How many of the Wyndham Resorts are not managed by Wyndham and what impact does that have on owners?

[schreff]

I have noticed that quite a few resorts have opted out of Wyndham management. At these resorts, those who are VIPs do not get VIP benefits. Hopefully, this is not a trend because IMHO our VIP benefits have significantly eroded over the years.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I have noticed that quite a few resorts have opted out of Wyndham management. At these resorts, those who are VIPs do not get VIP benefits. Hopefully, this is not a trend because IMHO our VIP benefits have significantly eroded over the years.

If the resorts weren't built by Wyndham, or aren't owned in entirety by Wyndham, then there are limits on accommodations and limits on what Wyndham can do as they are essentially slave to whomever actually owns and manages the resort - and to the previous timeshare entities and the founding trust documents of the original timeshare system. Of course there are affiliation contracts that outline the relationship between Wyndham and the resort owner/manager that specify in detail what Wyndham can and cannot do with inventory. Most of the resorts where Wyndham doesn't manage the resort - have been that way since the outset of the resort relationship itself (perhaps with minor changes over time). Typically if a resort association no longer wants a relationship with Wyndham - there' s a disaffiliation process that is followed - which is typically also covered in the contracts (exit clauses). This is what happened at the Chicago resort when the building was sold to another owner and the lease with Wyndham was terminated. When the Chicago resort was sold - all inventory in the system was blocked out beyond the lease termination date for example - and existing future reservations were set in stone and honored up to a certain future point in time.

 

[paxsarah]

For the not managed by Wyndham resorts, the only VIP benefits not recognized are what used to be separated out as "onsite" benefits.* At this point, those onsite benefits are few and far between - early check-in when available, VIP-only check-in line. You could still get VIP discounts and upgrades if you book within the appropriate window, and free/additional housekeeping credits depending on your grandfathered status.
* I don't know if others have noticed, but Wyndham used to publish multiple VIP benefit charts - they've now condensed what used to be "vacation planning" and "during your stay" benefits into one chart, because there are almost no onsite benefits.

 

[chapjim]

If the resorts weren't built by Wyndham, or aren't owned in entirety by Wyndham, then there are limits on accommodations and limits on what Wyndham can do as they are essentially slave to whomever actually owns and manages the resort - and to the previous timeshare entities and the founding trust documents of the original timeshare system. Of course there are affiliation contracts that outline the relationship between Wyndham and the resort owner/manager that specify in detail what Wyndham can and cannot do with inventory. Most of the resorts where Wyndham doesn't manage the resort - have been that way since the outset of the resort relationship itself (perhaps with minor changes over time). Typically if a resort association no longer wants a relationship with Wyndham - there' s a disaffiliation process that is followed - which is typically also covered in the contracts (exit clauses). This is what happened at the Chicago resort when the building was sold to another owner and the lease with Wyndham was terminated. When the Chicago resort was sold - all inventory in the system was blocked out beyond the lease termination date for example - and existing future reservations were set in stone and honored up to a certain future point in time.

I find it interesting that SeaWatch in Myrtle Beach has nothing indicating there might be limitations on accommodations. True, Wyndham manages the resort but only owns 38% of the facility. Nor have we seen the inventory management problems cited here, at least not that I can recall.

SeaWatch Details:
Total # of Units: 589
Club Wyndham Units: 228
Total Club Wyndham Villas: 120

Also, Wyndham seems to have some agreements with the managers of other sections of the resorts. Example: Several years ago, we had a reservation at Lake Lure but ended up in a section managed by VRI (Fox Run?). It was okay but not where we thought we should have been.

 

[pedro47]

Can someone named the resorts that are not managed by Wyndham?

 

[troy12n]

I'm questioning the OP's entire premise here...

What (be specific) resorts have we lost VIP privilages at? I'm not aware of any

Which (be specific) resorts have "opted out of Wyndham management"? Again, i'm not aware of any

There are a handful of resorts which are affiliate resorts, which we never had VIP privilages at to begin with, and there are a small number of resorts we lost access to (Chicago, Boston, Galvesston), but those were glorified hotels anyway and in the case of Chicago, they didn't own it to begin with, and the owners of the hotel went a different route.

