Electrical Advice Needed !!!

[Cruiser Too]

Greetings Tug'ers !

The electrical experts at Home-Depot and Ace Hardware weren't able to help me, so this is a toughie.

I found a programmable switch, that fits in any normal "on-off" switch box.
I have three of these installed in my home and wanted to replace one of them.
These switches, once "programmed", will turn an outdoor lamp on, and off, at preset times (ie: ON at 8PM and OFF at 5AM).

The one I wanted clearly states "Neutral-wire must be used for appliance to function".

I looked at the product's wires and there were FOUR sets of wires:

• The standard Black-and-White wires
• The standard Green wire (Grounding)
• And... a bright-RED wire, which apparently is the "neutral" wire.

The QUESTION the two experts weren't able to answer:

• What is this wire for and what/where do I connect it to ???

TIA...

Doug

 

[AwayWeGo]

"3-Way" Switches Take Red Wires.

What is this wire for and what/where do I connect it to ?

The white wire is neutral.

Black wire is "hot."

Green wire is safety ground.

Red wire is not used for regular off-on single (1-way) switches.

Red wire is used when connecting a pair of 2-way ("3-way") switches controlling the same light fixture.

Click here for "3-way" switches wiring diagram showing red & black & white wires.

(They're really 2-way switches -- a matched set of 2 both controlling the same light fixture, as on both ends of a hallway. But most hardware store folks call'm 3-way switches. So it goes.)

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Cruiser Too]

AwayWeGo:

Thanks for replying !
Your explanation makes sense to me.
.
I'm still wondering WHY the packaging boldly states:

• "Neutral-wire must be used for appliance to function" ?????

IMHO... that only confuses the issue.

I always connect White-to-White, Black-to-Black and the Green to "ground".

Thanks Again !!!

 

[AwayWeGo]

When All Else Fails, Follow The Instructions.

I'm still wondering WHY the packaging boldly states:

• "Neutral-wire must be used for appliance to function" ?????

IMHO... that only confuses the issue.

I always connect White-to-White, Black-to-Black and the Green to "ground".

When you connect white to white & black to black, you are for sure using the neutral wire. (Also, the black "hot" wire.)

That is to say, the white wire is the neutral wire. (Not always, but usually. If you're using a length of 14/2 or 12/2 cable in a switch loop, then white & black are both "hot" -- black all the time & white whenever the switch is on, or vice versa depending on how you connect it. But that's another story.)

If a little instruction slip (preferably with wiring diagram) was packed in with the programmable switch, it would be a good idea to see what's printed there.

It's possible connecting white to white & black to black will just power the internal programmable switch mechanism, & then you still have to connect white to white plus red to the black wire on the light fixture, etc., that the programmable switch is going to control.

Good luck.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Cruiser Too]

Thanks...
Beginning to be information-overload which I don't handle well.

Thanks for pitching in.
It never fails to amaze me how resourceful TUG is !!!!

 

[isisdave]

In some simple, mostly older light-and-switch installations, there won't be a neutral wire in the switch box. That's because the feed from the panel was nearer the light than the switch, so they ran just a black "hot" wire to the switch, and the neutral is back at the light. In this case, the other wire in the switch box might be any color, depending on what the installer had a lot of. As long as there's a bulb in the lamp, it's at neutral potential; but if there's no bulb, it's just a piece of floating wire.

This doesn't matter for plain old incandescent lamps. For appliances, and even for some electronic switches, a neutral is required at the switch box, because there's an electronic circuit in the switch itself that needs to run all the time.

You could Google "neutral required" but that'll probably confuse you more.

 

[Cruiser Too]

In some simple, mostly older light-and-switch installations, there won't be a neutral wire in the switch box. That's because the feed from the panel was nearer the light than the switch, so they ran just a black "hot" wire to the switch, and the neutral is back at the light. In this case, the other wire in the switch box might be any color, depending on what the installer had a lot of. As long as there's a bulb in the lamp, it's at neutral potential; but if there's no bulb, it's just a piece of floating wire.

