For VSN Members, there is no Abound opt in and limited opt out

[kozykritter]

The attached FAQ document from the Maintenance Fee page on Vistana's website has finally given me a perspective on how Abound is actually being integrated. Some people are going to be surprised by this.

Note: The following post is only addressing the opt in/opt out subject of the FAQ document and not the information about Club Dues and owning multiple types of VOIs/paying multiple Club Dues, etc. I can't get a handle on how they are going to handle those mixed scenarios yet.

No opt in involved: Abound has been added to all VSN memberships (pre-August 9th) as new feature of being enrolled in the VSN, same as the other automatic features/options like the receiving of StarOptions for internal trading, banking StarOptions, a corporate account for II exchanges, ability to convert to Bonvoy points, etc. Just like the other features of the VSN, each year you can choose to use your ownership towards it or not.

The part that messes many people up in seeing this is the simultaneous replacing of the VSN membership fee with the higher all-fee inclusive Abound Club Dues along with the implementation of Abound owner benefit levels. The reason for them doing this appears to be two-fold:

1) This all-inclusive fee model is how Marriott has run its timeshare system for years, and since Vistana owner elected Club Points will exist and be used for reservations in Marriott's existing reservation system, rules for charging transactional fees has to match the MVC IT structure. Ditto with owner benefit levels since they confer certain reservation access timing rights.

2) Like all acquirers, Marriott is looking for cost savings by consolidating the administration of both programs together, and that means moving towards one integrated IT platform. Using the same transaction fee IT infrastructure is a first step, and likely a huge one given their IT troubles this past year.

Limited Abound opt out: Looking at the document, it appears only a certain class of VOI owners can opt out of Abound specifically. This matches wording in the original general FAQs released in September.

For all ownerships that are voluntarily enrolled in the VSN (all but the mandatory listed below), the only way to eliminate the Abound feature as a choice (or any of the other VSN features you don't want to have available to you) along with the new higher all-inclusive Club Dues is to disenroll from the VSN completely. It is the only option if your goal is to avoid the Club Dues. You would pay no annual membership fee and your ownership then could only be used for reservations at the property/properties your purchased or exchanged in an II account you pay for yourself. To re-enroll, you'd likely have to pay some substantial amount like you do now if you were trying to requalify a voluntary resale.

For mandatory ownerships (WKOR, WKORN, WKV, SVV-Bella & Key West, HRA, WSJ-Virgin Grand & Hillside?), there is no choice to disenroll from the VSN since participation is a contractual requirement of the ownership. Therefore they created (for contractual/legal reasons) the Abound opt out provision for pre-Aug 9th VSN-enrolled mandatory ownerships (i.e. Abound eligible) and the alternate fee structure as a work around to meet VSN enrollment requirements.

If you exercise this opt out for a mandatory ownership described above, your ownership will then pay the fee structure we are familiar with (VSN membership fee, all transaction fees) and you will still have access to all the remaining VSN features. Your elite level in Vistana will still be defined under the new Abound owner benefit levels (the old elite system is gone), and the FAQ says your level will drop to the bottom level of Owner if you opt out...not sure how that part would work if you have other ownerships. You will also lose any grandfathering of owner benefit levels i.e. mapping of former Vistana elite levels to Abound owner benefit levels.

Post August 9th mandatory resales aren't eligible for Abound but they aren't broken out by the FAQs as a specific class of ownership. It appears from the FAQs that they would still be subject to the new higher Club Dues and possibly also have the ability to opt out of the Abound Club Dues (not at all clear) and follow the VSN fee structure. Not sure how these ownerships would work with elite status if they didn't opt out.

While this FAQ helps a little bit for those of us that can dig in and read between the lines, I think the wider ownership is going to be very shocked when they realize that they can't just "opt out" of Abound as so many have been loudly saying they are going to do because they don't like the changes. Vistana/Marriott really needs to go further with its communication in this area so people aren't so lost and ticked off!

 

[dioxide45]

I was wondering why some owners were getting billed the Club Dues fee separately and others were having it included in their maintenance fee bill (like myself). The FAQ seems to explain that. If you own a mandatory resort, it seems the Club Dues will be billed with your maintenance fee bill. If you own only voluntary, then you will be billed separately for the Club Dues. I also think this explains why I can't find this FAQ in the Vistana.com website in our account. We only own two mandatory and thus don't have the billing item for "Club Dues".

