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Going on Westin St. John sales tour

joshposh

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Hi all. I’m going on a tour at Westin St. John just to get a free snorkel tour. We are actually interested in a unit here but obviously not retail.

A few questions:

1) are developer prices negotiable ? To the price points of resale? I figured I’ll just offer them a market price for the Virgin grand (mandatory) 3 br platinum and see if they bite.

2) what do you think the 257,500 points are worth?

3) my math is a 3-4 year payoff on a three bedroom Virgin grand (mandatory) in highest season. So that would put the value at 8-10k.

Conservative math is: (rental price - MF)x3. Roughly (6000-3100)x3

thoughts?
 

sharr7

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We heard a sales pitch in August, were offered a "limited time" 30% off basically everything they offered, plus full value credit (~14k) from a prior retail purchase if we traded that in. Beyond that they didn't seem particularly negotiable but I'm not the greatest negotiator either.

However, the 257,700 options at VGV were still base price like $100,000 so even with the "discounts" you're still well above what you'd probably consider spending, knowing that resales are out there.

I think you're trying to value them fairly arbitrarily based on your opinions (where's a 3-4 year payoff expectation come from? SO value depends mainly on how much you use the VSN system and where you go). It's great to have some idea of what something is worth to you using the exercises you suggest, but of course it's really the sellers that set the value (Vistana or owner resales). 10k resale for a 3BR VGV may be doable though. Perhaps a bit more. But you'll never get that low from Vistana in my opinon.
 

SandyPGravel

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Please share their reaction when you tell them the resale price you're willing to pay. I'm sure it will come with the scare tactic that you will never be able to trade within the Marriott system with a resale. But who would trade, unless you want to go to Hawaii or Cabo. Even then you are still a mandatory within VSN and there is always direct trade with an owner or renting.

When I've told sales staff what I paid for my resale VGV plat + 2BR, they were, for the most part, impressed with the deal.
 

joshposh

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We heard a sales pitch in August, were offered a "limited time" 30% off basically everything they offered, plus full value credit (~14k) from a prior retail purchase if we traded that in. Beyond that they didn't seem particularly negotiable but I'm not the greatest negotiator either.

However, the 257,700 options at VGV were still base price like $100,000 so even with the "discounts" you're still well above what you'd probably consider spending, knowing that resales are out there.

I think you're trying to value them fairly arbitrarily based on your opinions (where's a 3-4 year payoff expectation come from? SO value depends mainly on how much you use the VSN system and where you go). It's great to have some idea of what something is worth to you using the exercises you suggest, but of course it's really the sellers that set the value (Vistana or owner resales). 10k resale for a 3BR VGV may be doable though. Perhaps a bit more. But you'll never get that low from Vistana in my opinon.
My valuation is arbitrary to a certain extent but also based on risk/reward, worst case scenario,
Please share their reaction when you tell them the resale price you're willing to pay. I'm sure it will come with the scare tactic that you will never be able to trade within the Marriott system with a resale. But who would trade, unless you want to go to Hawaii or Cabo. Even then you are still a mandatory within VSN and there is always direct trade with an owner or renting.

When I've told sales staff what I paid for my resale VGV plat + 2BR, they were, for the most part, impressed with the deal.
what did you pay if you don’t mind me asking?
 

Citygal

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Hi all. I’m going on a tour at Westin St. John just to get a free snorkel tour. We are actually interested in a unit here but obviously not retail.

A few questions:

1) are developer prices negotiable ? To the price points of resale? I figured I’ll just offer them a market price for the Virgin grand (mandatory) 3 br platinum and see if they bite.

2) what do you think the 257,500 points are worth?

3) my math is a 3-4 year payoff on a three bedroom Virgin grand (mandatory) in highest season. So that would put the value at 8-10k.

Conservative math is: (rental price - MF)x3. Roughly (6000-3100)x3

thoughts?
What would you say a one-bedroom is worth for platinum season??? Any issues with the resort??? Thanks!
 

DavidnRobin

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The only 1Bd villas at WSJ are in VGV.
Plat+ offers best SO/MF and down from there for each season.
No need to buy this from Vistana as there is no real loss in buying resale.
I don’t know what the resale price is, but do know someone that bought a 2Bd TH Gold+ (95.6K SOs) for $4000
These are deeded weeks (including checkin day).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

DanCali

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Hi all. I’m going on a tour at Westin St. John just to get a free snorkel tour. We are actually interested in a unit here but obviously not retail.

