Experts Advise: Considering Kauai - Waiohai Purchase

[rudyr]

Hi TUG,
I stayed at this resort ~10 years ago and loved it. I'm now married w/ child and living on the west coast, so an annual vacation to Kauai where we can have a kitchen + a 2nd Br to invite family/friends 100% is something we'd make use of. That kind of checks off my first rule of thumb: buy where you want to go and can use.

Looking at the advertised rental rates, buying SEEMS to make sense over renting. As far as I can tell, MF's are ~$1,900/yr and most rentals on RW and others seem to at least cover MF and in many cases rent at 1.5-2x MF depending on week.

Questions I have so far are:

- Nearly all ads show the week as 'float'; do these units actually have a specific deeded week and/or how easy is it to change to different dates the subsequent year?

- I personally think this is a pretty nice resort, as there are obviously other/cheaper ones we could select if the only concern was a bed and a roof on Kauai. Am I correct in thinking IF we wanted to exchange it on II that Hawaii is a desirable enough venue that it generally would yield a comparably nice place elsewhere; in particular if we were looking internationally?

- What are we losing out on buying 2nd hand, e.g. perks not receiving because we bought on the secondary?

Thanks so much in advance!

 

[vacationtime1]

All Waiohai units float. Units in Hales 1-3 float weeks 1-51; units in Hales 4-8 float weeks 1-50. We have never had a problem getting whatever week we wanted (including week 51) when we reserved at the twelve month mark.

Don't buy Waiohai to trade for several reasons: (1) Waiohai isn't cheap; your "cost of trade" will be about $2,200 excluding your capital costs; you can rent many places for less, (2) almost any trade is a trade down as Waiohai is one of the top two resorts on Kauai and one of the top ten (or so) in all of Hawaii, (3) trading is inherently uncertain and if you trade at the last minute, which is increasingly common for Marriott trades, you may have high airfare costs, and (4) Waiohai does not have lockout units, so you get but one trade for your unit.

The only perk you lose by buying resale is the ability to convert to hotel points which is not a cost/effective use of your unit. Also, I'm not sure Marriott even sells this as a week-based product any more; I think they will want to sell you Destination Points which is another discussion completely.

Waiohai is a nice resort by any measure, but the best use of ownership is to use it, not to rent or trade it.

 

[jeepie]

All Waiohai units float. Units in Hales 1-3 float weeks 1-51; units in Hales 4-8 float weeks 1-50. We have never had a problem getting whatever week we wanted (including week 51) when we reserved at the twelve month mark.

Don't buy Waiohai to trade for several reasons: (1) Waiohai isn't cheap; your "cost of trade" will be about $2,200 excluding your capital costs; you can rent many places for less, (2) almost any trade is a trade down as Waiohai is one of the top two resorts on Kauai and one of the top ten (or so) in all of Hawaii, (3) trading is inherently uncertain and if you trade at the last minute, which is increasingly common for Marriott trades, you may have high airfare costs, and (4) Waiohai does not have lockout units, so you get but one trade for your unit.

The only perk you lose by buying resale is the ability to convert to hotel points which is not a cost/effective use of your unit. Also, I'm not sure Marriott even sells this as a week-based product any more; I think they will want to sell you Destination Points which is another discussion completely.

First, welcome to TUG.
Echo what Robert said.
Also, you COULD buy a week from Marriott acting as a broker. Check marriottvacationclub.com/resales and you will see some listings. You will see prices are higher than you can find elsewhere; however, you will have the right to convert to Marriott Rewards points (NOT a good option for most). You will probably be offered other incentives, and if you put the purchase on a Marriott Rewards Visa card, you will get 5x the purchase price in points (worth maybe 3.5-5%, ymmv).
You could also buy a week as above, along with Destination Club points, and enroll the week in the DC program. That is a topic discussed elsewhere on TUG, but worth considering especially if you want more flexibility.

 

[rudyr]

Thanks so much for the responses. Brief follow-ups...

- Aside from Ocean View vs. not, I should ask if units are Hales 1-3 vs. 4-8?
- When you say reserving @ the 12 month mark, what does that mean exactly?
- So, for trading my assumption of getting a higher-end location like Waohai being a plus was wrong? I was just thinking that if we wanted to go somewhere overseas like Bali, southern Europe, etc. that those would be considered on average higher-end and I'd need something of corresponding value to use in exchange. Wrong on that logic?

Finally, I'm seeing annuals on the secondary market listed between $8-12k, is that range 'market' or ambitiously priced and I might have decent negotiation leverage?

 

[GregT]

Questions I have so far are:

- Nearly all ads show the week as 'float'; do these units actually have a specific deeded week and/or how easy is it to change to different dates the subsequent year? It is easy to change dates for a floating week, however there will be competition for the highest demand weeks and you may not always get the desired week

- I personally think this is a pretty nice resort, as there are obviously other/cheaper ones we could select if the only concern was a bed and a roof on Kauai. Am I correct in thinking IF we wanted to exchange it on II that Hawaii is a desirable enough venue that it generally would yield a comparably nice place elsewhere; in particular if we were looking internationally? Yes you can trade this, but it is an impractical trader because of high MFs and the inability to lock-off. You may be dissatisfied with your matching trade, ie, its likely you would get a 2BR at MOC or Ko Olina in trade

- What are we losing out on buying 2nd hand, e.g. perks not receiving because we bought on the secondary? only modest perks -- you can't trade for MRPs

Thanks so much in advance!

I would think very hard about buying a Waiohai. It is a beautiful property, to be sure, but the rent isn't that much higher than the MFs. And that's the asking price for the rent, you can always negotiate.

