Electric vehicles among those which depreciate in value fastest

[Passepartout]

I try to approximate a mix of one third AvGas, and two thirds standard unleaded, which is sufficient lead to protect the valves and valve seats and that mixture gives higher octane than simple unleaded. AvGas has always been more expensive than unleaded, but not as high here as it is there, or at least it wasn't last summer. I do not run my convertibles in the winter. When I am out of town, I go to the jugs of "Real Lead" additive I buy at the classic car shows. I think one can still find the LRP available in the UK, which is nice, as the Lead Replacement Petrol has additives that have the same function as lead.

As to pollution, a properly tuned classic engine emits less pollution than a car with a catalytic converter that is malfunctioning. The latter do not usually get replaced as they do not effect the functioning of the engine and do not get flagged in annual inspections. At least in this state, the inspectors only look to see that the converter is present, not whether it works or not.

100 Low Lead AvGas around Raleigh varies from $6.06 SS to $8.84 FS at RDU. Road taxes of around $.86.4/gal need to be added. Only 4 states have higher fuel taxes.

Are you saying they don't actually put a probe up the tailpipe to measure nitrous oxides and unburned hydrocarbons?

Lead substitute is available on Amazon for about $35/qt or $90 a gallon.

I still maintain that supporting a 'classic', polluting, inherently unsafe (no airbags, primative suspension/brakes, etc) vehicle is a VERY expensive fool's errand, and use of such should be limited to sunny Sunday afternoons and the occasional parade, NOT as daily transportation.

But it's YOUR money and life including your passengers. Spend it as you wish.

Jim

 

[Carolinian]

100 Low Lead AvGas around Raleigh varies from $6.06 SS to $8.84 FS at RDU. Road taxes of around $.86.4/gal need to be added. Only 4 states have higher fuel taxes.

Are you saying they don't actually put a probe up the tailpipe to measure nitrous oxides and unburned hydrocarbons?

Lead substitute is available on Amazon for about $35/qt or $90 a gallon.

I still maintain that supporting a 'classic', polluting, inherently unsafe (no airbags, primative suspension/brakes, etc) vehicle is a VERY expensive fool's errand, and use of such should be limited to sunny Sunday afternoons and the occasional parade, NOT as daily transportation.

But it's YOUR money and life including your passengers. Spend it as you wish.

Jim

When it comes to safety, having stout metal around you in a classic car is superior to the plastic and thin metal of more recent cars. I remember looking at some '68 Cutlass parts at a booth at the Charlotte classic car show that had come from a donor car when the booth holder had restored a Cutlass convertible. He pointed out a very small dent in the front bumper that he said was the only damage to the donor car while his son was driving it and hit head on by a Toyota that ran a red light. The Toyota was totalled. In just about any accident between a classic car and a modern car, the latter is much more extensively damaged because it is made of less durable materials.

There is a more extensive annual inspection in the large urban counties, but in most of NC, the inspection does not test whether the catelytic converter actually works.

It has been years since I bought a lead substitute. I prefer the real stuff, which is both cheaper and more effective. I still have a couple of cases of gallon jugs of it in my garage.

If we ever have an EMP or a solar storm to the extent of the Carrington event, my MG and Cutlass will still run, but anyone with an EV will have a pile of junk on their hands, not a functional car. Those with gas engines with computers in the engine will be almost as bad off. Even those with just an electronic ignition will find their car does not start, but that is a simpler fix if one could find parts that still work and those may be in real short supply.

And when it comes to pollution, the pollution from mining the materials for an EV, especially the battery, dwarfs any pollution from a classic car.

 

[PigsDad]

When it comes to safety, having stout metal around you in a classic car is superior to the plastic and thin metal of more recent cars.

Absolute and utter bullshit. Show me one single study or report that backs up that bogus statement.

Just a simple example:

Kurt

 

[Chrispee]

This thread is comical. We have:

- Front wheel drive is more expensive to repair so I'm shopping for a Rolls Royce
- In some places in the UK charging an electric car is more expensive than filling your tank with gas (but I put avgas in my cars)
- Classic cars are so much safer than modern day cars

I get that people have good reasons why an EV isn't for them but there's a lot of bias/opinion being posted as fact here.

