• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $21,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $21 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

From the NY Post - Hilton fears bad rep over timeshare deal

ocdb8r

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
1,543
Reaction score
754
Points
473
Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere, but how would a sale impact owners at properties like Elara? As I recall, HGV is only a partial owner there. Would each property make a choice about whether to go with the new company or breakaway?

Short answer - a sale of HGV does little to change the management contract dynamic that exists at each property.

Each property already makes this decision on a regular basis; HGV does not have a management contract in perpetuity. At many properties, the ownerships they hold as a developer gives them effective control of the Board of each property and thus there's little risk of them losing their contract. This would continue as the new owner would gain these positions. What could affect things is those independent Board members that are fans of HGV could sour on a new owner and try to push their Boards to select a different company to manage their property.
 

audirt

Guest
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
76
Reaction score
34
Points
78
Short answer - a sale of HGV does little to change the management contract dynamic that exists at each property.

Each property already makes this decision on a regular basis; HGV does not have a management contract in perpetuity. At many properties, the ownerships they hold as a developer gives them effective control of the Board of each property and thus there's little risk of them losing their contract. This would continue as the new owner would gain these positions. What could affect things is those independent Board members that are fans of HGV could sour on a new owner and try to push their Boards to select a different company to manage their property.
Makes sense. Thanks.
 

WalnutBaron

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
2,193
Reaction score
2,585
Points
574
Location
California
Resorts Owned
Hyatt Highlands Inn, Hyatt Pinon Pointe
For those hoping HGVC is eventually sold to Marriott or II (which is also owned by Marriott), be careful what you wish for. We Hyatt owners are feeling the full effect of Marriott ownership this year after absorbing huge MF increases in 2020, ranging from a minimum of 8% up to as much as 40% over 2019 rates, when Hyatt was still owned by Hyatt. And we're pretty sure Marriott is not done yet, as they determine how to integrate the Hyatt brand in their massive portfolio, which includes Marriott, Vistana (Westin and Sheraton brands), Hyatt, and Interval International. In their calculus, I believe they determined that Hyatt's overall MF structure was lower than the market would bear and saw it as an immediate opportunity to increase cash flow and reduce debt. Of course, the real effect is to reduce resale values and, indirectly, to hammer the resale market--something Marriott cries no tears over, but which substantially affects those of us who are resale owners and potential buyers and sellers.

As a former HGVC owner, I always thought the HGVC and (former) Hyatt systems were far and away the most flexible systems out there, with MF's that were reasonable, providing excellent value to all owners, including resale owners. But that window has closed on Hyatt and may very well close on HGVC as well once a sale is completed.
 

amy241

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2017
Messages
450
Reaction score
225
Points
154
Resorts Owned
HGVC Sanibel Cottages (Affiliate)
Marriott Ko ‘Olina
My suggestion: If you care about this and have thinking similar to Hilton, I suggest you send an email to reinforce their fears. Let them know that HGVC managed by Wyndham or Diamond will irreparably damage your view of the Hilton brand and that you'll consider leaving both Hilton and HGVC if something like this were to occur. I guarantee you Wyndham and Diamond are pulling out every trick in the book to make Hilton feel ok about this...and we should be making sure Hilton knows this matters to owners. You can send an email to the CEO's office (of course he won't be reading these, but they are more likely to get to the right hands) at christopher.nassetta@hilton.com with cc to ir@hilton.com.

I understand there may be some who think it might not be so bad being merged into Wyndham or Diamond, but I for one am not interested in becoming part of those behemoths.

I sent an email to them voicing my concerns as an owner in HGVC.
 

nuwermj

TUG Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
615
Reaction score
302
Points
273
Location
Potsdam, NY
..., I thought Wyndham would benefit greatly from the system and brand. More so than Diamond, IMHO. Wyndham as a need for the high end timeshare to keep up with Marriott and HGVC, as long as they kept the Hilton branding, would fill that void spectacularly. The biggest issue is keeping the Hilton brand as it brings in different clientele then their regular hotels.

I'm having difficulty imagining how Wyndham Destinations could finance a merger with HGV. If Apollo wins the bid they will use a leveraged buyout and take HGV private. They will then merge HGV and Diamond, then, sometime down the road, sell equity shares in that new entity. The current HGV owners will get cash for their current undervalued shares. Wyndham can't pay cash to buy out HGV share holders. That would require taking on far too much debt.

Alternatively, Wyndham could follow Marriott's model for buying ILG, that is, merge the two companies. But, under this model, the current HGV share holders will simply exchange their current shares for shares in the new company. It doesn't appear that those shares would be as valuable as the cash Apollo can pay. How would a merger boost the value of the combined company enough to pay off the current HGV share holders? It is, after all, these share holders, mostly institutional money, which forced HGV to consider "strategic alternatives."

