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Grandview at Las Vegas: Deedback, Give away or stop paying MF ?

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Hi..

I really want to get rid of it at all costs. The maintenance fees have doubled since I've purchased the unit. I see quite a few Grandview units listed for $0, so it looks like I will not be able to recoup any losses. Now I have 3 options and would like your advice

Deedback : Saw another post that said it was about $250
Sell (for $0) : Will I still have to pay any transfer fees or anything ?
Stop paying maintenance fees. I understand this might affect my 'credit rating'. But I'm from the Netherlands, so should I really care about that at all ? Does it have any effect internationally ? I might be buying a new house in the next few years. What about if I come back to the US ? Will I be stopped at the border or anything like that ?

Any help much appreciated.
 

TheTimeTraveler

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TUG has a Free "Timeshare Giveaways and Bargain Deals" classification in which you can make a posting to give away your Timeshare. I would suggest that you pay your 2020 fees and offer to pay all closing costs and transfer fees for the new owner.

Use LT Transfers to handle the transaction for you. Here is their website: www.LTTransfers.com

Taking the above steps will be an incentive for someone to grab your Vegas unit without a high entry cost. After all, they usually want to save their money to do some gambling.

Best of luck with your marketing plan and welcome to TUG.





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Thanks for the quick reply, but now I have a new question :) How much would the 'closing costs' be ?
And if anyone knows, I would still like to know what happens if I just stop paying the MF as that seems the cheapest option for us.
 

TheTimeTraveler

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Thanks for the quick reply, but now I have a new question :) How much would the 'closing costs' be ?
And if anyone knows, I would still like to know what happens if I just stop paying the MF as that seems the cheapest option for us.


Obviously the cheapest option is to stop paying the maintenance fees, however that "could" create all sorts of legal and ethical issues. Is this the route you really want to go without trying to legally get your name off of your deed?

I believe LT Transfers would charge you $250 to handle your closing for you.




.
 

DaveNW

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Send me a PM with details of what you own at Grandview, please. I have a friend who would like to own there. He may be interested. Don’t post it in this thread, as advertising isn’t allowed.

Dave
 
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legal and ethical issues.
Ethical issues ? Would it come close to the unethical way this thing was sold to us ? I don't think so. I'm only worried if this has international legal implications. I don't think so, but maybe someone here actually *knows*.
 

dagger1

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I have wondered about how “unethical” it is to just stop paying MF’s ever since hearing the president of Wyndham discuss on Mad Money the costs Wyndham incurs when people hand their timeshares back. They accrue for this “bad debt”. It seems that it’s actually a part of Wyndham’s business model. They know they will be getting a lot of their points back, at which point they are responsible for the MF’s. They seem to be totally aware that by doubling their MF’s every 8-10 years, they will get a lot of inventory back.
 

Passepartout

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DutchTraveler, Like you, I don't think there would be major international credit issues. You would NOT be stopped at the US (or any other) border for defaulting on a loan. There is a fair chance that you would receive semi-threatening mail, email, perhaps phone calls attempting to coerce you into paying what you agreed to. And then there's the fact that other owners will be having to pay to maintain your unit if you are not going to (there's that ethics bit).

It's your decision of course, but I'd rather see you give it to a new owner- even at a cost of a couple hundred dollars than abandon it. At some time, you thought it was a worthwhile expense. If it's time to move on, so be it, but try not to pass the expense on to others. We wish you well, but remember, we are Timeshare USERS Group- not 'screw other owners' group.