 

[Brett]

This thread is comical. We have:

- Front wheel drive is more expensive to repair so I'm shopping for a Rolls Royce
- In some places in the UK charging an electric car is more expensive than filling your tank with gas (but I put avgas in my cars)
- Classic cars are so much safer than modern day cars

I get that people have good reasons why an EV isn't for them but there's a lot of bias/opinion being posted as fact here.

yes

unfortunately electric cars are now "politicized"

 

[Patri]

yes

unfortunately electric cars are now "politicized"

Who caused that?

 

[Superchief]

Who caused that?

It really shouldn't be a political issue.

Most of us aren't against electric cars and are willing to consider them. However, many of us don't believe they are currently as good as other options and don't like the idea of being forced to buy them in the near future because some consider them to be 'better for the environment'. I also don't think taxpayers should pay for the charging stations, since that should be done by the private sector. Hybrids and fuel-efficient ICE cars provide a better alternative as the bugs are being worked out of EV's, and the battery issues are addressed. Most current battery raw materials need to be obtained from China and other countries and this can become a major issue at any time. Oil production, gas refining, and fuel efficiency have been improved dramatically in the past 20 years and these resources continues to be readily available in the US. Manufacturing and repair networks are already in place. There is no urgency to move away from ICE and hybrids, so let the transition be based on consumers wanting this option over their current.

 

[MrockStar]

Well said.

 

[geist1223]

What would happen if tomorrow there were no more ICE. That all lawn equipment was powered with Batteries. Our society would collapse. I remember last Summer when California asked people to not charge their vehicles during high electricity use periods. So we can not currently generate enough electricity. Now eliminate all Oil and Coal fired electricity fired Generators. Solar and Wind can not generate enough Electricity.

 

[wilma]

Several guys here clearly suffering from premature electrification described on the superbowl ad:

 

[HitchHiker71]

What would happen if tomorrow there were no more ICE. That all lawn equipment was powered with Batteries. Our society would collapse. I remember last Summer when California asked people to not charge their vehicles during high electricity use periods. So we can not currently generate enough electricity. Now eliminate all Oil and Coal fired electricity fired Generators. Solar and Wind can not generate enough Electricity.

Depends on what you mean by lawn equipment. Three years ago I swapped out all of my lawn ICE equipment and now have the complete set of Lowes Kobalt 80V lawncare series equipment - including a self-propelled lawnmower (walk behind), weedwacker/pole saw, chainsaw, hedge trimmer, leaf blower, cultivator, etc. I kept our ICE Honda lawnmower and our old ICE hedge trimmer, chainsaw, weedwacker/polesaw, etc., for a little while but eventually gave it all away to our son when he moved out. The electric lawnmower is better than any ICE lawnmower we have ever owned - it's "smart" meaning when you enter a heavy patch of high grass - it applies more power automatically - and the 6A battery mows our entire 0.65 acre lawn on a single charge (typically still has 1/4 power left actually). I have two 6A batteries, two 2.5A batteries, and one 2A battery - all original equipment with zero issues and no issues recharging and minimal battery degradation after three years. For your average homeowner just doing normal yardwork - the electric tools are better IME. I'm not talking about farming or large yards that require a riding mower here to be clear - though I know a few guys who went electric for their riding mower as well - but they are still pretty pricey IMHO.

 

[HitchHiker71]

It really shouldn't be a political issue.

Most of us aren't against electric cars and are willing to consider them. However, many of us don't believe they are currently as good as other options and don't like the idea of being forced to buy them in the near future because some consider them to be 'better for the environment'. I also don't think taxpayers should pay for the charging stations, since that should be done by the private sector. Hybrids and fuel-efficient ICE cars provide a better alternative as the bugs are being worked out of EV's, and the battery issues are addressed. Most current battery raw materials need to be obtained from China and other countries and this can become a major issue at any time. Oil production, gas refining, and fuel efficiency have been improved dramatically in the past 20 years and these resources continues to be readily available in the US. Manufacturing and repair networks are already in place. There is no urgency to move away from ICE and hybrids, so let the transition be based on consumers wanting this option over their current.

