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EU bans American travelers effective July 1st

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Ken555

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Actually, I do know because I take my time when shopping and make the effort to be aware of my surroundings and avoid people. I make a list and know where the products I need are located before I enter a store because I shop stores I am familiar with. It isn't that hard to avoid people if you choose the proper time and don't live in such a crowded area.
The point here is NOT to suggest that masks are not important (or fail to help) it is that staying (sheltering) at home is a superior alternative to avoiding exposure. Avoid crowds, stay home, shop during slow periods - these pieces of advice have been too quickly discarded in favor of placing too much dependance on the protection level offered by a mask.

Stay home - that has the largest impact. That message has been lost.

I’m not sure what your goal was to announce on a public forum that you are not wearing a mask. Your opinion won’t change based on our comments, and you know not wearing a mask is wrong (after all, you’ve admitted as much). Nevertheless, you are comfortable rationalizing the benefit of wearing a mask by changing your behavior and plans when in public spaces. I really don’t know why you announced this publicly...it’s as if you want us to agree that some people should be exempted from wearing a mask in certain situations.

I could do the same. I know my local stores quite well and could be in and out very quickly, especially at off hours. But I’m not that selfish...if I go out, I’m wearing a mask. Not just because it’s mandatory, but because it’s the right thing to do and sends the right message to others.

I’m fairly sure we will learn that the rapid and continual increase of C19 cases will be due in part to those not wearing a mask. I am absolutely certain I’m not asymptomatic, yet I will always wear a mask when going out. Why can’t you?


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bbodb1

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I’m not sure what your goal was to announce on a public forum that you are not wearing a mask.
...
Nevertheless, you are comfortable rationalizing the benefit of wearing a mask by changing your behavior and plans when in public spaces. I really don’t know why you announced this publicly...it’s as if you want us to agree that some people should be exempted from wearing a mask in certain situations.

I could do the same. I know my local stores quite well and could be in and out very quickly, especially at off hours. But I’m not that selfish...if I go out, I’m wearing a mask. Not just because it’s mandatory, but because it’s the right thing to do and sends the right message to others.
...

As I said previously, Stay home - that has the largest impact. That message has been lost.
The wearing of masks has played a part in people letting down their guard with respect to returning toward what used to be normal routines. I am not suggesting the wearing of masks is without some health benefits - but increasing the number of trips out of the house because of confidence and trust in a mask creates more risk as opposed to staying home. We still are not anywhere near the point of resuming normal routines and the best (safest) practice is still to Stay Home.

Your opinion won’t change based on our comments, and you know not wearing a mask is wrong (after all, you’ve admitted as much).

Please show me where I said this - now I have discussed that I will follow an establishment's rules on the matter because it is their right as a business to establish rules to be a customer. More specifically, I choose to dine on the outdoor patio (mask free) at McAlister's since I did not want to enter the location and they were fine with this arrangement. Perhaps you interpreted this in some other way, but just to be clear, I have no problem following the posted rules of a business or an establishment. If that means a mask is required for entry, then I will either patronize the business outside (in the fresh air, with the benefit of the U.V. rays from the sun) or take my business elsewhere. I have not and will not complain to a business about their policies in this area - again, this is their prerogative. But I am not comfortable placing myself in an environment where masks are required.

I’m fairly sure we will learn that the rapid and continual increase of C19 cases will be due in part to those not wearing a mask. I am absolutely certain I’m not asymptomatic, yet I will always wear a mask when going out. Why can’t you?

To which, my reply is, I have stayed home to the greatest possible degree.
Why can't you? How much better off would we be if all unnecessary trips were avoided?
 

Ken555

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As I said previously, Stay home - that has the largest impact. That message has been lost.

Yes, staying home is the best advice. I don't think that message has been lost at all, I just think many are ignoring it. It's good to repeat the advice.

The wearing of masks has played a part in people letting down their guard with respect to returning toward what used to be normal routines. I am not suggesting the wearing of masks is without some health benefits - but increasing the number of trips out of the house because of confidence and trust in a mask creates more risk as opposed to staying home. We still are not anywhere near the point of resuming normal routines and the best (safest) practice is still to Stay Home.

