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Do we have a right to owners' roster?

ThaiChef

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rickandcindy23 said:
Jay, the by-laws don't say anything about the board having records, if I am reading them correctly. I went over some of the bylaws a few months ago, when I found out that our resort has a ten-year exclusive contract with II that the former president signed. We are not allowed to use any exchange company except II. I thought the bylaws might give me some clue as to how the president has enough power to keep 1300 people from using DAE or any other company that would give us more options. There was nothing about the president's power in the bylaws.

At that time, I asked for a copy of the signed contract with II to look over myself. The management company said they could get that to me but it would take some time. I was trying to get on the board at the time and had several exchange companies willing to give free weeks for a drawing at our annual meeting. The management company stopped me because of the contract with II. I really want to see this contract, but two months later, no contract. I haven't forgotten and will ask to see it at our next meeting, whenever that will be.

The board members are nice people, they really are. But they do love their positions, making decisions for everyone and giving no say to anyone. My real problem has been with the communications between the board and the owners. Aside from less than a page of minutes from the annual meeting, all information, all year long, comes from the management company. Most of that is generic information: "The weather has been great here, the summer warmer than usual......." Lah dee dah!

Cindy,

I've scanned through the Colorado state statutes and I don't see anything which would suggest that a director has any special rights where corporate records are concerned. In my case, the WorldMark bylaws not only give the right of members to access the member list, they give their directors what they characterize as an absolute right....although as I've written before, I know of at least one director who was refused access to the list.

Good luck in your quest :)

--Jay
 

timeos2

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The duties of a Board member would require access

ThaiChef said:
Cindy,

I've scanned through the Colorado state statutes and I don't see anything which would suggest that a director has any special rights where corporate records are concerned. In my case, the WorldMark bylaws not only give the right of members to access the member list, they give their directors what they characterize as an absolute right....although as I've written before, I know of at least one director who was refused access to the list.

Good luck in your quest :)

--Jay

You don't need anything in the statutes. The very nature of being on a Board means that the member has a fudicary duty to all owners they represent. That would include the knowledge of any contract the Association has entered into. You may not be able to change it - you also might be able to - but there would certainly be an absolute right for any Board member that requests to see any contract to do so. The Board IS the manager of the Association and the ultimate responsible entity NOT the management company that they pay to run things.

Cindy - do not let them bully you. Don't wait until the meeting. Tell them you want to see the contract now and put the request in writing. Give them 7 business days to deliver by mail, fax or email image. They must give you that information and if they refuse there is something really underhanded going on that you need to get out in the open.
 

rickandcindy23

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I am getting confused. :confused: So many are telling me not to make waves, that I am new, or not to be a thorn in the side of the board, but now you are saying that I shouldn't let them bully me. I don't know what to do. :)

I really do want to make a change but the job I want is secretary, and I am now in a generic position they call "director." I want to communicate news to the owners.
 

timeos2

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Treat it like it you have a right because you do

rickandcindy23 said:
I am getting confused. :confused: So many are telling me not to make waves, that I am new, or not to be a thorn in the side of the board, but now you are saying that I shouldn't let them bully me. I don't know what to do. :)

I really do want to make a change but the job I want is secretary, and I am now in a generic position they call "director." I want to communicate news to the owners.
Cindy - No waves, no Board title needed. Just a simple and valid request from a sitting Board member for information you are clearly entitled to have. The only reason it would become a battle is if the management makes it one and then you would have every reason to get as nasty as it takes. Remember the Board of which you are 1 member runs the Association. Even the other Board members do not have any right to keep information out of your hands. Be nice but be very very firm in your request. Put it in writing and give them a reasonable deadline to produce. Let them know you are very serious.
 

rickandcindy23

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The owner that wants the list just contacted me

I guess our management company is choosing to put this owner off rather than giving an answer. My understanding was that the HOA's lawyer believes that we must allow any owner to review all records, which he believed included an owner roster.

I then understood that we were taking some "state legislature" lawyer's advice not to show the list to anyone due to divorce and child custody issues.

The guy deserves an answer, one way or another. I think we will be breaking the law if we do not provide the list.
 

