For VSN Members, there is no Abound opt in and limited opt out

[dioxide45]

Wow so buying WKV may require a VSN enrollment fee in the future. Would that not depreciate those resales If you have to pay a fee to be a member of something you are suppose to be in?

I would expect every resale to take a $3000 hit. People want to pay the same amount of money, it is just different people that get it in the end.

 

[dioxide45]

Do we have confirmation that they will try to charge an enrollment fee to the mandatory resale post 8/9? If they try to do that they will be challenged big time. It seems you take Marriott's side without having all the facts.

We don't know, because the fee doesn't start till 2023. It is certainly at their discretion to charge the fee or waive it. I can't speak to the legality of the fee.

 

[timsi]

We don't know, because the fee doesn't start till 2023. It is certainly at their discretion to charge the fee or waive it. I can't speak to the legality of the fee.

I do not think it is at their discretion. Automatically enrolled means they have to enroll it without conditions, otherwise it is not automatic.

 

[dioxide45]

I do not think it is at their discretion. Automatically enrolled means they have to enroll it without conditions, otherwise it is not automatic.

I think the wording in the disclosure is that you have limited access to the benefits until the enrollment fee is paid. Similar to how it works with Trust Points on the MVC side and their $3pp enrollment fee.

 

[Eric B]

We don't know, because the fee doesn't start till 2023. It is certainly at their discretion to charge the fee or waive it. I can't speak to the legality of the fee.

IMHO, the fee doesn't seem all that much different from the resort transfer fees charged by most timeshare resorts for updating their records and would very likely be considered just as legal as those are.

I would expect every resale to take a $3000 hit. People want to pay the same amount of money, it is just different people that get it in the end.

The $3,000 fee is for enrollment/re-instatement in Abound; there is a different fee ($599) listed for mandatory members opting out of Abound. That being said, I don't think the dust has settled on transfer costs, though - resale mandatory VOIs aren't supposed to be eligible for enrollment in Abound if they were bought after August 8, 2022, so they would not be subject to the $3,000 fee, but maybe the $599 fee or no fee at all if they are already existing Network Members under the VSN Disclosure Guide section quoted earlier that says "...an enrollment fee shall not be required to be paid if the New Network Member is an existing Network Member...."

This is what the VSN Disclosure Guide for Mandatory Members indicates when it comes to transfers and the enrollment fee;

8.4 Effect of Transfer of Network Member’s VOI. Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties to a sale, assignment, or transfer, if a Network Member (“Selling Network Member”) sells, assigns, or transfers the Selling Network’s VOI to another party (“New Network Member”), the Selling Network Member will lose any and all rights to utilize the StarOptions associated with such VOI, including but not limited to the right to reserve a Vacation Period or to use any previously-reserved Vacation Period. Each New Network Member will be required to remit to the Network Operator an enrollment fee; provided, however, an enrollment fee shall not be required to be paid if the New Network Member is an existing Network Member or a Family Member of the Selling Network Member. Until payment of the enrollment fee is received (or waived by Network Operator), Network Operator may restrict the purchaser of such VOI(s) from accessing the benefits of the Network. The current enrollment fee is referenced in the Network Fees Chart. Network Operator reserves the right to adjust the amount of the enrollment fee from time to time and to waive the enrollment fee on a case-by-case basis in Network Operator’s sole discretion.

 

[timsi]

I think the wording in the disclosure is that you have limited access to the benefits until the enrollment fee is paid. Similar to how it works with Trust Points on the MVC side and their $3pp enrollment fee.

I would see it as an abuse. I do not see in the original deeds that you are a member without rights and this goes against the idea of being a member. It is one thing to say the post 8/9 cannot participate in Abound (even that has not been challenged yet), another thing to say you are automatically a member, you have to pay the annual membership fees but you can't use the membership.
"III. Membership in the Network
A purchaser of a Vacation Ownership Interest in a Club Resort automatically is enrolled in the Network as a
Network Member at the time that the Network Member acquires the Network Member's Vacation Ownership
Interest. There is no Network contract separate and distinct from the purchaser's contract with the developer of the
vacation ownership plan at a Club Resort, and the terms of such membership are as set forth in the Club Documents
and Network Documents. Membership in the Network is granted to all purchasers of Club Resort Vacation
Ownership Interests."