Jim
 

Synergy

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Curious as to what week you own. Vacation Villages properties are mostly in overbuilt areas, so they don't retain much value, but a lot of them are still a step above worthless. A few weeks at each resort are actually something resembling valuable - not what you paid, but easy to pass on to someone else. As a Grandview owner, I ask you to at least try - what you're taking about doing is part of why maintenance fees increase for all remaining owners.
 

jabberwocky

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I have wondered about how “unethical” it is to just stop paying MF’s ever since hearing the president of Wyndham discuss on Mad Money the costs Wyndham incurs when people hand their timeshares back. They accrue for this “bad debt”. It seems that it’s actually a part of Wyndham’s business model. They know they will be getting a lot of their points back, at which point they are responsible for the MF’s. They seem to be totally aware that by doubling their MF’s every 8-10 years, they will get a lot of inventory back.
This discussion reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Kramer decides the easiest way to get a refund on a stereo is to buy postal insurance on a package because the post office will "write it off". :doh:

I suspect the Wyndham/Mad Money example refers to bad debt on loans with timeshare sales instead of unpaid MF.

But ignoring the fact that unpaid MF's most likely are paid by other owners rather than the company, just because a company has set up an allowance for something doesn't make it ethical to specifically take an action that will result in that allowance being used. Consider that most retailers also have an allowance for theft or "shrinkage" - would stealing then be okay because an accounting entry has been made somewhere? :shrug:

When there is a reasonable alternative to get rid of an unwanted asset I'm an advocate of taking the action which will fulfill contractual obligations. In this case the resort is relatively easy to get rid of via a viable transfer to a lucky new timeshare owner who will hopefully appreciate it (and also helps them avoid the snare of timeshare salespeople) or by a deedback for relatively low $$$.


 

Fredflintstone

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Trying first to unload your timeshare is always best. Give it away, sell it for a buck, etc.

If you try to give it away here on TUG Bargain, I bet you will get a taker.

If not, try EBay. Throw it in for a buck, pay the transfer fees and I’m sure it will be gone too.

If, after you tried you are still stuck with it, then look at other options.

Then never buy a timeshare again. Bank your MFs in a travel fund. Scour for the deals. Cash is King. I went from 9 timeshares to zero and I am having the vacation time of my life using the 10500 a year I saved on MF to actually travelling.


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bogey21

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Ethical issue because it is often the other owners that take on your financial burden when you walk away from your obligation.
If you are not defaulting on a loan, my guess is that Grandview Management will end up selling the Week to someone else, making money on the sale which should eliminate the burden to other owners...

George
 

Ski-Dad

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Grandview LV - Vacation Villages
I took over a Grandview unit last year and the fees through LT Transfers totaled $215 USD.

$150 - LT Transfer fee
$10 - Postage fee
$30 - County Recording Fee
$25 - Vacation Village Transfer Fee

Total - $215

You pay LT Transfer all the fees and they look after it. Easy peasy.

All you need is someone to take it.

Do you have a fixed or floating (RCI points) week?

There is a market for some of the floating points weeks, depending on the # of annuakl RCI points attached. The 61K (1 bdrm) and 122K (2 bdrm) RCI points weeks make great traders as a result of their MF to points ratio being below $0.01 per RCI point. You can usually get some money for these. There also 98K (2 bdrm) and 49K (1 bdrm) floating week units that also make decent traders, again with MF to points ratios below $0.01 per point. You can likely get someone to pay the transfer and perhaps 2020 MF to take this over. If you have a fixed week or something with lower points per week, you will likely need to incent someone to take it by paying the current year MF or paying the transfer fees or both.
 
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Grammarhero

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I have wondered about how “unethical” it is to just stop paying MF’s ever since hearing the president of Wyndham discuss on Mad Money the costs Wyndham incurs when people hand their timeshares back. They accrue for this “bad debt”. It seems that it’s actually a part of Wyndham’s business model. They know they will be getting a lot of their points back, at which point they are responsible for the MF’s. They seem to be totally aware that by doubling their MF’s every 8-10 years, they will get a lot of inventory back.
Be careful encouraging a TS owner not to pay MF. @Braindead will accuse you of being solely responsible for thousands of TS owners not paying MF. Check out the screenshot!
 

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Grammarhero

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Hope you were able to dispose and had many great memories
 

Grammarhero

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If you are not defaulting on a loan, my guess is that Grandview Management will end up selling the Week to someone else, making money on the sale which should eliminate the burden to other owners...

