Frustrating email this morning from an owner

[T-Dot-Traveller]

Watch it
I acquired one at 75 and two at 76

I hope your ownership portfolio isn’t growing exponentially .
you could own more weeks than are in a year before your 85
1-2-4-8-16-32-64 .......

 

[twise625]

I have no use whatsoever for SMTN --- and never did. Btw, the TUGBrian-referenced "he" in post #1 is apparently a "she" (a widow), but that detail is not relevant to the following observation.

I don't really see how SMTN qualifies as a "scam" operation. SMTN takes (entirely too much) money to post (grossly overpriced) listings for (entirely willing) wannabe sellers. In the (relatively rare?) instances where a sale actually occurs later, SMTN charges truly exorbitant closing costs. Surely, there is not much positive to be said about any of those practices, but where's the "scam"?

I made an offer for a timeshare through SMTN where I proposed the seller pay the closing cost. SMTN refused to submit the offer to the seller. This to me qualifies them as "scam". The seller should always have the right to at least see and respond to all offers.

 

[rapmarks]

I hope your ownership portfolio isn’t growing exponentially .
you could own more weeks than are in a year before your 85
1-2-4-8-16-32-64 .......

Definitely slowing down, in process of giving one away now.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Our current president is 78 and our previous president was 74 when he left office earlier this year. Hopefully, they are thinking clearly and rationally.

The email that Brian received could have been written by my sister, except for her not being a widow. She was in her mid-70s, stayed at a Wyndham Resort, did the tour for the freebies, had no intention of buying, but got talked into it. Three years later they hadn't used it, their kids weren't interested, and it was a financial drain.

 

[LannyPC]

You would think they would at least advise on a realistic list price.

I agree. But that's part of their business model. They tell owners that SMTN is a site for owners who want to get "full market value" for their TSs and thus, it's worth it to use SMTN and SMTN's high listing price. Whereas, low-cost listing websites such as TUG, Red Week, E-Bay, and Craigslist, etc., are for owners who don't care how much (or how little) they get for their TS, they just need to quickly get rid of it regardless of how much of a loss they're taking from the "full market value".

 

[LannyPC]

We need to remember we are only seeing one part of the picture. We weren't on the sales floor. We don't know what was said.
For all we know the sales force at Wyndham might actually have taken precautions to assure that she wasn't saddled with a financial obligation she couldn't happen. Perhaps she had a view of creating a place for vacations with family and friends, that she could pass on to children/grandchildren, but it hasn't worked our for her the way she imagined. So now she has a timeshare she isn't using - not an uncommon occurrence with timeshare purchases regardless of age.

I'm not saying that is what the situation.

...Or perhaps that she could rent it out for a healthy profit.

 

[GrampaTim]

I get those calls frequently to take the timeshare off my hands for a fee. They can never believe when I tell them I don’t want to sell, I use it every year, and love it. That never stopped the calls so now I simply ask “Whatr’s a timeshare”, and then constantly misinterpret their follow up questions. The calls have finally stopped.

They should know we elderly can never understand what they are saying, but it sure drives them nuts when I constantly answer the wrong question. It’s on my do not call phone, so I never feel bad wrecking their pitch.

 

[Gypsy65]

I get those calls frequently to take the timeshare off my hands for a fee. They can never believe when I tell them I don’t want to sell, I use it every year, and love it. That never stopped the calls so now I simply ask “Whatr’s a timeshare”, and then constantly misinterpret their follow up questions. The calls have finally stopped.

They should know we elderly can never understand what they are saying, but it sure drives them nuts when I constantly answer the wrong question. It’s on my do not call phone, so I never feel bad wrecking their pitch.

Thats awesome

Reminds me of Jim Florentine and his prank telemarketing calls

 

[cbyrne1174]

OMG I got curious and they literally have 1,295 listings for CWA contracts at basically retail costs. I usually only have the pay the $299 transfer fee whenever I pick up a new deed. How can people see how many listings there actually are and be like "Yea I'm just going to give this money upfront the a company that clearly isn't actually able to sell anything".

 

[theo]

IMO, by charging an upfront fee. Your definition of what constitutes being a scam may be different than mine.

I guess we can just agree to disagree on a definition of "scam". People voluntarily (if unwisely) choosing to overpay, upfront, to place a "listing" on an Internet site is certainly a not a wise personal decision, but some SMTN listings do indeed ultimately produce a buyer and a successful closing and a transfer of ownership. Personally, I consider a "scam" to be an operation that collects upfront money with absolutely no chance (nor any intention) to ever successfully achieve the desired objective (a sale, in this case). YMMV.

To repeat my original statement, I have no use whatsoever for SMTN --- and never did. I just tend to wince a little bit whenever a bad personal decision is promptly labeled a "scam", whether that bad decision involves falling for a sales weasel pitch at a timeshare presentation, falling for a "extended auto warranty" pitch over the phone --- or paying SMTN far too much money to place a "listing".