We've been in our house for around 35 years.
Every electric box I've opened... contained a black and a white wire.

You could Google "neutral required" but that'll probably confuse you more.

You talked me into it.
I won't bother to Google it.

 

[easyrider]

What hard wire is installed in the switch junction box with out the switch ?

 

[PigsDad]

We've been in our house for around 35 years.
Every electric box I've opened... contained a black and a white wire.

If the switch box only has a single black and a single white wire, you do not have a neutral -- you just have a "switch loop" from the light fixture (as isisdave explained). In that case, you cannot use the switch that requires the neutral.

Kurt

Edited to add: Here is a link to a page that has a couple nice diagrams showing the correct wiring when going from a regular switch to a programmable switch w/ the red wire. Note: the diagram assumes you have a neutral in the box.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Sometimes The Wire That's White Is Not Really A White Wire.

Every electric box I've opened... contained a black and a white wire.

If it's a switch box & the switch is at the end of a switch loop, then the white wire is not neutral -- not really a "white" wire in that sense.

In a switch loop, the white wire in a black-white pair is really a "red" wire -- except that in 2-wire cables, the conventional color coding is 1 black + 1 white (no red).

Confusing, eh ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia.​

 

[Elan]

I personally never trust wire colors to indicate anything. Use a DMM.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Never Assume Anything (Other Than A 2% Loan).

I personally never trust wire colors to indicate anything.

Trust, but verify.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Cruiser Too]

If the switch box only has a single black and a single white wire, you do not have a neutral -- you just have a "switch loop" from the light fixture (as isisdave explained). In that case, you cannot use the switch that requires the neutral. Kurt

Thanks Kurt !

So... I won't purchase that (requires neutral wiring...) unit.
I'll keep looking.

Like I mentioned earlier, I'm replacing the existing "programmable light switch".
The existing one has black and white wires,
which I connected to the black and white wires in the electric "box".

Functioned perfectly for around 10 years.

 

[Cruiser Too]

I personally never trust wire colors to indicate anything. Use a DMM.

I understand !!!

Akin... I never assume a flashing turn-signal,
on another vehicle, means they'll turn in the direction
of the indicator.

A lot of drivers:

• Forget to turn their "flashers" OFF
• Change their minds at the last second.

 

[ScoopKona]

I personally never trust wire colors to indicate anything. Use a DMM.

This, exactly.

My house has a lot of pink wires for no particular reason. Also, my insurance policy is very specific -- if for some reason my house burns down due to an electrical problem, I'd damned well better be able to produce an invoice from a licensed electrician for anything new.

While I'm quite capable of DIYing electric, I leave it to the pros to C.Y.A.

 

[hvacrsteve]

AwayWeGo:

Thanks for replying !
Your explanation makes sense to me.
.
I'm still wondering WHY the packaging boldly states:

• "Neutral-wire must be used for appliance to function" ?????

IMHO... that only confuses the issue.

I always connect White-to-White, Black-to-Black and the Green to "ground".

Thanks Again !!!

The switch is also a load itself and it requires power, that is why it says you need the neutral.
Its that simple.

 

[Cruiser Too]

The switch is also a load itself and it requires power, that is why it says you need the neutral.
Its that simple.

Thanks.

Instead of the newer digital models,
I'll simplify matters (for myself) and seek the analog baby
with one white and one black wire attached to the switch.
I'll connect those puppies to the white and black wires in my electrical box.

Saw one on eBay but they want an arm-and-a-leg for it.

 

[PigsDad]

The switch is also a load itself and it requires power, that is why it says you need the neutral.
Its that simple.

True, but it's not quite that simple. There certainly are electronic switches (controllable, timers, etc.) that work w/o a neutral by basically running a trickle current through the switch. The current is low enough that you do not notice anything on the light fixture.

Kurt