George
Hi George. Be careful encouraging others not to pay MF. @Braindead will accuse you of being solely responsible for thousands of TS owners not paying MF. Check out the screenshot.
 

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Fredflintstone

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Hi George. Be careful encouraging others not to pay MF. @Braindead will accuse you of being solely responsible for thousands of TS owners not paying MF. Check out the screenshot.
Just a thought. Is that why this person chose the alias “Braindead”? Oops...did I say that. . Ok, back to my happy space.


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Braindead

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I have wondered about how “unethical” it is to just stop paying MF’s ever since hearing the president of Wyndham discuss on Mad Money the costs Wyndham incurs when people hand their timeshares back. They accrue for this “bad debt”. It seems that it’s actually a part of Wyndham’s business model. They know they will be getting a lot of their points back, at which point they are responsible for the MF’s. They seem to be totally aware that by doubling their MF’s every 8-10 years, they will get a lot of inventory back.
but try not to pass the expense on to others. We wish you well, but remember, we are Timeshare USERS Group- not 'screw other owners' group.

Jim
Hi George. Be careful encouraging others not to pay MF. @Braindead will accuse you of being solely responsible for thousands of TS owners not paying MF. Check out the screenshot.
Just a thought. Is that why this person chose the alias “Braindead”? Oops...did I say that. . Ok, back to my happy space.


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Two on each side. Some can poke fun at me all they want.
But yes the owners left at the resort pay for the ones that stop paying MFs or walk away from a contract that they could afford to pay.
What happened to buckle up buttercup & honor your contract if you can? You made a mistake so now learn how to use your TS & enjoy making memories.
Jim says it best, we are Timeshares Users Group
Grammerhero should get his own website called Timeshares Exit Group
Grammerhero serves the same purpose as an exit company but doesn’t charge for the service. Either way the owners that are left end up paying the bill
 

Fredflintstone

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Two on each side. Some can poke fun at me all they want.
But yes the owners left at the resort pay for the ones that stop paying MFs or walk away from a contract that they could afford to pay.
What happened to buckle up buttercup & honor your contract if you can? You made a mistake so now learn how to use your TS & enjoy making memories.
Jim says it best, we are Timeshares Users Group
Grammerhero should get his own website called Timeshares Exit Group
Grammerhero serves the same purpose as an exit company but doesn’t charge for the service. Either way the owners that are left end up paying the bill
I encourage you to read the following passage that came from Finn Law Group who specializes in timeshare law:

Distinguish timeshare valuation from other kinds of actual real estate valuation:

To better understand the underpinnings of the controversy, we need to distinguish timeshare valuation from other kinds of actual real estate valuation. Typical real estate valuation is based upon market forces that, working together comprise and define the market value of the subject property.

Consequently when that property is sold at foreclosure auction, if market forces are properly in play, then the property will be auctioned off or sold for an amount close to the property’s actual market value. Therefore if a debtor was unable to continue making payments on his or her property’s underlying mortgage, at least when the property is sold at foreclosure sale, the net amount obtained at auction sale would first be credited against the mortgage debt. Therefore there is not only a fair chance of the mortgage debtor’s debt being extinguished but perhaps if the market value has appreciated, those surplus funds still remaining after the mortgage debt is fully satisfied would then be paid back to the debtor, hopefully to be used for a fresh start.
Contrast this possible outcome with a timeshare foreclosure where the only bidder for the foreclosed property is the Developer who, as a practical matter, never lost possession or control of the interest in any event, since it was always contained within the four corners of the Developer’s project. Also, note that that foreclosed timeshare interest was maintained at the exact same level of maintenance as its neighboring adjacent interests and therefore its condition was precisely the same as its neighbors. The foreclosing Developer has just gained a double windfall by retaining the monies it received prior to foreclosure from our debtor and again when the interest was then resold to the next purchaser, presumably for at minimum, the same price that the defaulting debtor had paid. Due to what I would characterize as a Developer inspired legislative oversight in the law, typically none of the proceeds from the next subsequent sale are credited against the so-called debt (the balance of the previous unpaid purchase price).
This completely inequitable result appears, to me at minimum, to be patently unfair. Even worse, to then allow the timeshare developer to pursue the former owner for the unpaid balance of the purchase price after retaining the funds that were paid prior to default, in addition to the Developer retaining the complete sales price from the next buyer, to me, creates an absolute unconscionable and unfair result!