I agree that some believe that a mask protects them when out and so will leave their home more frequently than they would otherwise, even though *every* mask ad, recommendations from local and federal governments, and other sources are very clear that it does not. A mask protects *others* and only works when everyone close to you wears them while maintaining social distance. However, new evidence (see Dr Blix's quote below) points to a potential benefit for the wearer, as well.

Please show me where I said this - now I have discussed that I will follow an establishment's rules on the matter because it is their right as a business to establish rules to be a customer. More specifically, I choose to dine on the outdoor patio (mask free) at McAlister's since I did not want to enter the location and they were fine with this arrangement. Perhaps you interpreted this in some other way, but just to be clear, I have no problem following the posted rules of a business or an establishment. If that means a mask is required for entry, then I will either patronize the business outside (in the fresh air, with the benefit of the U.V. rays from the sun) or take my business elsewhere. I have not and will not complain to a business about their policies in this area - again, this is their prerogative.

My apologies. I just reread a few of your earlier posts and you were very clear. In this five minute review of your posts, I did find these questionable comments...

Do I feel like I am placing others at risk? No, because as noted above, I am maintaining extra social distance everywhere possible and practical.
If others choose to encroach upon my space, they are assuming the risk.

[...]I see the mask and associate its presence with disease, filth and weakness. We 'mask up' when we don't want (or can't stand) a smell, need to avoid fumes or other things that should not be inhaled. We 'mask up' to protect our 'weak' self from something external so powerful or overwhelming. I see masks as more a portent of suffering or even death.

I now see that your aversion to masks is more than I had thought.

I did not - and do not - wear a mask. To be clear, I am not saying my decision is right or wrong but given the circumstances in our area, applying the standard noted by Dr. Blix above with respect to wearing a mask in the places I regularly visit, at the time(s) regularly visited and with the usual population density in these establishments during these visits does not seem to be a necessary act because a minimum social distance -and more- can be maintained at all times.

This statement has been debunked in that social distance is not a satisfactory replacement for wearing a mask. In fact, both are still essential when near others, and it is obviously difficult to adhere to this in many venues (supermarkets, etc). The CDC now "recommends that people wear cloth face coverings in public settings when around people outside of their household, especially when other social distancing measures are difficult to maintain." Of course, these are just minimum recommendations, as it is better and advisable to have more than six feet separation from others while still wearing a mask. When coughing, sneezing or even speaking loudly you are able to spread viruses more than six feet from you.

Also, Dr Blix has changed her recommendation since May. From yesterday:

While she spoke, Birx reiterated Abbott's plea to the public to wear masks, saying that new research has found wearing a mask not only protects those around you, but partially protects yourself as well.

"I'm really appealing to every Texan to wear a mask," she said.

Here's a one minute video interview from just two days ago with Dr Blix re the importance of wearing masks. This is also a great example of how scientific research may change recommendations.


But I am not comfortable placing myself in an environment where masks are required.

Yes, it seems you have personal reason(s) to have an aversion to masks. Sadly, you may find in the near future that they are mandatory in many places, not just in the USA. I would suggest you consider what would make you more comfortable wearing a mask (perhaps a different design? more comfortable mask?). Perhaps even the new recommendation by Dr Blix might influence your opinion?

Of course, the best advice is your own! Stay home.

To which, my reply is, I have stayed home to the greatest possible degree.

Excellent.

Why can't you? How much better off would we be if all unnecessary trips were avoided?

Now you've made an incorrect assumption, though I haven't posted much about my own situation in a while. My last in-person meeting and visit to a restaurant was on March 9. Since then I have left my home five (5) times. I have only twice entered a commercial building (medical requirements; I went for meds and a vaccine and then a visit for regular blood tests and a C19 antibody test (= negative)). I have all grocery items delivered via Instacart, Shipt, and Imperfect Foods. Included in the five excursions I visit a local farm which has excellent produce (and this time of year fabulous California strawberries!), and since it's an outdoor venue with very few people (the most I've seen at one time is ~6) I'm not worried...and every single person (including employees) are wearing a mask (of course, it's mandatory in California). I intend to go out today to pickup medicine (which erroneously wasn't delivered via mail and I need today) though there's a possibility the local independent pharmacy I'm using can deliver; if I go out today I will stop at the farm and get more produce.