 

[dioxide45]

The $3,000 fee is for enrollment/re-instatement in Abound;

The wording on the fee is somewhat ambiguous.

It does indicate the fee chart above is "For Mandatory Members participating in the Network and the Abound Exchange Program". So it is quite possible that the fee is only for access to Abound, but if Abound resales on and after 8/9/2023 are excluded, why have the wording there at all? Is it possible they will allow mandatory resales to enroll in Abound as long as they pay the fee?

 

[Eric B]

The wording on the fee is somewhat ambiguous.

View attachment 70769

It does indicate the fee chart above is "For Mandatory Members participating in the Network and the Abound Exchange Program". So it is quite possible that the fee is only for access to Abound, but if Abound resales on and after 8/9/2023 are excluded, why have the wording there at all? Is it possible they will allow mandatory resales to enroll in Abound as long as they pay the fee?

I completely agree with you except for the "somewhat" part - it's just plain ambiguous. It's also weird that they set things up in section 8.4 to exempt existing Network Members from paying enrollment fees. Setting it up that way basically means that I could buy a mandatory resale VOI without having to pay an enrollment fee because I'm a Network Member based on having other VOIs, but an ordinary purchaser that doesn't have any Vistana VOIs would have to pay one - the net result would be limiting the market for resale mandatory VOIs to some extent.

All in all, it strikes me as being fairly inartful drafting of the document more than anything else. The real problem is that this will drive a need for FAQs on the various subjects unless they clarify how things work for resales by revising the document. The other option is for someone to take them to arbitration under section 8.14 to find out how things work. There's a $250 limit on costs to an Owner initiating arbitration with the Network Operator paying the rest - I'd kick in $50 or so if someone like @CPNY that has post-8/9/2022 mandatory resale VOIS wants to challenge them on the transfer rules eliminating Abound eligibility under the rules as they've been released since there is no mention of that threshold date. There's a decent argument to be made that he shouldn't have to pay an enrollment fee for them since he's an existing Network Member.

 

[dioxide45]

I completely agree with you except for the "somewhat" part - it's just plain ambiguous. It's also weird that they set things up in section 8.4 to exempt existing Network Members from paying enrollment fees. Setting it up that way basically means that I could buy a mandatory resale VOI without having to pay an enrollment fee because I'm a Network Member based on having other VOIs, but an ordinary purchaser that doesn't have any Vistana VOIs would have to pay one - the net result would be limiting the market for resale mandatory VOIs to some extent.

All in all, it strikes me as being fairly inartful drafting of the document more than anything else. The real problem is that this will drive a need for FAQs on the various subjects unless they clarify how things work for resales by revising the document. The other option is for someone to take them to arbitration under section 8.14 to find out how things work. There's a $250 limit on costs to an Owner initiating arbitration with the Network Operator paying the rest - I'd kick in $50 or so if someone like @CPNY that has post-8/9/2022 mandatory resale VOIS wants to challenge them on the transfer rules eliminating Abound eligibility under the rules as they've been released since there is no mention of that threshold date. There's a decent argument to be made that he shouldn't have to pay an enrollment fee for them since he's an existing Network Member.

I also think the working about existing network members may have inteded to be limited to that VOI. Marriott has similar wording on the transfer of deeded MVC weeks and their ability to enroll in Abound. If you are just transferring from your spouse and yourself to yourself (divorde), you don't lose the ability to be in Abound. The same for transfering to childrend/family members. It seems the were a little sloppy here or they intend to make it easier so existing members don't pay the fee when buying an entirely new VOI. But why, what is the fee for? Enrollment in VSN or access to Abound.