Depending on when you want to go, that will also impact whether or not renting is preferable. I love owning these things, but it's more emotional satisfaction (and lifestyle decision) than it is financial sense.

Good luck with your evaluation!

Best,

Greg

 

[vacationtime1]

Thanks so much for the responses. Brief follow-ups...

- Aside from Ocean View vs. not, I should ask if units are Hales 1-3 vs. 4-8? The owner may know whether the unit floats 1-50 or 1-51; the owner is probably unaware in which Hale the deeded unit is located. You will need to review the estoppel carefully on this if it is important to you.
- When you say reserving @ the 12 month mark, what does that mean exactly? Call exactly one year in advance to make your reservation -- at least if you want a summer or vacation week.
- So, for trading my assumption of getting a higher-end location like Waohai being a plus was wrong? I was just thinking that if we wanted to go somewhere overseas like Bali, southern Europe, etc. that those would be considered on average higher-end and I'd need something of corresponding value to use in exchange. Wrong on that logic? Your logic is sound. Most of us try to trade cheap units for expensive units. Your trades would be even or downwards.

Finally, I'm seeing annuals on the secondary market listed between $8-12k, is that range 'market' or ambitiously priced and I might have decent negotiation leverage? Supply exceeds demand, so there is bargaining leverage on price. Note that there is a substantial price differential between island view and ocean view (I would purchase only ocean view; some of the views from Hale 4 are unacceptable, at least for us).

Please see my comments in red, above.

 

[dioxide45]

- When you say reserving @ the 12 month mark, what does that mean exactly?

Marriott has a very precise inventory release calendar for weeks reservations. What we all mean when we refer to 12 weeks is calling on the date one year in advance of the first available checkin day of the week you want to reserve. So say you want to checkin on December 17th 2016. That week actually has checkin days of December 16th, 17th and 18th. You would actually need to call to reserve on December 16th 2015.

Don't worry about this too much. Marriott has some very good inventory release tools on their website that tell you exactly what date you can call. You will get access to them when you become an owner.

 

[BigKahuna]

I have purchased both my weeks at MOC, which is on Maui, on the resale market with mixed results. My first week was a learning experience so the next week I bought was a much better deal price wise. Prices on the resale market in Hawaii are about as low as they have ever been so, if you want to buy now might be a good time. But remember maintenance fees usually go up, not down, and you will have little or no control over this.
I suggest you only buy if you intend to use it, and not to trade. If you are at all in doubt about using I suggest renting to be a better option. I happen to love MOC and love owning there, and we go a couple times a year. We also live on the west coast and can be there in 5 hours.
Good luck with your decision and don't hesitate to ask lots of questions here. TUG has been an invaluable resource to me.
Bigkahuna

 

[rudyr]

Thanks all for the responses, an order of magnitude more educated now on this. Likely this year we'll rent because of a relatively firm travel date, but might purchase for subsequent years. And yes, prices do seem pretty low. Is Marriott still doing the ROFR if agreed upon price is below a certain level?

 

[ThreeLittleBirds]

I recently traded into Waiohai and we were given an ocean view room in Hale 7. I was very disappointed with our view, and I am not picky. I would have much preferred a pool view vs. a parking lot and utility lines (and some ocean).

That said, we stayed at Waiohai in 2012 (also on a trade). Our room was right above the lobby and we loved it!

I would be hesitant going back if I knew I were staying in an OV Hale 7 unit.

 

[BocaBoy]

Most ocean view units at Waiohai are not much better than the island views. I would seriously consider buying island view if I were buying at Waiohai. The real question is whether it makes sense to buy a non-lockoff unit if you will not be able to enroll it in the DC program. If you do a hybrid deal and enroll the week, the lockoff availability is not so important because Waiohai gives you even more points than Ko Olina which was historically a slightly more expensive purchase.

 

[GaryDouglas]

If Waiohai assigns rooms by the same process as MOC (MMO) and room location is important to you, consider the following. Buying two every other year ocean view units that are both even or both odd. This will allow you to reserve at 13 months in addition to at 12 months. This will increase your odds of getting higher demand times of the year and make it more likely that you will be given a room of your preference. Of course, this is assuming that you have already decided you must have a continuing vacation at Waiohai.

 

[rudyr]

Thanks all. For this year we're going to rent @ Waiohai for Easter week. Moving forward, our plan is to dip our toes in the water with a Shadow Ridge annual (gold season) that happens to already have thanksgiving week reserved for 2016 (we do driving vacations that week already). I'm not sure how great of a deal it is, but $3,500 is the all in for the deed, closing, and '16 MFs.

I think the thing that swayed us was:

- It's drivable to somewhere nice that we'd use.

- Based on what we read on here, should have decent trading power w/ 'Marriott Preference' so we can experiment a bit in that dimension to see if we can get the occasional up-trade value from time to time.

 

[Bill4728]

Thanks all. For this year we're going to rent @ Waiohai for Easter week. Moving forward, our plan is to dip our toes in the water with a Shadow Ridge annual (gold season) that happens to already have thanksgiving week reserved for 2016 (we do driving vacations that week already). I'm not sure how great of a deal it is, but $3,500 is the all in for the deed, closing, and '16 MFs.

I think the thing that swayed us was:

- It's drivable to somewhere nice that we'd use.

- Based on what we read on here, should have decent trading power w/ 'Marriott Preference' so we can experiment a bit in that dimension to see if we can get the occasional up-trade value from time to time.

I'd guess that if choose to go to Waiohai during the slower times of the year , you could deposit the 1 bd side of shadow ridge and get the trade with II. You'd still have the studio to use or trade.

Would your view be as good? probably not but still it would be very nice and MFs would be 1/2 of the MF at Waiohai

Good Luck