 

[theo]

You would think they would at least advise on a realistic list price.

Doing so might subject them to applicable laws and regulations requiring real estate licensure; SMTN is not going to go there.

The SMTN model is obviously to collect whatever bucks they can cajole a "client" into paying for a "listing", even if that listing is grossly overpriced. For the occasional sale (after the inevitable "crickets" result in a price reduction), there is even more "gravy" for SMTN when they next charge entirely too much money for closing costs (and SMTN mandates using SMTN for said closings).

While I have no use for SMTN, they have been around and successful for years --- and will be around and successful for many more. It's easy for desperate people to just write a check, rather than undertake the time and effort required to attempt a resale on their own, or pursue a "deedback" with the HOA (the latter not being an available option with a mortgage or any unpaid fees). I do not at all like or endorse SMTN or their practices, but they have clearly found a "niche" and nothing about what they do is illegal (or a "scam").

 

[Magus]

ANY company that requires an upfront fee is a scam company.

I don't agree with that definition, although in the TS world the two are closely linked for certain. Selling something like a TS can be a lot of work with no payout for the broker, so I don't have a problem with a firm charging an upfront fee provided its 1) reasonable to the amount of hours required to do the job 2) they are realistic with the seller about the likelihood of selling it at a given price. If they tell the seller they'll have no problem selling the above timeshare for $20k knowing its worth $1 at most, that's a different story and definitely a scam.

Personally, I'm amazed how people would shell out $1400 for a service like this without a lick of research. Or even just consider it on a per hour basis. $50/hr, which is very high for this kind of work, would be ~30 hour of work. A more reasonable $25/hr would be ~55 hours of work. Even the ~30 hours seems excessive for an upfront fee. It'll be interesting to see if the generation of retirees in about 15-20 years are as likely to fall for these kinds of things given they are far more likely be have a very long history of being at least reasonably tech savvy.

 

[Gypsy65]

I think one thing a lot of people miss is that the so called scammers are people the purchaser went to on their own free will

And many times it was because of greed
Either the gift card. Discounted nights. Park passes or whatever

They or we went there on our time. Our reservations etc

No one came to us so they or we. Anyone who feels ripped of deserves it
Not being lied to but doesn’t that fall back on us. The consumer for not doing our own research?

I have known people that have done more research on a $20 cell phone case than a $20,000 TS

 

[rickandcindy23]

I made an offer for a timeshare through SMTN where I proposed the seller pay the closing cost. SMTN refused to submit the offer to the seller. This to me qualifies them as "scam". The seller should always have the right to at least see and respond to all offers.

TUG members have posted that sort of thing here before. I know that they make money from the seller and tend to not work at getting a buyer. Why would they even bother to get a buyer? And how many people list with SMTN and then pay an exit company, rather than to take whatever they can get? SMTN has no right to take money and not present all offers.

 

[rickandcindy23]

OMG I got curious and they literally have 1,295 listings for CWA contracts at basically retail costs. I usually only have the pay the $299 transfer fee whenever I pick up a new deed. How can people see how many listings there actually are and be like "Yea I'm just going to give this money upfront the a company that clearly isn't actually able to sell anything".
View attachment 34446

Unbelievable! Scammers, pure and simple.

 

[Mongoose]

I have a friend that is trying to find a way to list his timeshare for sale. I have repeatedly told him to call me before he makes a final decision to list the property. He is a magnet for people wanting money to sell his property. The number of times that the "sales organization" has needed money up front for whatever reason has been 100%.

It took me 3 months to convince him that all of these people will take his money and do nothing. This is why these organizations exist. There are people that pay the fees, have nothing happen and meekly never tell anyone about it.

It makes me sad to see how this works, but many people are just too gullible and unsuspecting.

In the case above, Wyndham has condoned the transaction. Unfortunately Wyndham has probably broken no laws, but the ethics of their behavior is repulsive.

Over the years I have been able to sell 4 on ebay for a modest profit and give back the deed for two others. They were all $1 ebay specials chosen carefully that I bought in the past 15 years. I even had one developer (The Resort on Cocoa Beach - VRI) buy my week back for $5K. It seems to me, right now, the prices people are getting on ebay are up. Probably pent up demand from COVID.

 

[RX8]

These advertising listing companies know what they are doing. They get as close to the scammer line as possible without going over. They avoid scammer territory by providing a service (placing an ad on their website). That ad true value may be zero, or slightly more, but they collect thousands. As I have suggested in previous posts, their real business model is dialing for dollars. Many of the advertising listing companies cold call (likely against DNC rules) and lie through their teeth to get their money. Their contract and disclosures contradict those lies.

SMTN is the “best” of them only in that they have been around for a number of years. They have perfected how extract thousands of dollars and stay off the Attorney General radar. That doesn’t mean that they are a reputable company.

 

[HitchHiker71]

ANY timeshare exit company that requires an upfront fee is a scam company.