As for those post 8/8 mandatory resales, it seems that perhaps there is a grace period here? The fee doesn't go in to effect until 1/1/2023, so any purchase between 8/8 and 1/1 should be exempt anyway.

 

[Eric B]

I also think the working about existing network members may have inteded to be limited to that VOI. Marriott has similar wording on the transfer of deeded MVC weeks and their ability to enroll in Abound. If you are just transferring from your spouse and yourself to yourself (divorde), you don't lose the ability to be in Abound. The same for transfering to childrend/family members. It seems the were a little sloppy here or they intend to make it easier so existing members don't pay the fee when buying an entirely new VOI. But why, what is the fee for? Enrollment in VSN or access to Abound.

As for those post 8/8 mandatory resales, it seems that perhaps there is a grace period here? The fee doesn't go in to effect until 1/1/2023, so any purchase between 8/8 and 1/1 should be exempt anyway.

If they just wanted to preserve Abound rights for events like divorce or death eliminating a joint owner there would be simpler and more straightforward ways to do it. They have the defined term "Owner" that means the owner of a VOI that would be a much better way to discuss it, perhaps as "... an enrollment fee shall not be required to be paid if the New Network Member is an existing Owner of the VOI ...." The fundamental problem with the way they drafted it is that there is no limitation to the term "existing Network Member" with reference to the VOI being transferred and an arbitrator should resolve the ambiguities in favor of the non-drafting party if it were taken to arbitration.

They might be able to fix it in an FAQ, but it's not really in their interest to provide FAQs on how resale works.

 

[Red elephant]

We don't know, because the fee doesn't start till 2023. It is certainly at their discretion to charge the fee or waive it. I can't speak to the legality of the fee.

So if I buy WKV now then I may not be charged for enrollment not that I need it as I am purchasing to stay there.

 

[Red elephant]

IMHO, the fee doesn't seem all that much different from the resort transfer fees charged by most timeshare resorts for updating their records and would very likely be considered just as legal as those are.

The $3,000 fee is for enrollment/re-instatement in Abound; there is a different fee ($599) listed for mandatory members opting out of Abound. That being said, I don't think the dust has settled on transfer costs, though - resale mandatory VOIs aren't supposed to be eligible for enrollment in Abound if they were bought after August 8, 2022, so they would not be subject to the $3,000 fee, but maybe the $599 fee or no fee at all if they are already existing Network Members under the VSN Disclosure Guide section quoted earlier that says "...an enrollment fee shall not be required to be paid if the New Network Member is an existing Network Member...."

Wait so you have to pay $599 to opt out of Abound? This is for resale purchased before 8/9 right?

 

[dioxide45]

Wait so you have to pay $599 to opt out of Abound? This is for resale purchased before 8/9 right?

No, the $599 fee is to be able to re-ernoll in Abound IF you Opt Out. You must also purchase an additional VOI direct.

 

[Eric B]

No, the $599 fee is to be able to re-ernoll in Abound IF you Opt Out. You must also purchase an additional VOI direct.

View attachment 70770

This is another example of the incredibly poor drafting of the disclosure guide. The term "Network" is specifically defined in it to mean "the Vistana Signature Network, the service name given to the variety of exchange and reservation services and vacation and travel benefits currently offered and the restrictions currently imposed by Network Operator for Network Resorts. The Network is an exchange program offered by Network Operator, an exchange company. Network Members reserve the use of the Units through the Network, which may or may not include access to an External Exchange Program, as set forth in the applicable Network Documents. The Network is not a legal entity or association of any kind. Note that the Network was formerly known as Starwood Vacation Network and may be referred to by such former name in various documents and agreements. Also note that the Network was formerly known by the acronym SVN and may be referred to by such former acronym in various documents and agreements." (Emphasis added; see unnumbered pages 12 and 13 of the disclosure guide.)

The Abound Exchange Program is one of the two External Exchange Programs covered under section V of the disclosure guide on pages 25 and 26.