So, I am staying home. I'm staying home much more than most people I know. I'm not doing *any* unnecessary trips. I am following the advice in the strictest possible way I can. I've canceled every trip I had scheduled since March and will not be traveling anywhere until next year at the earliest, not even within driving distance (unless circumstances change sufficiently to permit it). And, at this point, with such abysmal adherence to the safety recommendations and with our national numbers increasing I suspect I won't be able to travel until after we have a vaccine. While I am not surprised, I am extremely disappointed with my fellow Americans.
 

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Actually, I do know because I take my time when shopping and make the effort to be aware of my surroundings and avoid people. I make a list and know where the products I need are located before I enter a store because I shop stores I am familiar with. It isn't that hard to avoid people if you choose the proper time and don't live in such a crowded area.
The point here is NOT to suggest that masks are not important (or fail to help) it is that staying (sheltering) at home is a superior alternative to avoiding exposure. Avoid crowds, stay home, shop during slow periods - these pieces of advice have been too quickly discarded in favor of placing too much dependance on the protection level offered by a mask.

Stay home - that has the largest impact. That message has been lost.

Sorry, still just excuses, IMO. Why do you have such a problem with doing such a simple thing as wearing a mask? Limiting your social contacts ("bubble") and avoiding unnecessary trips outside your home are the most important parts, but you are missing the other part of the equation. Despite the fact it has worked everywhere else in the world, the US for some reason doesn't seem to want to get the message that when outside your home you need to not only exercise proper physical distancing, but also wear a mask! Why do you think your numbers continue to rise?

For those of us looking in from outside of the USA, we just shake our heads at the inability of one of the most advanced nations on earth to get their act together on a consistent, national basis. Instead, everyone seems to want to find umpteen reasons under the sun for not doing this simple act. Even if you are in a more rural area, there are still people around. Wearing a mask is not as much about you not getting the disease, it is more about you not giving it unwittingly to someone else, particularly in an enclosed, indoor area. It's also about setting an example for others, so they don't have an excuse to not wear one, but aren't being as careful as you. :shrug: :wall:
 
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The one thing that caught my attention here was your point on wearing masks. I do not wear a mask in public because on those few occasions when I leave the house, I do the shopping required for our home when crowds are very light (but I also need to remind you I live in a rather rural area). I maintain social distance throughout each trip but I need to acknowledge this is rather easy to accomplish in my area. Obviously, a lot more people live in places where this is NOT possible.
I wanted to make this point because mask wearing (as useful as it may be) still is less effective than social distancing (and from my perspective, the greater the social distance, the better) and social distancing is less effective than staying at home.


Another reminder that you continue to dismiss mask-wearing despite the overwhelming statistics and advice
to do this ONE THING that can truly help. Social distancing is helpful, but not even close to the mask-wearing.
I guess there is no convincing you, so I wish you luck.
You are not only endangering yourself, but if you do get infected, even as an asymptomatic carrier, you will be a threat to others,
and THAT is what infuriates me. Guess you don't care about that. The last line below is applicable to your belief.
As a healthcare provider, I see you as part of the problem.

yet another article:
https://www.foxnews.com/health/wearing-mask-cuts-own-risk-novel-coronavirus-65-percent-experts-say