What am I missing? Who could Wyndham Destinations finance a merger and satisfy its current owners?
 
Last edited:

Nomad420

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2017
Messages
388
Reaction score
99
Points
138
Resorts Owned
HGVC New York Mid Town
I sent an email to them voicing my concerns as an owner in HGVC.
Want to get a letter out soon as well. Many concerns when I heard about this potential sale on national news the other day. How will they handle selling the Hilton name such entities as let's say Wyndam when some of there properties are actually located in HILTON hotels (ie. NYC)???!!! I purchased just prior to HGVC going public and when that news broke I felt a bit ripped off as nothing was told to me during the purchase and now this news. Not a happy Hilton camper right now.
 

dayooper

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Messages
3,945
Reaction score
3,402
Points
349
Location
The Land of Ice and Snow
Resorts Owned
HGVC: The Flamingo, The Boulevard
I'm having difficulty imagining how Wyndham Destinations could finance a merger with HGV. If Apollo wins the bid they will use a leveraged buyout and take HGV private. They will then merge HGV and Diamond, then, sometime down the road, sell equity shares in that new entity. The current HGV owners will get cash for their current undervalued shares. Wyndham can't pay cash to buy out HGV share holders. That would require taking on far too much debt.

Alternatively, Wyndham could follow Marriott's model for buying ILG, that is, merge the two companies. But, under this model, the current HGV share holders will simply exchange their current shares for shares in the new company. It doesn't appear that those shares would be as valuable as the cash Apollo can pay. How would a merger boost the value of the combined company enough to pay off the current HGV share holders? It is, after all, these share holders, mostly institutional money, which forced HGV to consider "strategic alternatives."

What am I missing? Who could Wyndham Destinations finance a merger and satisfy its current owners?

The missing piece is The Hilton Brand licensing. HGVC is worth much less without the Hilton brand licensing. My guess is that's the reason why Apollo was looking at HGVC in the first place. The article states that Hilton is worried about it's Brand image being associated with Diamond and/or Wyndham. HGVC has no control over what Hilton does with it's brand. If Hilton doesn't allow the brand to transfer to the new owner, the value of the company decreases dramatically. Whether it's warranted or not Diamond's image is not very good. If Hilton thinks that Diamond, or even an association with Diamond would damage the Hilton Hotel image (something the linked article alludes to), the value of HGVC to Diamond (or Wyndham Destinations for that matter) could/would drop to a point where it might not be worth the cost. If they think Wyndham Destinations would not tarnish the image of Hilton, they could allow the brand license to transfer. If they thought Diamond would, they could pull the licensing and the value of the company to Apollo would drop.
 

nuwermj

TUG Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
615
Reaction score
302
Points
273
Location
Potsdam, NY
The missing piece is The Hilton Brand licensing.

I'm not seeing how Hilton's brand license answers my question. I'm suggesting that Wyndham Destinations cannot afford HGV. My question is how can WYND finance a merger and satisfy HGV share holders.
 

amy241

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2017
Messages
450
Reaction score
225
Points
154
Resorts Owned
HGVC Sanibel Cottages (Affiliate)
Marriott Ko ‘Olina
I received this response to my email to Hilton:


Thank you for your email of yesterday to our Chief Executive, Chris Nassetta, expressing your concern regarding recent news articles about the possible sale of Hilton Grand Vacations. A few minutes ago, I left a voicemail for you.

In 2017, Hilton divested its stake in Hilton Grand Vacations. Since then, the company has had independent owners and management. Nevertheless, we value the input from Hilton’s guests as discussions proceed to determine whether HGVs name will remain unchanged if the current owners of the company sell it.

With best regards,


David Ryan
Executive Customer Relations

servlet.ImageServer
 

Nomad420

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2017
Messages
388
Reaction score
99
Points
138
Resorts Owned
HGVC New York Mid Town
I received this response to my email to Hilton:


Thank you for your email of yesterday to our Chief Executive, Chris Nassetta, expressing your concern regarding recent news articles about the possible sale of Hilton Grand Vacations. A few minutes ago, I left a voicemail for you.

In 2017, Hilton divested its stake in Hilton Grand Vacations. Since then, the company has had independent owners and management. Nevertheless, we value the input from Hilton’s guests as discussions proceed to determine whether HGVs name will remain unchanged if the current owners of the company sell it.

