 35% more complete reservations are needed to get a larger profit of $44,245. Or get lesser rent ($1000 per week), more profit is only $2645 for 54 more complete reservations. Your risk is higher due to the very short turn requirement of 45 days (I got the reservation in hand, I HAVE to find and collect from a tenant). Using prime weeks, scattered throughout the year for known vacation demand, has a turnover of over 375 days - a forecast of repeat renters and little lost of inventory. Week not rented for $1500, take same number of points and get 2 rentals at $900 each ==> paying me slightly more money, to pay me for more ads, costs, or time.

IMHO, taking the prime weeks away from other Wyndham owners has me working less, than scratching all year in the dirt for leftovers or cancellations. I rather seek out the bigger bucks for 375 days, than get sick with worry, about renting other peoples left overs everyday.


ADDING A WARNING
: I have used very LOW numbers for maintenance fees for this discussion. I did NOT include a $.52 per 1,000 pts FSP and for VIP benefits, you are paying FULL DEVELOPER PRICING. Your lost opportunity costs or interest on your home equity loan will have you losing money every year. Any and all discreasionary spending will be less this year and next as the economy adjusts to VERY high energy prices. Maintenance fees will rise much above forecast as energy costs rise higher.

Finding a rentor is like asking your mother to pay to go to your timeshare while you want her to babysit free for you. It costs money to advertise, to collect your money (PayPal is not cheap, esp if your buyer pays with a credit card; PayPal will back sharge your bank account if they are back charged by the cc company), for damages a rentor might do at your resort, etc.

I have looked at renting some of my timeshares ... not a profit making enterprise and not one covering the maintenance fees. And I am a fulltime property manager in my job - hence, why I looked at the OP's problem, and am NOT surprised that she has lost her "SHIRT". I deal with renters, I collect money, I get the idiot phone calls ... Just because they are renting a vacation property, just makes them in the "I want the best vacation for my (kids, parents, price, dying dog, etc)" usually ending with "I will tell all my friends what a jerk you are" because I didn't refund all their $$$ for "whatever reason". Don't worry, if they charged their credit card to pay you, they will most likely get their money back.

So the OP is whining about how the rules changed and she has been "cleaned out" thru the big companies' lies and waiting her out by not responding to her suggestions. That is like the 61 yo guy who owes me big bucks and the sheriff has thrown him out of the rental house he has lived in to 10 years, demanding a walk thru with me. Oh, did I mention he chased me around 3 loops of the front yard, screaming at top voice, while 2 real armed cops and 2 sheriffs officers watched and I was screaming KEEP HIM OFF ME during the lockout. 23 phone calls to my business number. Oh, yeah, he is a real minister and I had to fax forms to the electric company since he appears to have "fixed" the meter problem when the electric made it not work right. (He should be seeing more police soon).

SO PERSONALLY, buy or reserve the timeshares you want use yourself. Overbuying T/S is no different than buying too many shoes OR too big of a house OR buying $500 of lotteries tickets every week. Renting is a VERY RISKY business and not financially sound. Just MHO.

Sorry Linda, your theory just isn't based on the reality of the situation. Go to eBay and see all of the inventory that is put up for auction less than 60-days from check in.

In addition, if an owner books their points for a unit and then rents it, it is their right to do so. They own it. It's part of their basic property rights.

I think once you analyze the situation more closely you will see that your thoughts on this topic are quite a bit off.

The best value for renting Wyndham resorts is using a 50% Platinum VIP discount and occasional unit upgrade option for a 3-4 night rental not including a weekend. Such a renter can clear around $8-10 per 1000 points in PROFIT above maintenance fees.

I know this because I analyzed a bunch of megarenters by calculating their profit on such rentals relative to the cost of the points.

It is possible for a very small number of resorts to do better such as Race Week at Ocean Walk, but there are 2 problems with such a strategy. 1) getting inventory is quite difficult due to the competition for such weeks. 2) You must own at Ocean Walk to get the ARP to book weeks. 3) You need to tie up inventory for a year before you can turn it. You will run out of capital before owning enough weeks to make a living on it.

When you use the megarenter strategy for short stays, you can turn inventory continually. Especially when you can rent points from Wyndham at $5/1000 points for such reservations.

Why don't you ask some megarenters what they do. I'll think you'll see that my analysis is correct.
 

rickandcindy23

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Comment on Bocabum's post regarding PICs being used....

"That actually helps all owners because maitenance fees get paid on those points"

My understanding of PIC is that you pay the MF is the home resort, and a small fee to Wyn/FF. The PIC resorts MFs are less than Wyn/FF MFs which is why there are a handful of folks with very, very large portfolios of PICs. they pass less MF, and can then "book for less" and then they rent them out.

there is no Maintenance fees actually being paid on "those points".

Someone please correct me if I am wrong on this.....

You pay fees to deposit those weeks into the points system. You also pay fees when you choose NOT to deposit the weeks in the system.

I don't know how the relationship to RCI and Fairfield works, but it seems RCI gets the deposit, and compensates Wyndham for it. There is money exchanging hands somewhere in the system. I am sure Fairfield isn't giving points away to be nice. :)
 
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