Footnote 7 to the Club Dues Chart seems to describe the process for re-enrolling a voluntary (non-Club Resort) VOI into the Network and can't apply to a mandatory (Club Resort) VOI because they can't be disenrolled. That same footnote shows up in the disclosure guide for voluntary members on the "Chart for Vistana Signature Network Fees - (Revised 06-01-2021)". The term "enrollment" is not a defined term, but is used in the first sentence of section 2.1 of the voluntary disclosure guide, which reads, "To use and enjoy benefits of membership in the Network, a VOI purchaser must be enrolled by Network Operator, which will require the execution of an Owner Membership Agreement and the payment of any applicable fee, as determined by Network Operator." (Emphasis added.)

 

[CPNY]

I completely agree with you except for the "somewhat" part - it's just plain ambiguous. It's also weird that they set things up in section 8.4 to exempt existing Network Members from paying enrollment fees. Setting it up that way basically means that I could buy a mandatory resale VOI without having to pay an enrollment fee because I'm a Network Member based on having other VOIs, but an ordinary purchaser that doesn't have any Vistana VOIs would have to pay one - the net result would be limiting the market for resale mandatory VOIs to some extent.

All in all, it strikes me as being fairly inartful drafting of the document more than anything else. The real problem is that this will drive a need for FAQs on the various subjects unless they clarify how things work for resales by revising the document. The other option is for someone to take them to arbitration under section 8.14 to find out how things work. There's a $250 limit on costs to an Owner initiating arbitration with the Network Operator paying the rest - I'd kick in $50 or so if someone like @CPNY that has post-8/9/2022 mandatory resale VOIS wants to challenge them on the transfer rules eliminating Abound eligibility under the rules as they've been released since there is no mention of that threshold date. There's a decent argument to be made that he shouldn't have to pay an enrollment fee for them since he's an existing Network Member.

I’m down if you want to point me in the right direction. I’m all in since I went into contract with a broker and paid for my resale on 8/3, the deed was signed 8/9 but recorded and sent to vistana on 8/19. If it’s not in abound, oh well, that’s life. But I cannot see paying an additional 270 club dues or even the 170 VSN fee. That is ridiculous.

 

[CPNY]

No, the $599 fee is to be able to re-ernoll in Abound IF you Opt Out. You must also purchase an additional VOI direct.

View attachment 70770

I think This is if you have a unit post 8/9 or an unenrolled voluntary VOI that you want to bring into the system. On the back of my MF statement it says that if you opt out and want to opt back in to take advantage of club dues in 2024 and beyond you will have to pay an enrollment fee of 595. It does not say anything about an additional purchase.

 

[Eric B]

I’m down if you want to point me in the right direction. I’m all in since I went into contract with a broker and paid for my resale on 8/3, the deed was signed 8/9 but recorded and sent to vistana on 8/19. If it’s not in abound, oh well, that’s life. But I cannot see paying an additional 270 club dues or even the 170 VSN fee. That is ridiculous.

Here's what the disclosure guide says about arbitration:

8.14 Arbitration. Any dispute, controversy or claim (“Claim”) between Owner and Network Operator, whether preexisting, present or future, arising from or relating to the Network Rules, Owner’s VOI, the Resort or the Condominium shall, at the election of either party, be arbitrated on an individual basis before JAMS (www.jamsadr.com, 1-800-352-5267) pursuant to its Streamlined Rules. If JAMS cannot serve and the parties cannot agree on a substitute, a court with jurisdiction will select the arbitrator. The Federal Arbitration Act (“FAA”), 9 U.S.C. § 1, et seq., shall govern the interpretation and enforcement of this Section. A single neutral arbitrator shall be appointed. The arbitrator shall follow applicable substantive law consistent with the FAA, apply applicable statutes of limitations, honor valid claims of privilege, and issue a written reasoned decision which will be final and binding except for any review under the FAA. The arbitrator may award all remedies that would apply in an individual court action (subject to constitutional limits that would apply in court). Any in-person hearing will be held in Orange County, Florida unless otherwise agreed. If Owner initiates an individual arbitration, Network Operator will pay all administrative and arbitrator fees exceeding $250. Solely for purposes of this Provision, “Network Operator” also means Network Operator’s parent companies, subsidiaries and affiliates; Network Operator’s and their employees, officers and directors; and any other person or entity named as a defendant or respondent in a Claim by Owner against Network Operator. “Owner” also means Owner’s heirs, successors and assigns and any other person or entity to which a VOI is subsequently resold or otherwise conveyed.