Adjusted for accuracy. There are literally entire segments of the services sector built on service fees paid in advance, some for very valid business reasons. In the IT consulting sector for example - any SOW under 50-100k is typically invoiced upon signature. For larger deals, the SOW uses a ladder invoicing model based on milestones - but even the ladders are billed ahead of actual hours consumed. I’ve only seen rare occasions with multimillion dollar contracts where any exception is made.

In the software industry - it is best practice to invoice in advance for software maintenance contracts. Whenever a client renews software maintenance, the entirety of the annual software maintenance contract amount is billed in advance (typically one year maintenance renewals).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rickandcindy23]

These advertising listing companies know what they are doing. They get as close to the scammer line as possible without going over. They avoid scammer territory by providing a service (placing an ad on their website). That ad true value may be zero, or slightly more, but they collect thousands. As I have suggested in previous posts, their real business model is dialing for dollars. Many of the advertising listing companies cold call (likely against DNC rules) and lie through their teeth to get their money. Their contract and disclosures contradict those lies.

SMTN is the “best” of them only in that they have been around for a number of years. They have perfected how extract thousands of dollars and stay off the Attorney General radar. That doesn’t mean that they are a reputable company.

Agree with that. They did cold call me a few times and tried to talk me into listing my timeshare I had listed on MRN. So they are one of the cold call scammers, or at least they were.

 

[Fried_shrimp]

I guess we can just agree to disagree on a definition of "scam". People voluntarily (if unwisely) choosing to overpay, upfront, to place a "listing" on an Internet site is certainly a not a wise personal decision, but some SMTN listings do indeed ultimately produce a buyer and a successful closing and a transfer of ownership. Personally, I consider a "scam" to be an operation that collects upfront money with absolutely no chance (nor any intention) to ever successfully achieve the desired objective (a sale, in this case). YMMV.

To repeat my original statement, I have no use whatsoever for SMTN --- and never did. I guess I just tend wince a little bit whenever a bad personal decision is promptly labeled a "scam", whether that bad decision involves falling for a sales weasel pitch at a timeshare presentation, falling for a "extended auto warranty" pitch over the phone --- or paying SMTN far too much money to place a "listing".

It's okay that we disagree about what constitutes a scam but as what cbyrne posted before your post, if a company is listing resale units at near retail pricing when it is easy to get those same units for next to nothing, IMO, they are collecting money with almost no chance, or hardly any intention, of actually making a sale for the owner. But we can disagree and that's fine.

 

[rickandcindy23]

It's okay that we disagree about what constitutes a scam but as what cbyrne posted before your post, if a company is listing resale units at near retail pricing when it is easy to get those same units for next to nothing, IMO, they are collecting money with almost no chance, or hardly any intention, of actually making a sale for the owner. But we can disagree and that's fine.

Yes. This is exactly what I define as a scam company.

There is a TUGger here that is a broker in FL that really doesn't like to see negatives about SMTN because he says they help struggling resorts to get new owners. If SMTN doesn't present offers because they don't think the seller will agree, they are not doing the job they are being paid to do.

It's one scam right after another with these companies that promise the moon.

 

[Fried_shrimp]

Adjusted for accuracy. There are literally entire segments of the services sector built on service fees paid in advance, some for very valid business reasons. In the IT consulting sector for example - any SOW under 50-100k is typically invoiced upon signature. For larger deals, the SOW uses a ladder invoicing model based on milestones - but even the ladders are billed ahead of actual hours consumed. I’ve only seen rare occasions with multimillion dollar contracts where any exception is made.

In the software industry - it is best practice to invoice in advance for software maintenance contracts. Whenever a client renews software maintenance, the entirety of the annual software maintenance contract amount is billed in advance (typically one year maintenance renewals).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are correct. My post was intended to reference timeshare exit companies (since that is what this thread is about) but I agree, what I posted and what was meant were not exactly the same.

 

[dioxide45]

Sadly, a few months from now this owner will be contacted by a Timeshare Exit Company and because there is a loan, will be asked to shell out many thousands more to get out of the contract. Once you are taken advantage of once, your name starts to get passed around.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Sadly, a few months from now this owner will be contacted by a Timeshare Exit Company and because there is a loan, will be asked to shell out many thousands more to get out of the contract. Once you are taken advantage of once, your name starts to get passed around.

Yes, that is so true.

 

[escanoe]

I was looking at a free timeshare on Timeshare Nation and the site indicated on the ad what market costs were. I was wondering if the range for market prices they gave went up to developer sales, the prices were so high. They provided a link where one could see what market prices were. When you clicked on it, the link took you to all the listings for that timeshare on SMTN.

This is absolutely criminal.

Seems to me it is highly repulsive and

OMG I got curious and they literally have 1,295 listings for CWA contracts at basically retail costs. I usually only have the pay the $299 transfer fee whenever I pick up a new deed. How can people see how many listings there actually are and be like "Yea I'm just going to give this money upfront the a company that clearly isn't actually able to sell anything".
View attachment 34446