Our typical policy approach here in the USA predominantly uses a monetarist economic model. We tax those behaviors we want to discourage and we subsidize those behaviors we want to encourage. This has been the case for the past 50 years at least. We tax tobacco heavily - and increasingly heavily over time - because the science has clearly shown using tobacco is harmful not only to the user - but also secondary smoke. The majority of our populace agrees with these policies - and majority rules - more or less and in eventuality - especially when it comes to tax policy and what behaviors we collectively want to encourage and discourage. The same thing is now occurring with the transportation fleet moving to BEV. We are subsidizing behaviors/choices that we collectively want to encourage. This will become more prevalent over time moving forward, not less. What I will agree with you on, is we shouldn't be utilizing bans on those behaviors that we want to discourage - we should simply make those chosen behaviors more costly over time - just like we have done with tobacco. Want to own and operate an ICE vehicle in 2040? Go ahead - but those vehicles by that time may require modified carbon capture equipment and the cost of fuel may be prohibitive to using it on a regular basis (likely due to high gas taxes - just like we have high tobacco taxes today).

I am finally jumping in on the BEV front officially myself - we are swapping out my wife's 2017 Honda Accord EX-L for a Tesla Y Long Range before end of month - ETA on delivery date is 3/24-3/31. She test drove both the Tesla model 3 and the Tesla Y last weekend and picked out her colors and equipment and I found a model in existing inventory on Tuesday and grabbed it up.

 

[geist1223]

Several years ago I switched to 80V Greenworks Lawnmower, Dual String Trimmer, and Hedge Trimmer. I have a total of 5 80V Batteries and 3 Chargers. I am looking at the Chainsaw. I currently use a plug in Chainsaw. As I replaced an ICE Lawn Equipment I put it Curbside and someone always took it.

 

[Passepartout]

I am finally jumping in on the BEV front officially myself - we are swapping out my wife's 2017 Honda Accord EX-L for a Tesla Y Long Range before end of month - ETA on delivery date is 3/24-3/31. She test drove both the Tesla model 3 and the Tesla Y last weekend and picked out her colors and equipment and I found a model in existing inventory on Tuesday and grabbed it up.

Our #1 DS has a Model Y and LOVES it! Congrats! Do you now have, or will you shortly install a level 2 charger? I think this is the key to satisfaction.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Our #1 DS has a Model Y and LOVES it! Congrats! Do you now have, or will you shortly install a level 2 charger? I think this is the key to satisfaction.

I've got three electricians quoting us on a Tesla Wall Charger install and already ordered the wall charger - it shipped yesterday and will be here over the weekend from the looks of it. Two of the electricians were recommended by Tesla via their "certified" wall charger installation website search here:

Find an Electrician | Tesla

Most Tesla drivers choose to charge their Tesla vehicles at home overnight. To charge at home, Tesla recommends installing a Wall Connector near your parking space.

www.tesla.com

We also have one recommended electrician by one of my wife's coworkers who bought a Tesla last year that is coming out for a price quote early next week.

I'm also actually considering doing the work myself - as my father and I have run electric circuits and installed additional breakers in the past and it's really not very hard. That said - that's not permitted - and I don't want to run into any warranty work issues - worst case - due to any problems with the charger in our home - more of a CYA type thing.

 

[Superchief]

Our typical policy approach here in the USA predominantly uses a monetarist economic model. We tax those behaviors we want to discourage and we subsidize those behaviors we want to encourage. This has been the case for the past 50 years at least. We tax tobacco heavily - and increasingly heavily over time - because the science has clearly shown using tobacco is harmful not only to the user - but also secondary smoke. The majority of our populace agrees with these policies - and majority rules - more or less and in eventuality - especially when it comes to tax policy and what behaviors we collectively want to encourage and discourage. The same thing is now occurring with the transportation fleet moving to BEV. We are subsidizing behaviors/choices that we collectively want to encourage. This will become more prevalent over time moving forward, not less. What I will agree with you on, is we shouldn't be utilizing bans on those behaviors that we want to discourage - we should simply make those chosen behaviors more costly over time - just like we have done with tobacco. Want to own and operate an ICE vehicle in 2040? Go ahead - but those vehicles by that time may require modified carbon capture equipment and the cost of fuel may be prohibitive to using it on a regular basis (likely due to high gas taxes - just like we have high tobacco taxes today).

I am finally jumping in on the BEV front officially myself - we are swapping out my wife's 2017 Honda Accord EX-L for a Tesla Y Long Range before end of month - ETA on delivery date is 3/24-3/31. She test drove both the Tesla model 3 and the Tesla Y last weekend and picked out her colors and equipment and I found a model in existing inventory on Tuesday and grabbed it up.