“Claim” shall be broadly construed and includes, without limitation, disputes concerning: purchase, financing, ownership or occupancy; breach, termination, cancellation or default; condition of the property; the Vistana Signature Network or other exchange programs; Owner’s VOI, the Resort or the Condominium; reservations, points or rewards programs; applications and personal information; marketing or sales solicitations, representations, advertisements, promotions or disclosures; and collection of delinquent amounts and the manner of collection. “Claim” includes disputes based upon contract, tort, consumer rights, fraud and other intentional torts, constitution, statute, Uniform Commercial Code, regulation, ordinance, common law and equity. “Claim” does not include: (i) disputes about the validity, enforceability, coverage or scope of this Section or any part thereof, which are for a court to decide. But disputes about the validity or enforceability of the Network Rules as a whole are for the arbitrator to decide; or (ii) any individual action by Owner in small claims or an equivalent court, unless that action is transferred, removed or appealed to a different court.

It would probably be worth complaining directly to Owner Advocacy first in writing and getting an official response - I think a complaint is required by the JAMS Streamlined Rules in any case.

 

[Eric B]

I think This is if you have a unit post 8/9 or an unenrolled voluntary VOI that you want to bring into the system. On the back of my MF statement it says that if you opt out and want to opt back in to take advantage of club dues in 2024 and beyond you will have to pay an enrollment fee of 595. It does not say anything about an additional purchase.

Just took a look and it says the same thing on the back of my MF statements. The interesting thing is that the enrollment fee of $595 referenced there is different than the amount listed in the disclosure guide, which is $599. At least they are consistent in their inconsistency.

 

[CPNY]

Here's what the disclosure guide says about arbitration:

8.14 Arbitration. Any dispute, controversy or claim (“Claim”) between Owner and Network Operator, whether preexisting, present or future, arising from or relating to the Network Rules, Owner’s VOI, the Resort or the Condominium shall, at the election of either party, be arbitrated on an individual basis before JAMS (www.jamsadr.com, 1-800-352-5267) pursuant to its Streamlined Rules. If JAMS cannot serve and the parties cannot agree on a substitute, a court with jurisdiction will select the arbitrator. The Federal Arbitration Act (“FAA”), 9 U.S.C. § 1, et seq., shall govern the interpretation and enforcement of this Section. A single neutral arbitrator shall be appointed. The arbitrator shall follow applicable substantive law consistent with the FAA, apply applicable statutes of limitations, honor valid claims of privilege, and issue a written reasoned decision which will be final and binding except for any review under the FAA. The arbitrator may award all remedies that would apply in an individual court action (subject to constitutional limits that would apply in court). Any in-person hearing will be held in Orange County, Florida unless otherwise agreed. If Owner initiates an individual arbitration, Network Operator will pay all administrative and arbitrator fees exceeding $250. Solely for purposes of this Provision, “Network Operator” also means Network Operator’s parent companies, subsidiaries and affiliates; Network Operator’s and their employees, officers and directors; and any other person or entity named as a defendant or respondent in a Claim by Owner against Network Operator. “Owner” also means Owner’s heirs, successors and assigns and any other person or entity to which a VOI is subsequently resold or otherwise conveyed.