 

[kozykritter]

I was wondering why some owners were getting billed the Club Dues fee separately and others were having it included in their maintenance fee bill (like myself). The FAQ seems to explain that. If you own a mandatory resort, it seems the Club Dues will be billed with your maintenance fee bill. If you own only voluntary, then you will be billed separately for the Club Dues. I also think this explains why I can't find this FAQ in the Vistana.com website in our account. We only own two mandatory and thus don't have the billing item for "Club Dues".

I don't have the billing item for Club Dues either and my ownership is all voluntary (Flex) that was billed separately. It's a mystery.

 

[tschwa2]

wouldn't the two of you not have billing for your vistana because you are already paying dues through Marriott?

 

[iowaguy09]

wouldn't the two of you not have billing for your vistana because you are already paying dues through Marriott?

All Flex ownership here. No club dues billed by Vistana; we only received a single bill from MVC for the club dues, and at the correct amount corresponding to our ownership level. Just paid it before Christmas.

 

[dioxide45]

wouldn't the two of you not have billing for your vistana because you are already paying dues through Marriott?

I wasn't, or at least not yet, been billed Club Dues by MVC. They are included on one of our SVV Mandatory Maintenance Fee bills.

Best I can tell.
You only own Vistana voluntary - Club Dues are billed separately and you go to the MVC site to make the payment.
You only own Vistana mandatory - Club Dues are billed with your mandatory ownership.
You own both Vistana mandatory and voluntary (regardless of how you purchased the voluntary) - Club Dues are billed with your mandatory ownership.
You own Vistana mandatory and enrolled MVC weeks - Club Dues are billed with your mandatory ownership.
You own Vistana voluntary and enrolled MVC weeks - Club Dues are billed separately and you go to the MVC site to make the payment.
You own Vistana mandatory and voluntary and enrolled MVC weeks - Club Dues are billed with your mandatory ownership.
You own Vistana mandatory and or voluntary and Abound Trust Points - This one I am not sure about. Not sure if you would be billed the Club Dues with the trust points or with the Vistana mandatory maintenance fees.

 

[kozykritter]

I wasn't, or at least not yet, been billed Club Dues by MVC. They are included on one of our SVV Mandatory Maintenance Fee bills.

Best I can tell.
You only own Vistana voluntary - Club Dues are billed separately and you go to the MVC site to make the payment.
You only own Vistana mandatory - Club Dues are billed with your mandatory ownership.
You own both Vistana mandatory and voluntary (regardless of how you purchased the voluntary) - Club Dues are billed with your mandatory ownership.
You own Vistana mandatory and enrolled MVC weeks - Club Dues are billed with your mandatory ownership.
You own Vistana voluntary and enrolled MVC weeks - Club Dues are billed separately and you go to the MVC site to make the payment.
You own Vistana mandatory and voluntary and enrolled MVC weeks - Club Dues are billed with your mandatory ownership.
You own Vistana mandatory and or voluntary and Abound Trust Points - This one I am not sure about. Not sure if you would be billed the Club Dues with the trust points or with the Vistana mandatory maintenance fees.

I own Vistana voluntary and MVC trust points and was billed (and paid) in my MVC account.

Vistana accidentally sent me a separate bill earlier this month because my two ownerships weren't properly linked at the time they billed so they didn't see the MVC dues billing and payment. Vistana subsequently deleted their invoice after verifying the MVC payment.

 

[dioxide45]

I own Vistana voluntary and MVC trust points and was billed (and paid) in my MVC account.

Vistana accidentally sent me a separate bill earlier this month because my two ownerships weren't properly linked at the time they billed so they didn't see the MVC dues billing and payment. Vistana subsequently deleted their invoice after verifying the MVC payment.

Was the Club Dues you paid billed separately or included with your Trust Points maintenance fee bill?

 

[tschwa2]

I wasn't, or at least not yet, been billed Club Dues by MVC. They are included on one of our SVV Mandatory Maintenance Fee bills.

Best I can tell.
You only own Vistana voluntary - Club Dues are billed separately and you go to the MVC site to make the payment.
You only own Vistana mandatory - Club Dues are billed with your mandatory ownership.
You own both Vistana mandatory and voluntary (regardless of how you purchased the voluntary) - Club Dues are billed with your mandatory ownership.
You own Vistana mandatory and enrolled MVC weeks - Club Dues are billed with your mandatory ownership.
You own Vistana voluntary and enrolled MVC weeks - Club Dues are billed separately and you go to the MVC site to make the payment.
You own Vistana mandatory and voluntary and enrolled MVC weeks - Club Dues are billed with your mandatory ownership.
You own Vistana mandatory and or voluntary and Abound Trust Points - This one I am not sure about. Not sure if you would be billed the Club Dues with the trust points or with the Vistana mandatory maintenance fees.