View attachment 74359

I'm not convinced that EV's will provide an overall positive improvement to the environment (including human) over efficient hybrids that utilize fuels that are readily available in the US. Additionally, what happens if the major battery resource providing countries decide not to sell to the US at a fair price.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I'm not convinced that EV's will provide an overall positive improvement to the environment (including human) over efficient hybrids that utilize fuels that are readily available in the US. Additionally, what happens if the major battery resource providing countries decide not to sell to the US at a fair price.

PHEVs are included within the current regs for transition purposes. In other words you can get the full $7500 tax credit not just for BEVs but also for PHEVs (plug-in hybrid ICE vehicles). So the tax incentives currently in place are actually in alignment with your preference. The bans that some states have passed to stop all ICE vehicle sales stand apart at least from the federal tax incentive model that was passed with the big infrastructure bill last year. I'm glad for this - as I agree with you that it should be a both/and approach and not an either/or approach. This is especially the case for the folks who live in more rural locations where charging stations and even at home charging present big challenges. Just one anecdotal example - I have a friend who lives on a farmette, roughly 13 acres - and his home is located fairly far away from the highway where the utilities pull from. He only has a 150amp main panel in his home (built circa 190x), and would have to have a larger electric line run from the highway pole - and his current line is buried underground from the source to his home. It would be like 50-70k to have his entire electric run upgraded and a new panel installed. That is prohibitively expensive for him. There are many other examples like this out there. In his situation he's looking at installing a small solar farm since he has the land - but that's not cheap either - likely around the same cost, possibly more, than having his electric utility line upgraded. So a PHEV is really the best option for him if/when he's ready.

 

[TUGBrian]

Several years ago I switched to 80V Greenworks Lawnmower, Dual String Trimmer, and Hedge Trimmer. I have a total of 5 80V Batteries and 3 Chargers. I am looking at the Chainsaw. I currently use a plug in Chainsaw. As I replaced an ICE Lawn Equipment I put it Curbside and someone always took it.

also have the greenworks/kobalt 80v stuff, and while i love the tools...ive had very poor luck with batteries going thru 5 of them in the past few years alone. while they are warrantied for 3 years, its a hassle to get it done especially with the frequency ive had to do so.

I have slowly just converted to the electric yard tools offered by other brands that all utilize my existing 20v power garage type tool batteries. with the adapters sold on amazon for 15 bucks or so, its easy to buy just about any tool from any brand that tickles your fancy and still only maintain one set of manufacturer batteries (dewalt/milwaulkee etc)

actually been quite pleased with the harbor freight bauer stuff (using dewalt batteries and an adapter)!

 

[emeryjre]

The option for at home charging does not exist for many potential owners of EV's. People in apartments with no garages or even assigned parking are the most obvious. EV' use and ownership is growing, but there are still plenty of issues to be resolved. As I have mentioned before, the environmental lobby is strong, well organized, and well funded. We are nowhere close to widespread adoption of EV's for everyone. Speaking of oil, the big project in Alaska was given the go ahead. The first thing that happened is a series of lawsuits to stop the project.

 

[HitchHiker71]

The option for at home charging does not exist for many potential owners of EV's. People in apartments with no garages or even assigned parking are the most obvious. EV' use and ownership is growing, but there are still plenty of issues to be resolved. As I have mentioned before, the environmental lobby is strong, well organized, and well funded. We are nowhere close to widespread adoption of EV's for everyone. Speaking of oil, the big project in Alaska was given the go ahead. The first thing that happened is a series of lawsuits to stop the project.

Historically once a disruptive product hits 10% market share - the amount of time it takes to hit 80-90% market share is on average only ten years. BEVs hit 10% of global new vehicle sales this year. Of course, past results aren't necessarily indicative of future performance, but we do study history for good reason at the same time. I suspect that by 2033 the adoption rate for BEVs as a percentage of new vehicle sales will be higher than most folks expect, especially the skeptics.

 

[emeryjre]

There are still many issues to be resolved. I am a proponent of electrical vehicles. My primary driver is a 2017 Prius Plug In Hybrid. Bought brand new. I am unable to install solar panels at my current location. So my energy costs are high per KWH in Southern California. I am becoming a big fan of sodium battery technology and am waiting for the latest rollout from CATL. The delivery of these batteries from the world's largest maker of Lithium batteries, could be a game changer for EV pricing. Also would solve a lot of arguments about the environmental impact of Lithium. In Australia, the world's largest producer of lithium, the environmental impact is not felt to be as big an issue. So the next 10 years will see big changes. GM is laying off most of the salaried employees to save costs. EV's are far less expensive to manufacture.