Indeed therefore, regularly reselling the same interest over and over again would arguably be more profitable for the Developer than working with the then current owners to alleviate any need for foreclosure!

The inescapable conclusion therefore is if you are a timeshare developer, repeatedly foreclosing on your owner’s interest is truly the gift that keeps on giving, and giving, and giving!

Source: https://www.finnlawgroup.com/the-timeshare-foreclosure-fiasco/




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Fredflintstone

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So my question remains based on a Law Firms opinion that specializes in Timeshare Law is why are owners billed bad debt in the first place if the developer/resort is cashing in on resales? I would at least expect owners to be reimbursed on their bad debt expense when money is made by reselling.

As for @Grammarhero, he has, in my view, simply helped folks with legal information sharing. He has, in no way, promoted the idea that people stop paying MF. As I have said, based on reading many @Grammarhero posts, he is an upstanding person who deserves to be treated that way. Him being labelled and accused is frankly uncalled for, possibly tortious, harmful and inappropriate in my view. Disagree is ok. Pointing fingers and labelling is not.

Perhaps, instead of labelling and accusing people as scammers or implied liars (false information), you should focus on expressing your own views. I think your points would garner more respect.

Sadly, timeshares are one of few items that are very difficult to get rid of properly. I think that needs to change. That’s why we advocate for deed backs, selling on eBay, TUG and others. No one, in my view, should be left with desperate choices to move on.

Just my thoughts.


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Fredflintstone

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And just for your reference, here is your post using words like scammers and implying someone being a liar (false information)




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CalGalTraveler

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@Braindead You sound like a shill for the developer. i.e. "Let's continue the developer sham of keeping consumers uneducated so they get stuck and continue to pay."

Yes let's keep people clueless and powerless because that always is the best approach...LOL

Sure. There are people who will take advantage of this knowledge to play the system but that's 1% and they don't care and would walk anyway. You cannot put the toothpaste back in the tube for these people. They are likely walking away from more obligations than timeshares and don't care.

I am in favor of enabling the 99% who truly need to know their options because they are stuck and life changes happen. They are being lied to and harassed by the developer as to their options to exit. They are being charged unsubstantiated extortion fees to exit after 20 years of dutifully paying. They are elderly or in poor health. They would not have purchased if resale values had been disclosed they had not been lied to, or knew that the developer can change the program rules from the originally agreed upon contract at any time, or that disposing would be so difficult.

The laws for anti-deficiency keeps the developers honest. And let's not kid ourselves. Those units are getting re-rented and their business models are designed so the developers are not losing a dime. They own the mortgages so they can take back the unit efficiently. Little damage here.

Perhaps HOA owners are paying, but if the developer is incented because of anti-deficiency laws to sell to qualified buyers and fully disclose instead of lying and selling to anyone who can fog a mirror, then that is good for the HOA as well. Where is the responsibility of the developer to sell to qualified buyers? Where is the responsibility of the developer to keep to the terms of the original maintenance fee costs and program trading agreement?

Finally, let's not forget the TUG motto: "Truth about timeshares since..." Let's enable owners to know their the truth on exit options. These laws were written because the greed, and excesses of the timeshare developers got out of hand. I wish more states would follow the non-judicial, anti-deficiency models of California, Florida, South Carolina and Maine because the TS companies clearly cannot self-regulate their greed.

It is up to the ethics of each individual and their specific situation to decide based on the information provided.

No TUGers are forcing anyone to do anything. If you believe this info does that, I have a timeshare on swampland in Florida to sell you.
 
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