Be specific here, I think the OP is blowing smoke and this is a non-issue. Because even at resorts where Wyndham doesn't own all the units, when booking the non-wyndham units inside the resort (sometimes you don't even know it's not a non-wyndham unit...) from our Club Wyndham website (when it works...) our VIP privilages DO attach. I can think of several including Star Island, Sapphire Valley, Lake Lure, Shawnee Village, Lake Lure, SeaWatch. Likely others. I think Pagosa some of the units we could end up in aren't managed by Wyndham or maybe just not owned by

Other than Angel Fire, and the ones in Mexico, which I dont think was ever Wyndham managed, there aren't THAT many actual resorts that are associate resorts this would even come into play at...

 

[goaliedave]

It's normal, every chain has a variety of affiliate agreements and management agreements.

 

[schreff]

Can someone named the resorts that are not managed by Wyndham?

It appears not. Can't seem to get a straight answer can we???? I also see a bias toward Wyndham but no actual facts that are very important to we, the owners.

I know and own at three Wyndham resorts that were managed by Wyndham and now are on the brink of disassociating, dissolving and now doomed thus creating losses for those who own Wyndham points there. One is Fairfield Harbour for which we owners are unable to book there and cannot get answers to why. Two, is Fairfield Plantation Tara III which had to close the door completely and this resulted in us losing 259,000 points ( two deeds purchased from Fairfield then converted to Wyndham points), our Founder status dropped to Platinum without Wyndham notifying use and the loss of over $ 30,000. in original value not to mention present value; finally, Kauai Beach Villas which is looking at an over $ 7000.00 special assessment for structural problems which were said to have went undiscovered for over 50 years. I should note Wyndham is now managing this property again after an election in which some say was not valid. After speaking to long time HOA Board members, they all blame Wyndham management for a major part of their problems. They also cited various conflicts of interest that Wyndham had with 3rd party contractors and also elections, etc. This is why finding out about Wyndham resort management versus 3rd party management is so important to all Wyndham owners.

 

[schreff]

If the resorts weren't built by Wyndham, or aren't owned in entirety by Wyndham, then there are limits on accommodations and limits on what Wyndham can do as they are essentially slave to whomever actually owns and manages the resort - and to the previous timeshare entities and the founding trust documents of the original timeshare system. Of course there are affiliation contracts that outline the relationship between Wyndham and the resort owner/manager that specify in detail what Wyndham can and cannot do with inventory. Most of the resorts where Wyndham doesn't manage the resort - have been that way since the outset of the resort relationship itself (perhaps with minor changes over time). Typically if a resort association no longer wants a relationship with Wyndham - there' s a disaffiliation process that is followed - which is typically also covered in the contracts (exit clauses). This is what happened at the Chicago resort when the building was sold to another owner and the lease with Wyndham was terminated. When the Chicago resort was sold - all inventory in the system was blocked out beyond the lease termination date for example - and existing future reservations were set in stone and honored up to a certain future point in time.

What happens if you bought from Wyndham points and/or a fixed week at a now disaffiliated Wyndham resort? What if you bought an old fixed week from Fairfield, then paid to convert it to points to reach a higher VIP level and then this occurs?

 

[bnoble]

For converted weeks, the conversion contract discusses the various termination options. In my most recent converted week, Paragraph 9(d) states that the conversion terminates if any of the following happen:

• The termination of the [entire] Club Wyndham Plus program,
• The termination of the vacation ownership plan under which the resort was organized,
• The termination of any over-arching condominium under which the resort operates,
• If the Trustee (i.e. Wyndham) determines the resort is "no longer suitable for use in [Wyndham]."

I was the person who converted that week, and I signed the document myself after reading it in its entirety. So, I knew these were possible. I also bought a week that was converted by someone else, but they gave me a copy of the conversion contract so that I knew what I was buying. That one had similar language, though probably not in exactly the same place or with exactly the same wording.

On termination (for any reason), my ownership would revert back to owning the fixed/floating week that was surrendered to the Trust as part of the conversion agreement, and the points associated with that conversion will "have no further use or value." (Paragraph 9(e)). I don't own any UDI, so I don't know what that contract says, but I suspect there are similar terms.

One thing to note: The agreement is not automatically terminated simply because the Board selects somoeone other than Wyndham as the management company. When KBV switched to Grand Pacific, converted weeks remained converted, and Wyndham owners there could continue to use their points, while Wyndham owners elsewhere could still book converted inventory.