Excerpts:
"We've learned more due to research and additional scientific evidence and now we know [that] not only wearing a mask prevents the person wearing the mask to transmit to others, but wearing the mask protects the person who's wearing it," said Dean Blumberg, chief of pediatric infectious diseases at UC Davis Children’s Hospital.
"So the wearer of the mask, even the standard rectangular surgical masks ... will decrease the risk of infection by the person wearing the mask by about 65 percent."
Ristenpart's lab at UC Davis has studied how people emit small droplets while breathing or talking that could carry the virus.
The pair highlighted two primary methods of transmission. The first being visible droplets a carrier expels, which are roughly one-third the size of a human hair. They said masks create an effective barrier against those types of droplets.
The second is via the aerosol particles we expel when we talk. They are about 1/100th the size of a human hair and are more difficult to defend against. He said that's because the smaller particles could still sneak through a gap in rectangular or homemade cloth masks.
“Everyone should wear a mask,” Blumberg said.
“People who say, ‘I don’t believe masks work,’ are ignoring scientific evidence. It’s not a belief system. It’s like saying, ‘I don’t believe in gravity.’" :wall:
 

bbodb1

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@jme - the point you fail to recognize is social distancing and staying at home are both better solutions than mask wearing.
As I have written multiple times now, I maintain much more than a 6 foot separation from others anytime I am out in public. When I do have to enter a store, I take my time and ensure I can get what I need without interacting or encroaching with anyone else. I shop during low crowd times and I have written previously I have the advantage of living in a comparatively rural area compared to most TUG'gers.

The continued focus on mask wearing misses the fact the staying at home is the best solution, and social distancing is the next best solution.

Wearing of masks (for some) has become akin to wearing a shield in that they go back to interacting with others in the same way they used to pre COVID-19 with the idea the mask will unfailingly protect then. Masks are not infallible and while staying at home is not infallible either, I like my odds better (staying at home as much as possible) compared to people in masks going about their lives as if nothing has changed.

I've seen too many mask wearers with the mask on partially or incorrectly (covering only nose or only mouth) or hanging off one ear (still on their body) moving around as if they still had a mask on.

So I will ask you, Mr. or Ms. Health Care Provider, why aren't you advocating for the safest approach possible - staying at home?
Because lost in all of this push for masks, I am shocked the best advice possible is not being presented....
 

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@jme - the point you fail to recognize is social distancing and staying at home are both better solutions than mask wearing.
As I have written multiple times now, I maintain much more than a 6 foot separation from others anytime I am out in public. When I do have to enter a store, I take my time and ensure I can get what I need without interacting or encroaching with anyone else. I shop during low crowd times and I have written previously I have the advantage of living in a comparatively rural area compared to most TUG'gers.

The continued focus on mask wearing misses the fact the staying at home is the best solution, and social distancing is the next best solution.

Wearing of masks (for some) has become akin to wearing a shield in that they go back to interacting with others in the same way they used to pre COVID-19 with the idea the mask will unfailingly protect then. Masks are not infallible and while staying at home is not infallible either, I like my odds better (staying at home as much as possible) compared to people in masks going about their lives as if nothing has changed.

I've seen too many mask wearers with the mask on partially or incorrectly (covering only nose or only mouth) or hanging off one ear (still on their body) moving around as if they still had a mask on.

So I will ask you, Mr. or Ms. Health Care Provider, why aren't you advocating for the safest approach possible - staying at home?
Because lost in all of this push for masks, I am shocked the best advice possible is not being presented....

Tired of your vapid, mindless blather. No one here is out to "get you", only to educate you. Why? Because you need it.
Staying at home is great, it's when you go out I'm concerned, because you're relying on luck.
Distancing doesn't address the aerosol droplets that travel 20 feet. Watch some scientific videos.
Masks reduce Covid exposure up to 65%. Helps you and your potential VICTIMS alongside you.
What else would you like to know? Not my info, but that of experts far smarter than you are.
If you like to play in the traffic, go ahead.
 

bbodb1

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Tired of your vapid, mindless blather. No one here is out to "get you", only to educate you. Why? Because you need it.
Staying at home is great, it's when you go out I'm concerned, because you're relying on luck.
Distancing doesn't address the aerosol droplets that travel 20 feet. Watch some scientific videos.
Masks reduce Covid exposure up to 65%. Helps you and your potential VICTIMS alongside you.
What else would you like to know? Not my info, but that of experts far smarter than you are.
If you like to play in the traffic, go ahead.

Well, good afternoon little snowflake! And to save time, let's just reference your other message here as well:

Sir you haven't a clue.