I would think if you already have mvc enrolled weeks and a pre April 2022 (or whatever the date is) VSE points then you will get one mvc club dues. I would imagine it to sync with the date you were already paying your MVC dues. So if you paid 2022 already and you haven't been billed yet for 2023 it will come from MVC however they sent it to you last year.

I am thinking since you were already in MVC and abound it will just stay with that billing method.

I did get mine as a line item on one of my mandatory Vistana weeks but only because I wasn't already in the club/Abound.

From the other thread what they are saying is if you are billed both for Vistana and Marriott enrolled/trust points that shouldn't be the case and you only pay it once.

I don't see why a pre cut off date Vistana voluntary (bought from the developer or requalified) would not have the dues billed with their MF's if they weren't already paid through an existing Marriott account. A resale non requalified vistana voluntary resort would have no club dues.

If on the other hand you bought a Vistana mandatory resort post April (or whatever the date) this year then you will pay it twice if you also have either enrolled marriott or trust points or any pre cut off date VSE eligible mandatory weeks.

 

[dioxide45]

I did get mine as a line item on one of my mandatory Vistana weeks but only because I wasn't already in the club/Abound.

Ours was also billed with our mandatory Vistana week. We have not, yet, been billed a Club Fee by Marriott even though they billed us one last year for our enrolled weeks. I seems they have put a lot of importance behind mandatory ownerships and perhaps that is why they moved the separate billing by MVC to one tied to our VSN Mandatory.

If on the other hand you bought a Vistana mandatory resort post April (or whatever the date) this year then you will pay it twice if you also have either enrolled marriott or trust points or any pre cut off date VSE eligible mandatory weeks.

I beleive the date was August 8th. We are seeing this in at least one case where the owner is being billed the fee twice. It seems odd though as the Club Dues is supposed to include the VSN Fee. So why pay it twice if you are already a member.

 

[tschwa2]

...all I can think of is because Marriott wants to discourage people buying mandatory VSE weeks if they are already part of abound. The reasoning is I think because they can. Hyatt owners pay a full club dues (which includes their II membership) for each separate week or contract they own. I think they are trying to make a clear distinction between abound eligible and non and I am not even sure they will allow combining points by the same owners of eligible/enrolled VSE options and post August options.

 

[dioxide45]

...all I can think of is because Marriott wants to discourage people buying mandatory VSE weeks if they are already part of abound. The reasoning is I think because they can. Hyatt owners pay a full club dues (which includes their II membership) for each separate week or contract they own. I think they are trying to make a clear distinction between abound eligible and non and I am not even sure they will allow combining points by the same owners of eligible/enrolled VSE options and post August options.

There is also the $3000 enrollment fee (effective 1/1/2023) that could discourage mandatory resales. Not sure they will actually charge it, but it is spelled out in the new VSN Disclosure.

 

[tschwa2]

There is also the $3000 enrollment fee (effective 1/1/2023) that could discourage mandatory resales. Not sure they will actually charge it, but it is spelled out in the new VSN Disclosure.

That makes me think that the $3000 enrollment fee would be like the trust point fees and if payable would then make then eligible for abound. I guess we will have to see how it plays out.

 

[dioxide45]

That makes me think that the $3000 enrollment fee would be like the trust point fees and if payable would then make then eligible for abound. I guess we will have to see how it plays out.

Yeah, we don't really know. They seem to have clearly stated that post 8.8 resales wouldn't be eligible. Perhaps they had a change of heart, but it is also possible that the $3K is just for enrollment into VSN.

 

[Red elephant]

Yeah, we don't really know. They seem to have clearly stated that post 8.8 resales wouldn't be eligible. Perhaps they had a change of heart, but it is also possible that the $3K is just for enrollment into VSN.

I thought mandatory resales automatically get VSN membership? Now they want to charge $3000?

 

[kozykritter]

I thought mandatory resales automatically get VSN membership? Now they want to charge $3000?