 

[Jan M.]

Aren't being an affiliate resort and a resort not managed by Wyndham two different things?

 

[Sandi Bo]

A fun one is Ocean Walk. My understanding is Wyndham came on the scene after the south tower was built, with an agreement to build the north tower and manage the whole place. At that time the condos in the south tower were privately owned. Wyndham started buying them up (and built the north tower). I don't know the percentages (someone here may likely weigh in or correct me). Wyndham made some of the south tower original owners mad and they no longer wanted them to manage it. The fight between the north and south has gone on for years. The north tower is managed by Wyndham, the south by a different HOA. They split responsibilities and it can make things interesting. Ask at the game desk (north tower) for towels in the workout room (south tower) and they'll tell you it's not their responsibility, it's the other tower. Can make things interesting to hunt down (like security is a south tower thing). The wrist bands, last I knew, work for most but all things (because the south tower doesn't want to participate is my understanding. You can stay in a Wyndham owned south tower condo (because at one time Wyndham was trying to buy up those) and have to have special key card to get into the south tower garage. While your wrist band and room key gets you into the north tower parking garage. You need a special card to get into the (south tower managed) fitness room - wrist bands don't work.

I've lost track of how many times they've remodeled the main entrance. There used to be concierge as you walked in and they they used to solicit you there for the timeshare presentations. All that got moved, a couple times. Last I heard the concierge is on the second floor of the south tower where sales presentations are conduction (but it wouldn't surprise me if that's no longer true). The open area on the south side was converted to a bunch of kiosks and they were using that are for checkins. That's gone. Now you register on the north side (for both the north and south side - but different desks). For presentations they were signing you up in the open are of the north tower. Now it's down the hall a bit further. There used to be a nice VIP checkin desk on the north side, that's long gone. No special treatment now for VIPs at checkin. I would call that a lost benefit. VIP checkin benefits vary by resort.

Being an owner - north/south fighting was concerning at first. I worried what it might do overall to the operation of the resort and what it might do to it's abilty to survive / maintenance fees, etc. But it seems to run just fine. I'm sure the fighting add overhead, but for the most part, seems to do okay. It's still there

Star Island is interesting, too. Some Wyndham, some not. I believe the Wyndham ones are nicer and you might end up in a non-Wyndham one (and likely not be so happy). I'm not familiar with which are and which aren't.

Although it is noted on the website under resort information, seems a little misleading? Not sure that provides the information OP is looking for?

Bonnet Creek:

Ocean Walk:

Star Island:

 

[schreff]

I'm questioning the OP's entire premise here...

What (be specific) resorts have we lost VIP privilages at? I'm not aware of any

Which (be specific) resorts have "opted out of Wyndham management"? Again, i'm not aware of any

There are a handful of resorts which are affiliate resorts, which we never had VIP privilages at to begin with, and there are a small number of resorts we lost access to (Chicago, Boston, Galvesston), but those were glorified hotels anyway and in the case of Chicago, they didn't own it to begin with, and the owners of the hotel went a different route.

Be specific here, I think the OP is blowing smoke and this is a non-issue. Because even at resorts where Wyndham doesn't own all the units, when booking the non-wyndham units inside the resort (sometimes you don't even know it's not a non-wyndham unit...) from our Club Wyndham website (when it works...) our VIP privilages DO attach. I can think of several including Star Island, Sapphire Valley, Lake Lure, Shawnee Village, Lake Lure, SeaWatch. Likely others. I think Pagosa some of the units we could end up in aren't managed by Wyndham or maybe just not owned by

Other than Angel Fire, and the ones in Mexico, which I dont think was ever Wyndham managed, there aren't THAT many actual resorts that are associate resorts this would even come into play at...

Your questioning is based on lack of your own research. You can't be a Wyndham owner if you have nott seen pressed the resort information button and seen VIP BENEFITS DO NOT APPLY OR WYNDHAM DOES NOT MANAGE THIS RESORT. This, my friend, is significant to those who paid to have VIP Benefits. Read on and you will see my post which mentions the specifics of resorts who opted out of Wyndham management. There are many but you can do your own homework besides the ones I listed.