Not only for what I've been saying, but what the genius scientists, doctors, and epidemiologists all say.
And every single one of them is far smarter than you are. Maybe you should reread that statement.

Go ahead with your no-mask solution. Staying at home is fine (I've never criticized that as it's the best solution, OBVIOUSLY),
and I don't mention it because it's something everyone knows already. What a petty comment.

Hey, I'm not out to "get you"...only to help and educate you, but you live thru this unprecedented pandemic on the whims
of your "feelings" rather than facts. Feelings won't keep you safe. Cutting risks will.

And ........calling me "Mr Health Care Provider" (in the tone it was both meant & received) is quite the insult.
You should have more regard for someone else FAR smarter than you are.

And, btw, who toiled extremely hard until I was 30 in Medical School, and who has practiced for nearly 40 years.
Please tell me your educational background, sir.
What warrants your opinions to even be heard?
Sir, you're not worthy to tie my shoes..... and don't you ever forget it.

Aren't you special with all that knowledge - and lacking the ability to effectively communicate it. My suggestions to you would include (but not be limited to) remedial courses on reading comprehension and effective writing 101 but I feel confident (based on your arrogance) that you'll poo poo these recommendations. Your loss.

In the meantime, I will be employing the safest option available to me - staying at home - which (since you seem not to understand this) means I will not be going out in public unless absolutely necessary. Do you understand these words?

Let's try this one more time as well (but I'll phrase it a bit differently for you this time) - mask usage places people in more situations where transmission is possible because masks give a sense of protection to a level that masks do NOT deliver. You (AKA the Oracle of.....well something) said it yourself that masks may indeed reduce the possibility of transmission by as much as 65% (give or take, thereabout...). However (and hold on to your hat here...) if you are placing yourself in a greater number of situations where transmission is possible (because you are wearing that mask and feel safer), you are increasing the danger to yourself.

And that - kind sir - is the point I have been making. I am not refuting your science (well, I doubt it is your science but I digress), rather the (conflicting) recommendations flowing from the medical community. You hop up and down like a pre schooler who had their crayons taken away when the world doesn't listen to you.

You are quite the contradiction - with yourself - and entertaining too. Please tell me you'll be sharing more of your random musings - but please do so publicly as we so need a laugh these days.

In the meantime, I'll leave you with one last thought (as you seem to need it):

Over, under,
around and through,
Meet Mr. Bunny Rabbit,
pull and through.


Best of luck!
 

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pedro47

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Thanks you Europe for your decision. Americans needs to Stay Home.

"Knowledge is Power," by Bacon.
 
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@bbodb1 - It is entirely plausible to utilise all three tactics to ensure the safety of yourself and others. Stay at home whenever possible, maintain a good social distance (this is nigh on impossible in stores) AND wear as mask. It needn't be one or the other. Wearing a mask does provide protection for both the wearer and those in the vicinity, it's been proven to be more effective than social distancing so why not decrease the risk of contraction/infection and wear a mask whilst continuing to maintain a safe distance?
 

vacationtime1

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Staying at home is a good way to protect YOURSELF.

Wearing a mask in public is a good way to protect OTHERS.

When you proudly tell us that you say at home to protect YOURSELF but will not wear a mask when in public to protect OTHERS, you are telling the world a whole lot about your personal values, character, and integrity.
 

Passepartout

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Staying at home is a good way to protect YOURSELF.

Wearing a mask in public is a good way to protect OTHERS.


When you proudly tell us that you say at home to protect YOURSELF but will not wear a mask when in public to protect OTHERS, you are telling the world a whole lot about your personal values, character, and integrity.
The issue is truly THIS SIMPLE.

Thank You!
 

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Brewster Green (two weeks).
...(snippred)...

When you proudly tell us that you say at home to protect YOURSELF but will not wear a mask when in public to protect OTHERS, you are telling the world a whole lot about your personal values, character, and integrity.

And that is the crux of it! How utterly selfish of anyone who refuses to wear a mask without a valid medical reason to not do so.
 
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