With best regards,


David Ryan
Executive Customer Relations

servlet.ImageServer
Starting to feel a bit of a bate and switch deal here. I again am concerned as what will happen to properties that actually in Hilton Hotels. What about our contracted Hilton Honors points transfer agreement? How about the many affiliated properties that many owners now use? So many questions left unanswered here but thank you for posting this reply.
 

amy241

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2017
Messages
450
Reaction score
225
Points
154
Resorts Owned
HGVC Sanibel Cottages (Affiliate)
Marriott Ko ‘Olina
Starting to feel a bit of a bate and switch deal here. I again am concerned as what will happen to properties that actually in Hilton Hotels. What about our contracted Hilton Honors points transfer agreement? How about the many affiliated properties that many owners now use? So many questions left unanswered here but thank you for posting this reply.

I feel like if they pull the Hilton brand from our timeshare program the program will suffer as a result. It will not trade as well in II, value of weeks will experience price drops, etc. I wasn’t even aware Hilton no longer owned HGVC until I read this email.
 

CalGalTraveler

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Messages
9,749
Reaction score
8,274
Points
498
Location
California
Resorts Owned
HGVC, MVC Vistana
There have been other threads on this. IMO...the deal will fall apart if the buyer is not able to use the Hilton name or get the lead flow from Hilton. Why would Diamond want more no-name timeshare properties? - they've already got plenty. More unbranded properties only adds to their risk burden for ROI because the deal value resides in the Hilton brand license.

Wyndham may have a more strategic need to develop a high-end offering to compete with MVC. However, as @nuwermj pointed out, making this financially feasible and palatable to Hilton HTL are large hurdles. An advantage of Wyndham is that Hilton would force them to firewall the Hilton brand from the Wyndham brands so things would run similar to today.

But why would Wyndham consider if they cannot easily cross-sell and leverage? Not to mention the awkwardness of hosting Wyndham/ex-HGV properties on Hilton resorts.
 
Last edited:

dayooper

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Messages
3,945
Reaction score
3,402
Points
349
Location
The Land of Ice and Snow
Resorts Owned
HGVC: The Flamingo, The Boulevard
I'm not seeing how Hilton's brand license answers my question. I'm suggesting that Wyndham Destinations cannot afford HGV. My question is how can WYND finance a merger and satisfy HGV share holders.

Since I’m not a finance person, I really don’t know and, quite frankly, don’t care. It’s not my job to figure that out. I don’t know the inner workings of Wyndham’s finances. My guess is the only people that can answer that question are those involved. While I have appreciated your input on the potential merger, I am not enjoying this particular aspect of the discussion. I always try to reply to those that ask questions as it’s the polite thing to do, even if it’s something I really don’t want to talk about.

I’m of the thought process that I want things to stay the same. If they are sold, I want to be as far away from Apollo and Diamond as possible. So, let me stay in my happy place where HGVC is HGVC and not Diamond until I have to deal with it.
 

Nomad420

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2017
Messages
388
Reaction score
99
Points
138
Resorts Owned
HGVC New York Mid Town
I’m of the thought process that I want things to stay the same. If they are sold, I want to be as far away from Apollo and Diamond as possible. So, let me stay in my happy place where HGVC is HGVC and not Diamond until I have to deal with it.
LOL, feel somewhat the same but thank to all who have responded. It is one of the more interesting and somewhat disconcerting threads now here on the HGVC forum.
 

brp

TUG Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
3,938
Reaction score
2,193
Points
598
Location
Bay Area, CA
I’m of the thought process that I want things to stay the same. If they are sold, I want to be as far away from Apollo and Diamond as possible. So, let me stay in my happy place where HGVC is HGVC and not Diamond until I have to deal with it.

And the reality is that, even if something happens, we'll have quite some time before anything actually changes, so a bunch of time to be moved out of our happy places and into the Real World. No need to jump out any sooner than needed.

We have 3 NYC and one upcoming KOA trip for this year, and I expect that these will still be my HGVC for those trips.

Cheers.
 

HitchHiker71

Moderator
Joined
Jun 29, 2018
Messages
4,172
Reaction score
3,696
Points
549
Location
The First State
Resorts Owned
Outer Banks Beach Club I (PIC Plus)
Colonies at Williamsburg (PIC Plus)
CWA VIP Gold (718k EY)
National Harbor Resale (689k)
And the reality is that, even if something happens, we'll have quite some time before anything actually changes, so a bunch of time to be moved out of our happy places and into the Real World. No need to jump out any sooner than needed.

We have 3 NYC and one upcoming KOA trip for this year, and I expect that these will still be my HGVC for those trips.

Cheers.