The question I pose is if this is a trend then what good did it do for me to become a Founder? What good did it do to have Wyndham take away 259,000 of my Wyndham Developer points thus lowering me from Founder to Platinum after I paid close to $ 30,000.00 for those points. The resort has gone under and much of the blame was put on the time Wyndham did manage the resort due to the high price of the required goods and services charged by Wyndham. They changed to self management but unfortunately it was too late. This cost me the lowering of not only my VIP benefits but also extra points I usually give to my children and grandchildren for vacations. The only smoke that is blown is the " smoke of madness coming out of my ears when I speak to a Wyndham representative ".

And you have the blatant ignorance to call this blowing smoke and a non-issue? You must work for Wyndham.

 

[paxsarah]

VIP BENEFITS DO NOT APPLY OR WYNDHAM DOES NOT MANAGE THIS RESORT. This, my friend, is significant to those who paid to have VIP Benefits.

As I pointed out earlier, the only VIP benefits that don’t apply are the onsite benefits, which currently comprise only dedicated check-in and early check-in when available (previously also newspaper and midweek tidy, now removed from the chart). Booking benefits still apply (which IMO are the most consequential benefits, from my non-VIP perspective).

For the not managed by Wyndham resorts, the only VIP benefits not recognized are what used to be separated out as "onsite" benefits.* At this point, those onsite benefits are few and far between - early check-in when available, VIP-only check-in line. You could still get VIP discounts and upgrades if you book within the appropriate window, and free/additional housekeeping credits depending on your grandfathered status.

 

[schreff]

For converted weeks, the conversion contract discusses the various termination options. In my most recent converted week, Paragraph 9(d) states that the conversion terminates if any of the following happen:

• The termination of the [entire] Club Wyndham Plus program,
• The termination of the vacation ownership plan under which the resort was organized,
• The termination of any over-arching condominium under which the resort operates,
• If the Trustee (i.e. Wyndham) determines the resort is "no longer suitable for use in [Wyndham]."

I was the person who converted that week, and I signed the document myself after reading it in its entirety. So, I knew these were possible. I also bought a week that was converted by someone else, but they gave me a copy of the conversion contract so that I knew what I was buying. That one had similar language, though probably not in exactly the same place or with exactly the same wording.

On termination (for any reason), my ownership would revert back to owning the fixed/floating week that was surrendered to the Trust as part of the conversion agreement, and the points associated with that conversion will "have no further use or value." (Paragraph 9(e)). I don't own any UDI, so I don't know what that contract says, but I suspect there are similar terms.

One thing to note: The agreement is not automatically terminated simply because the Board selects somoeone other than Wyndham as the management company. When KBV switched to Grand Pacific, converted weeks remained converted, and Wyndham owners there could continue to use their points, while Wyndham owners elsewhere could still book converted inventory.

Good information and 100% factual. The only additional information I have to add is for those buying in the resale market should be made aware of these caveats so that they are not buying a pig in a poke. This is a material defect in full disclose and legally the agency and/or private seller must make this known to the proposed buyer.

With reference to KBV, it appears that Wyndham who purchased and then managed KBV for many years and now manages it again was aware during their initial management phase of the structural problems which could either result in the end of KBV or an over $ 7000.00 special assessment per week to fix structural issues supposedly to have existed at time of construction. It's a pity because Kauai Beach Villas was one of our favorite resorts.

 

[schreff]

As I pointed out earlier, the only VIP benefits that don’t apply are the onsite benefits, which currently comprise only dedicated check-in and early check-in when available (previously also newspaper and midweek tidy, now removed from the chart). Booking benefits still apply (which IMO are the most consequential benefits, from my non-VIP perspective).

As I too pointed out earlier, these are benefits which we Wyndham VIPs have paid dearly for. They may seem insignificant but there has been a general erosion of VIP benefits over the past 10 years which has made our initial investment seem like a waste of money.

 

[paxsarah]

As I too pointed out earlier, these are benefits which we Wyndham VIPs have paid dearly for. They may seem insignificant but there has been a general erosion of VIP benefits over the past 10 years which has made our initial investment seem like a waste of money.

My VIP calculation (which has thus far prevented me from going that route) takes into account only financially quantifiable aspects of the program, but I know others see more value in the non-monetary aspects of the program. I guess I undervalued the current check-in benefits.

 

[chapjim]

My VIP calculation (which has thus far prevented me from going that route) takes into account only financially quantifiable aspects of the program, but I know others see more value in the non-monetary aspects of the program. I guess I undervalued the current check-in benefits.