A few questions:

1) are developer prices negotiable ? To the price points of resale? I figured I’ll just offer them a market price for the Virgin grand (mandatory) 3 br platinum and see if they bite.

2) what do you think the 257,500 points are worth?

3) my math is a 3-4 year payoff on a three bedroom Virgin grand (mandatory) in highest season. So that would put the value at 8-10k.

Conservative math is: (rental price - MF)x3. Roughly (6000-3100)x3

thoughts?

I am not an expert on this resort but at some point I was looking to buy so here are my thoughts.

1) Developer prices are not negotiable, but the more resistance you offer, the more "extras" they will offer. They don't care about resale prices and as far as they are concerned you're not even supposed to know that market exists...

2) Not sure what you mean by what are 257,500 worth? Worth when buying from developer? When buying resale? Worth as rental value? In general though resale prices reflect what people are willing to pay for those weeks. The resale market for timeshares priced over $2000-$3000 tends to be pretty efficient.

3) The 3 BR Pool villas general rental price is $4500-$5000 on http://www.westinstjohnrentals.com/ so that's who you are competing with and they already have an established customer base. You will see some prices like $9000 on RedWeek and maybe a New Year's Week might rent for that much (I wouldn't know) - I suspect many of those adjust the price or go unrented. I'll sometimes list a week at an unusually high price if my Plan B is to use it myself. If it rents great and if it doesn't that's even greater! $4500-$5000 seems more realistic to me - I've rented myself at $4500 from that website before, but it was a summer break week.

Which brings me to your math regarding the payback period, which is how I also think of things. I think you're being highly aggressive - that's not a worst case scenario but a dream scenario... At a 3-year payoff you are implying a 30%-35% annual return. A 2 BR Platinum at Westin Kierland Villas has a payback of 4 to 5 years (say $13K resale purchase price and $2500-$3000 rental above MFs) and I think that's super hard to beat.

It's been a while since I shopped around for WSJ but my recollection is that the payback period here is more like 10+ years because the supply is limited (no 3BR on RedWeek now, for example) and asking prices for PP weeks that do list are generally very high, especially after the bump to 257,700 SOs. A 10 year payback period is still a respectable 10% annual return though if resale value doesn't go down, but people don't buy here because of low maintenance fees or an unusually high rental value (Hawaii and WKV high season weeks also can rent for ~$4500). If you care most about payback period, you could maybe do slightly better at WSJ with a summer week (priced lower) , but that 3BR VGV summer week would only give you only about 125K SOs - not even enough for a 2BR island view in Hawaii.

So if you want to be "conservative" think rental value of $4500. If you can get $6000 that's great, but $6000 is not "conservative". On the other end of the equation, you list $3100 for maintenance fees but with SVN fee it's more like $3300 and I'm not sure if that includes taxes. @DavidnRobin can elaborate more on the tax issue and how it gets billed. So going back to your math - in the end you may not make more than $1000-$1500 over maintenance fees and you're not likely to see a 3BR VGV listed for less than $15K. It's worth what people will pay for it...
 
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carpie99

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So if you want to be "conservative" think rental value of $4500. If you can get $6000 that's great, but $6000 is not "conservative". On the other end of the equation, you list $3100 for maintenance fees but with SVN fee it's more like $3300 and I'm not sure if that includes taxes. @DavidnRobin can elaborate more on the tax issue and how it gets billed. So going back to your math - in the end you may not make more than $1000-$1500 over maintenance fees and you're not likely to see a 3BR VGV listed for less than $15K. It's worth what people will pay for it...

Taxes must be about $275 and separate from maintenance fees and SVN fee of $159 (assuming you don't already own 2 other Vistana properties).

Also these rate of returns also assume 100% success on rentals ... if it doesn't rent one year you just knocked your "pay-off" back another 3+ years.

Are you looking to buy as an income generator?? Or an every-other year renter?
 

SandyPGravel

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Taxes for my VGV 2 BR TH in Plat+ season are $281. (Separate from MF bill)
 

DanCali

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Thanks for that info @SandyPGravel and @carpie99.