Mandatory means that those ownerships must be enrolled in the VSN but doesn't preclude Vistana from charging an enrollment fee to accomplish this. If it were a voluntary resale ownership trying to enroll, they would require a purchase plus perhaps also a lower enrollment fee. For mandatory, they can't require a purchase since VSN membership is contractually required so they set a higher enrollment fee to cut off cheap access to the VSN.

 

[Eric B]

I thought mandatory resales automatically get VSN membership? Now they want to charge $3000?

The latest VSN Disclosure Guide for Mandatory Members makes a distinction between the defined terms "Club Member" and "Network Member." Owning at a "Club Resort," which is the defined term for the mandatory resorts, comes with club membership but not necessarily network membership. In order to be a "Network Member," you have to fall within the definition, which reads as follows:

Network Member means an Owner, including a Club Member, who meets all of the terms and conditions for membership in the Network as determined by Network Operator from time to time.

Under Section 2.1 of the disclosure guide, Club Membership is a condition of ownership of a Club Resort VOI and allows the owner (a.k.a., the "Club Member") to use the VSN. That same section has the restriction on becoming a "Network Member" to direct buyers, buyers from "Approved Brokers," and children of Network Members that acquire their ownership by will or intestate succession. It also allows Marriott to establish other means of becoming a "Network Member" from time to time.

The Abound by Marriott Vacations Exchange Procedures doesn't use either the term "Club Member" or the term "Network Member." Instead it uses the term "VSN Member," which I would interpret as being the equivalent of "Network Member." IMHO, the distinction between "Club Member" and "Network Member" or "VSN Member" is the hook that allows them to limit unauthorized mandatory resale owners to VSN use without Abound use.

The disclosure guide lists two separate enrollment/re-instatement fees. The $3,000 fee is listed on the Club Dues Chart for Mandatory Members participating in the Network and the Abound Exchange Program as a note under the chart. There is also a $599 enrollment/re-instatement fee listed on the separate chart for Mandatory Members Opting out of participation in the Abound Exchange Program that is footnoted to indicate that re-enrollment will require purchase of another VOI in addition to payment of the fee. They haven't published anything regarding how that will work and I don't really expect them to do so - I believe the current policies/rules for authorizing resale Vistana ownerships are not disclosed in a publicly available document but are kept in internal sales documents.

One thing that I heard from customer service over the phone is that they won't be able to combine accounts that have been established for new ownerships with existing ownerships until after January 1st. Much as I would hate to speculate/start rumors, that leads me to believe that they might offer enrollment for a fee for unauthorized voluntary resale units or something like that. My unauthorized voluntary resale units do show up on the Abound side of things when I select the advanced search option to look for an Abound exchange - they don't show up as eligible for electing Club Points, though. It could be just that the IT implementation was a bit goofy and that's just information that shouldn't have been ported over to Abound, though. It is, however, consistent with the possibility that they have a reason to delay allowing combination of account access until January (though I could be just looking for logical patterns in chaotic noise).

 

[dioxide45]

This is what the VSN Disclosure Guide for Mandatory Members indicates when it comes to transfers and the enrollment fee;

8.4 Effect of Transfer of Network Member’s VOI. Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties to a sale, assignment, or transfer, if a Network Member (“Selling Network Member”) sells, assigns, or transfers the Selling Network’s VOI to another party (“New Network Member”), the Selling Network Member will lose any and all rights to utilize the StarOptions associated with such VOI, including but not limited to the right to reserve a Vacation Period or to use any previously-reserved Vacation Period. Each New Network Member will be required to remit to the Network Operator an enrollment fee; provided, however, an enrollment fee shall not be required to be paid if the New Network Member is an existing Network Member or a Family Member of the Selling Network Member. Until payment of the enrollment fee is received (or waived by Network Operator), Network Operator may restrict the purchaser of such VOI(s) from accessing the benefits of the Network. The current enrollment fee is referenced in the Network Fees Chart. Network Operator reserves the right to adjust the amount of the enrollment fee from time to time and to waive the enrollment fee on a case-by-case basis in Network Operator’s sole discretion.

 

[dioxide45]

My unauthorized voluntary resale units do show up on the Abound side of things when I select the advanced search option to look for an Abound exchange - they don't show up as eligible for electing Club Points, though. It could be just that the IT implementation was a bit goofy and that's just information that shouldn't have been ported over to Abound, though. It is, however, consistent with the possibility that they have a reason to delay allowing combination of account access until January (though I could be just looking for logical patterns in chaotic noise).