No, you haven't undervalued anything. Early check-in has always been a phantasm, a farce -- not only because it depends on a unit being available but because some resorts never did it under any circumstances. They simply opted out. "We don't do that here." Consequently, we no longer even try to arrive early, even at resorts that are less than 30 minutes from home.

VIP check-in lines, where they still exist, are seldom manned. My wife stands in the VIP line waiting for someone to greet her. I get in the regular line and get us checked in.

These two so-called benefits may have subjective value to OP but they are merely symbolic, not worth getting spun up about.

 

[troy12n]

@schreff

Let me be perfectly clear here... we as Wyndham owners have not lost anything. You, as the owner of some insolvent properties which the HOA has disbanded, may have lost personally. But you know what, I chalk that up to a poor purchase decision, a timeshare in a horrible location, or bad HOA management. The two properties you mentioned (villa rica and New Bern) have been beyond neglected and are in locations where the timeshare demand has passed them by. But even in the situation of Villa Rica, we, as owners of the club, haven't really lost anything, except access to some units. The rest of the resort is still available to us. New Bern seems to be a different case, as Wyndham is apparently pulling the plug. But there's been grumblings of this resort being in poor condition and the HOA's bankrupt for a while, so this doesn't surprise me at all. I was hoping to book one last trip there in April, but it looks like that isn't happening. Oh well... I will stay nearby via RCI probably.

Also, I found your suggestion that I fact check your completely bogus claims to be surprisingly daft... especially when your entire post seems to be sour grapes, half truths and full of inaccuracies.

 

[Sandi Bo]

My VIP calculation (which has thus far prevented me from going that route) takes into account only financially quantifiable aspects of the program, but I know others see more value in the non-monetary aspects of the program. I guess I undervalued the current check-in benefits.

I know we joked about it a lot, but my Dad really liked his newspaper. When my Mom visits, I start up our daily deliveries.

 

[schreff]

No, you haven't undervalued anything. Early check-in has always been a phantasm, a farce -- not only because it depends on a unit being available but because some resorts never did it under any circumstances. They simply opted out. "We don't do that here." Consequently, we no longer even try to arrive early, even at resorts that are less than 30 minutes from home.

VIP check-in lines, where they still exist, are seldom manned. My wife stands in the VIP line waiting for someone to greet her. I get in the regular line and get us checked in.

These two so-called benefits may have subjective value to OP but they are merely symbolic, not worth getting spun up about.

It all depends on the individual. Some folks fly into some resorts like us and being older try to schedule our flights so that they co-incide with a 2PM arrival. This may mean nothing to you now but after a long tiresome trip it means something to those who have health problems and bought because of these benefits. When you pay as much as we did for Founder level it it not only a dollar value benefit but a comfort one which is important. If you paid for it you should get it. And I can attest to the fact that these benefits were not a farce in the past because we were never denied early check ins prior to the last few years. It is just another broken promise by Wyndham that benefits some who need and want it. It never seems to amaze me when some folks think that all the others in the world should feel like they do.

 

[schreff]

@schreff

Let me be perfectly clear here... we as Wyndham owners have not lost anything. You, as the owner of some insolvent properties which the HOA has disbanded, may have lost personally. But you know what, I chalk that up to a poor purchase decision, a timeshare in a horrible location, or bad HOA management. The two properties you mentioned (villa rica and New Bern) have been beyond neglected and are in locations where the timeshare demand has passed them by. But even in the situation of Villa Rica, we, as owners of the club, haven't really lost anything, except access to some units. The rest of the resort is still available to us. New Bern seems to be a different case, as Wyndham is apparently pulling the plug. But there's been grumblings of this resort being in poor condition and the HOA's bankrupt for a while, so this doesn't surprise me at all. I was hoping to book one last trip there in April, but it looks like that isn't happening. Oh well... I will stay nearby via RCI probably.

Also, I found your suggestion that I fact check your completely bogus claims to be surprisingly daft... especially when your entire post seems to be sour grapes, half truths and full of inaccuracies.