So for the 3BR villa it sounds like you are starting with about $3600 in annual costs (MF+tax+VSN fee). Rental value is (conservatively) about $1000-$1500 higher. So if the OP was hoping for a payback period of 3-4 years then the selling price should be $5K-$6K at most - if that were the only factor being considered. My guess is that a PP 3BR VGV would cost substantially more than that (3x-4x more at least) because for most people this type of math is not the main reason to buy at Westin St. John. Others would factor in that you are getting a mandatory purchase with 257K SOs (only such option in the system) giving you lots of internal trading possibilities, the MF/SO is actually pretty decent, you are getting the guaranteed ability to book the same week every year, etc.

There are many reasons to buy at WSJ. Each potential buyer will weigh those reasons differently. But a quick payback on initial cash outlay purely based on rental values is not something that pops off the charts.
 

DavidnRobin

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Our 2Bd TH Gold+ Property Tax is ~$160

and don’t forget about that wonderful $25/nite ($175/wk) ‘Environmental Fee’ imposed by the USVI.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

cubigbird

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Our 2Bd TH Gold+ Property Tax is ~$160

and don’t forget about that wonderful $25/nite ($175/wk) ‘Environmental Fee’ imposed by the USVI.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do we have any evidence this USVI “environmental fee” is actually doing anything other than lining the governor’s pockets?
 

SandyPGravel

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Do we have any evidence this USVI “environmental fee” is actually doing anything other than lining the governor’s pockets?

Don't forget, unless I misunderstood something, this ONLY is applicable to the environmental impact of TS stays. AirBnB, VRBO have no environmental impact. Apologies if I'm incorrect.
 

cubigbird

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Don't forget, unless I misunderstood something, this ONLY is applicable to the environmental impact of TS stays. AirBnB, VRBO have no environmental impact. Apologies if I'm incorrect.
I believed that is correct. I stayed in an AirBnB after checking out of WSJ and recall not seeing that stupid $25 fee. Not sure what the VI gov’t is trying to accomplish with that. There is no difference in “environmental impact.”
 

dioxide45

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I believed that is correct. I stayed in an AirBnB after checking out of WSJ and recall not seeing that stupid $25 fee. Not sure what the VI gov’t is trying to accomplish with that. There is no difference in “environmental impact.”
They can more easily collect from the big corporations that operate on the island than some tech company operating in another state and from an owner where they really don't even know they are renting it out.
 

daviator

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They can more easily collect from the big corporations that operate on the island than some tech company operating in another state and from an owner where they really don't even know they are renting it out.
Translation: We're easier to fleece.
 

CPNY

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Took the 8am westin Ferry. Got to the gate by 9:34am. What to do for hours on end? LOL

I think the lines will be really long as the day goes on. One piece of information I wish I knew ahead of time was to bring my global entry card. Apparently that is needed to utilize the global entry lane. I was probably brought up here before but I absolutely missed it.
 
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bobpark56

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Hi all. I’m going on a tour at Westin St. John just to get a free snorkel tour. We are actually interested in a unit here but obviously not retail.

A few questions:

1) are developer prices negotiable ? To the price points of resale? I figured I’ll just offer them a market price for the Virgin grand (mandatory) 3 br platinum and see if they bite.

2) what do you think the 257,500 points are worth?

3) my math is a 3-4 year payoff on a three bedroom Virgin grand (mandatory) in highest season. So that would put the value at 8-10k.

Conservative math is: (rental price - MF)x3. Roughly (6000-3100)x3

thoughts?
Forget the developer prices. Ask the about their repossessed units. We acquired a 3BR EOY Pool villa for $11,000, which seems to have been a good deal. Our grandkids love to visit us there.
 

DavidnRobin

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Forget the developer prices. Ask the about their repossessed units. We acquired a 3BR EOY Pool villa for $11,000, which seems to have been a good deal. Our grandkids love to visit us there.

What season?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Shugga Dugga

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What's the best way to rent out my week at WSJ? I'd rather leave the contract and advertising to someone else. RedWeek? a broker on the island?
 

dioxide45

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What's the best way to rent out my week at WSJ? I'd rather leave the contract and advertising to someone else. RedWeek? a broker on the island?
There is Redween Full Service, Koala, Vrbo or Airbnb. A local broker might be another option, but I don't know of any.

Koala, Vrbo and Airbnb don't cost you anything upfront but may cost more on the back end in commissions.
Redweek Full Service has upfront fees that you pay if you rent it or not. More fees when it rents but may be cheaper than the other three depending on the price of your rental.
 

Eric B

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I just rented one out using Koala. Fee is 8%. I had also listed the week on Redweek, where I think it was a $59 up front fee plus a $99 fee if it rents, using their verified and protected option.
 
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