I am not really sure what you are referring to here, but if you are just talking about searching for Club Point availability and selecting resorts from the list, those voluntary resorts will appear because they are resorts that can be booked in the Abound system using Abound Club Points. I don't think that is any indicator of them being able to enroll in Abound. There are thousands of owners that own those resorts that are members of VSN (bought developer or requalified). They can use StarOptions or elect those weeks for Club Points.

 

[Eric B]

I am not really sure what you are referring to here, but if you are just talking about searching for Club Point availability and selecting resorts from the list, those voluntary resorts will appear because they are resorts that can be booked in the Abound system using Abound Club Points. I don't think that is any indicator of them being able to enroll in Abound. There are thousands of owners that own those resorts that are members of VSN (bought developer or requalified). They can use StarOptions or elect those weeks for Club Points.

When I select the advanced search option, what shows up for me is a list of my owned VOIs that are mostly potentially sources of elected points. I say mostly because it includes my unauthorized voluntary resale VOIs, as I noted.

The list of resorts to exchange into is a separate drop down on the user interface for the search whether or not the advanced search function is chosen. The part i described is not a drop down but instead is a group of check the box items representing my VOIs owned with Vistana.

Your interface might be different as you also own Marriott VOIs. Mine is only Vistana. No idea if that’s the case; I’m only does what I see and interact with.

 

[Eric B]

This is what the VSN Disclosure Guide for Mandatory Members indicates when it comes to transfers and the enrollment fee;

8.4 Effect of Transfer of Network Member’s VOI. Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties to a sale, assignment, or transfer, if a Network Member (“Selling Network Member”) sells, assigns, or transfers the Selling Network’s VOI to another party (“New Network Member”), the Selling Network Member will lose any and all rights to utilize the StarOptions associated with such VOI, including but not limited to the right to reserve a Vacation Period or to use any previously-reserved Vacation Period. Each New Network Member will be required to remit to the Network Operator an enrollment fee; provided, however, an enrollment fee shall not be required to be paid if the New Network Member is an existing Network Member or a Family Member of the Selling Network Member. Until payment of the enrollment fee is received (or waived by Network Operator), Network Operator may restrict the purchaser of such VOI(s) from accessing the benefits of the Network. The current enrollment fee is referenced in the Network Fees Chart. Network Operator reserves the right to adjust the amount of the enrollment fee from time to time and to waive the enrollment fee on a case-by-case basis in Network Operator’s sole discretion.

The wording of section 8.4 does seem to make it clear that if you're already a "Network Member" you won't be charged an "enrollment fee." The dues charts list the fees as "enrollment/re-instatement fee," though, which leaves open the possibility of being charged a "re-instatement fee." Bottom line is that they've written the disclosure guide quite ambiguously and haven't done much to communicate how it will really work. It sure would be nice to see some FAQs on the subject but I don't personally believe that Marriott will do anything to publish something like that as it would be against their interest to clarify things for resale transfers.

 

[Red elephant]

Mandatory means that those ownerships must be enrolled in the VSN but doesn't preclude Vistana from charging an enrollment fee to accomplish this. If it were a voluntary resale ownership trying to enroll, they would require a purchase plus perhaps also a lower enrollment fee. For mandatory, they can't require a purchase since VSN membership is contractually required so they set a higher enrollment fee to cut off cheap access to the VSN.

Wow so buying WKV may require a VSN enrollment fee in the future. Would that not depreciate those resales If you have to pay a fee to be a member of something you are suppose to be in?

 

[timsi]

Automatically enrolled means they can't charge a fee to enroll, otherwise the condition to pay negates the idea that it is done automatically.

 

[kozykritter]

Wow so buying WKV may require a VSN enrollment fee in the future. Would that not depreciate those resales If you have to pay a fee to be a member of something you are suppose to be in?

Definitely would have an impact. One could argue that that is the risk an existing resale buyer took when they gained access to the VSN for pennies on the dollar. Marriott has no interest in protecting the resale value of a resale since they don't have a financial stake in the transaction. It would make sense that similar to Club point resales, they would get some money out of the deal by charging a mandatory enrollment fee to activate the resale on the system. The days of cheap VSN access are over. The fact that the ownership has to be part of the VSN is irrelevant for this discussion since they will be added regardless of the fee charged.

 

[timsi]

The days of cheap VSN access are over.

Do we have confirmation that they will try to charge an enrollment fee to the mandatory resale post 8/9? If they try to do that they will be challenged big time. It seems you take Marriott's side without having all the facts.