@schreff

Let me be perfectly clear here... we as Wyndham owners have not lost anything. You, as the owner of some insolvent properties which the HOA has disbanded, may have lost personally. But you know what, I chalk that up to a poor purchase decision, a timeshare in a horrible location, or bad HOA management. The two properties you mentioned (villa rica and New Bern) have been beyond neglected and are in locations where the timeshare demand has passed them by. But even in the situation of Villa Rica, we, as owners of the club, haven't really lost anything, except access to some units. The rest of the resort is still available to us. New Bern seems to be a different case, as Wyndham is apparently pulling the plug. But there's been grumblings of this resort being in poor condition and the HOA's bankrupt for a while, so this doesn't surprise me at all. I was hoping to book one last trip there in April, but it looks like that isn't happening. Oh well... I will stay nearby via RCI probably.

Also, I found your suggestion that I fact check your completely bogus claims to be surprisingly daft... especially when your entire post seems to be sour grapes, half truths and full of inaccuracies.

Your opinion seems to be biased and from outer space. Saying that we have lost nothing Is blatant misinformation and can only be do to lack of knowledge, limited travel, conflict of interest or being a new comer versus seasoned veteran. Most intelligent Wyndham owners and many of my Wyndham friends have noticed a material downgrade in not only benefits but in Wyndham quality over the past decade. If you venture a little further out of TUG and into the real world you would read many of these factual posts. You state that New Bern and Plantation were poor purchase decisions but then state that you want to go to New Bern again???????? Some folks like it there and I can attest to the fact that it is now in better shape than when Wyndham managed it at a much more exorbitant cost.

In ending, do your research instead of making up stories which are fantasy not fact. And if you state that not getting what you were promised is sour grapes, and that I stated half truths and inaccuracies. I reply I only want what I paid for and was promised by Cendent/Fairfield/Wyndham and ask you to show the half truths and inaccuracies while stating that you have no conflicts of interest with Wyndham in any way, now or in the past.

I do believe that TUG should have a policy that if any Tugger poster were ever associated with Wyndham or any Timeshare company directly or indirectly they should have to fully disclose that information. This is only common sense.

 

[CO skier]

I do believe that TUG should have a policy that if any Tugger poster were ever associated with Wyndham or any Timeshare company directly or indirectly they should have to fully disclose that information. This is only common sense.

There is a decade long history of those who are particularly Wyndham paranoid thinking that the only possible explanation for someone posting on TUG or any other social media in support of Wyndham can only be because they are/were a Wyndham employee, or some sort of social media "plant". Now, that is paranoia.

There is no question that some of the actions Wyndham took in the last decade were in response to VIP owners abusing privileges. Wyndham's corrective actions resulted in more availability for all Club Wyndham members. If you want to blame someone, blame the VIP owners whose actions led to the reduction in VIP benefits, not Wyndham for taking back control of the Club for the benefit of all members.

At this point, you must be thinking that I must be or were a Wyndham employee.

Here is my disclosure:

Wyndham eliminating mega-renters

I am going off topic There was a woman who rented pompano beach Wyndham. I haven’t seen her posts for a long time. I think it was vacation hopeful Any idea about her? If you check her profile - Linda /vacation hopeful was on TUG last month & last posted in 2020. She (did / does) own fixed...

tugbbs.com

 

[rickandcindy23]

I think Angel Fire Resort, NM, falls into this category of resorts not really managed by Wyndham. We have a single contract at Angel Fire and it has very low MF's. It's been a crazy thing to own. Wyndham transferred it to our name with no issues. The Angel Fire manager called me via phone about 3 years after the transfer to our names (transfer took place in summer of 2008) and said the owner still owns that deed and still pays on it and stays there. I told the woman that I have the deed, looked it up, and turned out that I am missing pages of the deed. She said you are missing pages because the deed is not valid. She said the transfer company (ebay) apparently decided to transfer anyway.

Wyndham should probably take that contract back, but maybe they don't want to lose control of yet another piece of Angel Fire.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Pagosa Springs is in horrible shape, at least some of the areas are in bad shape. The fees are outrageous at Pagosa Springs, too. How much is now managed by Wyndham, and how much is another management company? If it's all Wyndham, they need to get it together and fix up the older parts. Peregrine was actually nice after they moved us. It was recently renovated.

What I want at any Wyndham is a comfortable bed, a nice clean smell to the unit (which is apparently a tough thing to accomplish) and a toilet and shower that work well (plus the kitchen). Old units smell old.