“Claim” shall be broadly construed and includes, without limitation, disputes concerning: purchase, financing, ownership or occupancy; breach, termination, cancellation or default; condition of the property; the Vistana Signature Network or other exchange programs; Owner’s VOI, the Resort or the Condominium; reservations, points or rewards programs; applications and personal information; marketing or sales solicitations, representations, advertisements, promotions or disclosures; and collection of delinquent amounts and the manner of collection. “Claim” includes disputes based upon contract, tort, consumer rights, fraud and other intentional torts, constitution, statute, Uniform Commercial Code, regulation, ordinance, common law and equity. “Claim” does not include: (i) disputes about the validity, enforceability, coverage or scope of this Section or any part thereof, which are for a court to decide. But disputes about the validity or enforceability of the Network Rules as a whole are for the arbitrator to decide; or (ii) any individual action by Owner in small claims or an equivalent court, unless that action is transferred, removed or appealed to a different court.

It would probably be worth complaining directly to Owner Advocacy first in writing and getting an official response - I think a complaint is required by the JAMS Streamlined Rules in any case.

Great, does anyone want to help me with a compelling complaint/case to bring before JAMS and arbitration?

 

[CPNY]

Just took a look and it says the same thing on the back of my MF statements. The interesting thing is that the enrollment fee of $595 referenced there is different than the amount listed in the disclosure guide, which is $599. At least they are consistent in their inconsistency.

That makes me believe that the 595 is for opt-BACK-ins after opt-outs and the 599 is going to be a new “junk” fee on top of an additional developer purchase to retro enrolled voluntary resale and post 8/9 mandatory

 

[Eric B]

Great, does anyone want to help me with a compelling complaint/case to bring before JAMS and arbitration?

Happy to help out; PM me with contact info, etc.

 

[dioxide45]

Footnote 7 to the Club Dues Chart seems to describe the process for re-enrolling a voluntary (non-Club Resort) VOI into the Network and can't apply to a mandatory (Club Resort) VOI because they can't be disenrolled. That same footnote shows up in the disclosure guide for voluntary members on the "Chart for Vistana Signature Network Fees - (Revised 06-01-2021)". The term "enrollment" is not a defined term, but is used in the first sentence of section 2.1 of the voluntary disclosure guide, which reads, "To use and enjoy benefits of membership in the Network, a VOI purchaser must be enrolled by Network Operator, which will require the execution of an Owner Membership Agreement and the payment of any applicable fee, as determined by Network Operator." (Emphasis added.)

I beleive item 7 is referring to if a mandatory owner opts out of Abound. Thus disenrolled. Do you happen to have a copy of the 2023 version of the VSDN Disclosure Guide for Voluntary Owners? I have only been able to find an older version that doesn't include anything related to the changes in 2023.

 

[dioxide45]

That makes me believe that the 595 is for opt-BACK-ins after opt-outs and the 599 is going to be a new “junk” fee on top of an additional developer purchase to retro enrolled voluntary resale and post 8/9 mandatory

There is a discrepancy in the fee here. The MF bill we have indicates the $595 fee where the Disclosure guide indicates $599 under the section for those that opted out of Abound on a mandatory VOI. The MF bill has no mention of having to buy more VOIs along with paying the fee. I would think the Disclosure guide over rules everything and who is going to argue over $4.

From our SVV Mandatory MF Bill.
In the event you opt out and want to later take advantage of the consolidated VSN Membership Fee for 2024 or subsequent years, you will also need to pay an enrollment fee which is currently $595.00 but subject to change from time to time.

 

[DanCali]

Is this new Disclosure Guide available online? Or maybe I missed a link in one of the posts?

 

[dioxide45]

Is this new Disclosure Guide available online? Or maybe I missed a link in one of the posts?

If you own a Mandatory week, it should be online. It was also posted here in another thread. But for Mandatory weeks, login to your account and go to the "Governing Documents" section from the Dashboard. Then click on ASSOCIATION INFORMATION. Then the VSN RULES & REGULATIONS. It should take you to this link. The file name indicates 2015 but it seems to be the newest 2023 version. For Voluntary (in VSN) ownership, I had asked @kozykritter to check, but theirs is still the older version. It also indicates 2015 in the file name.