This would especially be the case if Wyndham is chosen. It has been many years since Wyndham acquired Worldmark, 2006 if memory serves - and there really is little to no integration in existence between Club Wyndham and Worldmark from a timesharing standpoint apart from Club Pass, and there is still zero website inventory search and cross system reservation integration supported to this day. You have to call into Wyndham if you are a Club Wyndham owner to “see” if there’s any available Worldmark inventory and it costs $99 per reservation when you actually book a vacation across the two systems. So 14 years and counting with no systems integration. If HGVC were to be acquired, it’s a pretty safe bet it would be left alone for the foreseeable future, at least based upon past Wyndham performance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

Panina

TUG Review Crew: Elite
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
6,781
Reaction score
9,968
Points
499
Location
Florida
Resorts Owned
Hgvc Anderson, Blue Ride Village Resort
I own all at Florida affiliates except the July 4th Anderson, so it won’t sting as much if it happens. I can lose money at Anderson but should be able to dispose of it because of location and week. Meanwhile just waiting to see what happens. I was thinking last year to sell but now realize those 8400 points for the mf I pay is great. In Captiva now using some of those points. I do believe HGVC has minimal value if the Hilton name can’t be used and believe (hoping) it will all work out.
 

ocdb8r

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
1,543
Reaction score
754
Points
473
Starting to feel a bit of a bate and switch deal here. I again am concerned as what will happen to properties that actually in Hilton Hotels. What about our contracted Hilton Honors points transfer agreement? How about the many affiliated properties that many owners now use? So many questions left unanswered here but thank you for posting this reply.

First - don't panic. All indications point to the fact that those looking to scoop up HGVC are interested in maintaining the Hilton brand and associated benefits. There's no reason that another timeshare developer can't own the HGVC portfolio and maintain the status quo (just as Marriott has with the Hyatt Residence Club portfolio) EXCEPT that Hilton must agree to such an arrangement.

Second - nothing will happen to properties actually in or co-located with Hilton Hotels. While they are "co-located" the HGVC rooms are actually separately owned. This has happened to many other locations in the past (St. Regis left the Starwood system, where the Westin Princeville timeshare was co-located...the Four Seasons left Carlsbad while the co-located timeshare remained Four Seasons...and most pertinent, Westgate developed and sold a chunk of the now "Elara" in Las Vegas which Hilton then bought - they continue to own their units in that building). Yes, it's a bit of a bummer but technically what you own will not change.

Finally - don't ever let yourself believe that "points transfer" is a deeded right. It can be pulled or modified whenever HGVC or new owners feel like.

This would especially be the case if Wyndham is chosen. It has been many years since Wyndham acquired Worldmark, 2006 if memory serves - and there really is little to no integration in existence between Club Wyndham and Worldmark from a timesharing standpoint apart from Club Pass, and there is still zero website inventory search and cross system reservation integration supported to this day. You have to call into Wyndham if you are a Club Wyndham owner to “see” if there’s any available Worldmark inventory and it costs $99 per reservation when you actually book a vacation across the two systems. So 14 years and counting with no systems integration. If HGVC were to be acquired, it’s a pretty safe bet it would be left alone for the foreseeable future, at least based upon past Wyndham performance.

Don't be so confident that "integration" of the systems should be your only/main concern. While there is little integration between Worldmark and Wyndham, there have been PLENTY of changes. Wyndham has done everything possible to bleed as much money as possible out of Worldmark owners, drastically changed the points schedules at new resorts (admittedly, nothing new on HGVC) and has done plenty to marginalize Worldmark. You also have to remember that Worldmark was the FIRST pure points based system and the contractual arrangements in place made it VERY hard for Wyndham to do their worst. Only after several lawsuits by Worldmark owners against Wyndham was it left to remain a standalone system. Integration is the least of my concerns.

Since I’m not a finance person, I really don’t know and, quite frankly, don’t care. It’s not my job to figure that out. I don’t know the inner workings of Wyndham’s finances. My guess is the only people that can answer that question are those involved. While I have appreciated your input on the potential merger, I am not enjoying this particular aspect of the discussion. I always try to reply to those that ask questions as it’s the polite thing to do, even if it’s something I really don’t want to talk about.

I also don't understand the premise of the question. The assertion was made that "Wyndham can't pay cash to buy out HGV share holders. That would require taking on far too much debt." Why not? What is "too much" debt? Too much for who? Debt financing has never been at lower rates for such a sustained period of time. There are PLENTY of lenders out there happy to load Wyndham up on debt (just as much as they would whatever vehicle Apollo created for a leveraged buy-out). If the market values the assets being purchased with the debt, the only question remains whether they trust the management team to manage the assets in a way to create sufficient cash flow to service the debt. I see no reason why Wyndham would be viewed any worse that Apollo/Diamond from that perspective. Finally, you assume only an all-cash deal is attractive to shareholders. They may be quite happy to take a cash+share offer that cashes them out some and keeps some exposure to the market with shares in the new entity. Bottom line, Wyndham's name wouldn't even be in the mix if they hadn't submitted some sort of credible offer (backed up with whatever finance commitments required).
 
Last edited:

Nomad420

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2017
Messages
388
Reaction score
99
Points
138
Resorts Owned
HGVC New York Mid Town
Second - nothing will happen to properties actually in or co-located with Hilton Hotels. While they are "co-located" the HGVC rooms are actually separately owned. This has happened to many other locations in the past (St. Regis left the Starwood system, where the Westin Princeville timeshare was co-located...the Four Seasons left Carlsbad while the co-located timeshare remained Four Seasons...and most pertinent, Westgate developed and sold a chunk of the now "Elara" in Las Vegas which Hilton then bought - they continue to own their units in that building). Yes, it's a bit of a bummer but technically what you own will not change.

Finally - don't ever let yourself believe that "points transfer" is a deeded right. It can be pulled or modified whenever HGVC or new owners feel like.
The example of the Carlsbad Four Seasons timeshare is not exactly comforting. Since Four Seasons left the property, at least from my perspective, has to say the least suffered.
Secondly, while I know it is not a "deeded right" the points transfer is in my contract and is quite specific. If that is lost it would indeed affect my property value as it is would be a lost benefit and would be open to litigation. This would not be the first time I was involved in a class action law suite for just this type of action (similar but had more to do with fees not "points").
 

brp

TUG Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
3,938
Reaction score
2,193
Points
598
Location
Bay Area, CA
Secondly, while I know it is not a "deeded right" the points transfer is in my contract and is quite specific. If that is lost it would indeed affect my property value as it is would be a lost benefit and would be open to litigation. This would not be the first time I was involved in a class action law suite for just this type of action (similar but had more to do with fees not "points").

I understand your concerns, in general. But I think that the points transfer option should be the least of our worries given the loss of HGVC point value in doing this. At present, I'm sure that HGVC are very happy to let owners do this as it is a lower-valued use of the points. IMO, taking away this option increases the value of the deed, but that's just me :)

Cheers.
 

dayooper

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Messages
3,945
Reaction score
3,402
Points
349
Location
The Land of Ice and Snow
Resorts Owned
HGVC: The Flamingo, The Boulevard
I understand your concerns, in general. But I think that the points transfer option should be the least of our worries given the loss of HGVC point value in doing this. At present, I'm sure that HGVC are very happy to let owners do this as it is a lower-valued use of the points. IMO, taking away this option increases the value of the deed, but that's just me :)

Cheers.

Is @Nomad420 talking about the club points or the HH conversion? I thought he was talking about club points
 

brp

TUG Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
3,938
Reaction score
2,193
Points
598
Location
Bay Area, CA
Is @Nomad420 talking about the club points or the HH conversion? I thought he was talking about club points

The original post about this up above said "Hilton Honors points transfer," so I figured it was HH. Club points would definitely be a big deal.

Cheers.
 

dayooper

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Messages
3,945
Reaction score
3,402
Points
349
Location
The Land of Ice and Snow
Resorts Owned
HGVC: The Flamingo, The Boulevard
The original post about this up above said "Hilton Honors points transfer," so I figured it was HH. Club points would definitely be a big deal.

Cheers.

Yup, I see it now. Thanks!
 

Talent312

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
17,464
Reaction score
7,277
Points
948
Resorts Owned
HGVC & GTS
If Hilton declines to allow the new buyer to access its name and Hilton Honors:
Could not the buyer simply rebrand the product -- "Halitosis Grand Vacations?"
The rules say that all or any part of "the club" may be changed or discontinued.

Whatever anyone's contract may say. I suspect there's some clause in there
which incorporates this condition.
.
 

brp

TUG Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
3,938
Reaction score
2,193
Points
598
Location
Bay Area, CA
If Hilton declines to allow the new buyer to access its name and Hilton Honors:
Could not the buyer simply rebrand the product -- "Halitosis Grand Vacations?"
The rules say that all or any part of "the club" may be changed or discontinued.

Whatever anyone's contract may say. I suspect there's some clause in there
which incorporates this condition.
.

They surely could. The argument being made here, and I agree, is that the Hilton name and the association with Hilton brings very much value to HGVC to the point where, without that, it may not be worth what they're paying to purchase it.

Cheers.
 
Top