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So you HOA lawyer said yes to giving a list of owners, but a boardmember didn't like that one, so sought another answer which has something to do with divorce and child custody? How odd is that. When ts owners are not interested you have managment companies ruling the roost to their own benefit no doubt.



rickandcindy23 said:
I guess our management company is choosing to put this owner off rather than giving an answer. My understanding was that the HOA's lawyer believes that we must allow any owner to review all records, which he believed included an owner roster.

I then understood that we were taking some "state legislature" lawyer's advice not to show the list to anyone due to divorce and child custody issues.

The guy deserves an answer, one way or another. I think we will be breaking the law if we do not provide the list.
 

rickandcindy23

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This situation just gets more complicated

But the board members are making it that way. This is a simple matter of giving an owner what the law requires and what our bylaws say to be true.
 

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Nothing with timeshare managment and the boards is simple as it should be in certain situations. Our one association was suppose to have an annual audit, made available to all, but it seems they apparently weren't done come to find out. Or if they were the current developer/management company says they weren't and are fighting release of records. It's got to make a person wonder.
 

rickandcindy23

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An update for those of you who are watching:

The owner (that wants the roster) had his lawyer send his request to the management company. The management company called it a threatening letter, which was forwarded to me. It did not look threatening to me and quoted Colorado law, but the management company has taken the position that the owner can come to the resort, 1 1/2 hours away from his home (I know because he lives near me) and look at the records but cannot copy or take them from the premises. That will not be sufficient for the owner, nor do I agree, but I am one vote against four and the management company.

I think it is wise to choose our battles carefully and not wage a war over something this insignificant, especially if we are the ones breaking the laws, which clearly give him the right to such information.

How ridiculous is this anyway? I would like to hear your opinions because this situation is making me crazy.
 

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rickandcindy23 said:
I think it is wise to choose our battles carefully and not wage a war over something this insignificant, especially if we are the ones breaking the laws, which clearly give him the right to such information.

If, as you say, what the management want to do is against state law you need to say so at the next meeting and suggest that they consult with their own lawyers. That way at least it should be on record that you were opposed to their action if it does get dragged into court.
The statement you make above is simple and clear. Make that point to them as well - some of them may come over to your way of thinking if they see that what you are actually trying to do is protect the resort from potentially expensive law suits.
 

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I
m with Keith on this one. Make sure it is in the minutes of your next meeting that you think the resort is in the wrong. If the owner takes this to court, as a member of the board, you could be a party to that lawsuit, and judgement could be made against you. At least if you go on the record as disagreeing, you may be able to insulate yourself.

I don't know if your resort has liability insurance on the board (directors & officers or D&O insurance) but if not, you could be held liable for any "damages" the court awards. Also, if not, you as an owner will be paying in the form of increased maintenance fees if damages are awarded, to cover anything paid by the HOA.
 

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Owners List

People are afraid to give out any information now since 9/11, however, one can usually find other owners by researching the property records at the county courthouse.
 

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Mel said:
...you could be held liable for any "damages" the court awards.
Probably not. Most state statutes protect members of a non-profit organization who act in their capacity as officers or directors from liability for negligence and other inappropriate acts, as long as they do so based on their judgment, rather than out of vindictiveness or some other nefarious reason. Certainly, if the board has received some legal advice supporting their position, that would further insulate them from liability.

The Colorado law on this issue is embodied in Section 7-30-106 of the Colorado Revised Statutes.
 

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Are all timeshares considered non-profit? Aren't the developers who originally sit on a board, before it's sold out, in this for a profit?

We have a board that is being sued by an owner for the last election process right now, as I just found out. So until the court decides your going to have to defend yourself right? :confused:


Dave M said:
Probably not. Most state statutes protect members of a non-profit organization who act in their capacity as officers or directors from liability for negligence and other inappropriate acts, as long as they do so based on their judgment, rather than out of vindictiveness or some other nefarious reason. Certainly, if the board has received some legal advice supporting their position, that would further insulate them from liability.

The Colorado law on this issue is embodied in Section 7-30-106 of the Colorado Revised Statutes.
 

rickandcindy23

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Timeos and Dave M warned me, but did I listen? No, so now I am the bad guy.

The management company has decided to send a full roster of owners to this guy, but I had to stand my ground. I may have been a little rude. :( I am kind of ashamed of myself, frankly. I was angry. I am one of those people who never, ever stands up to people in person, but I can sure write an angry email. I feel just terrible.

I may have used a few defamatory words: ridiculous, idiocy, asinine (though I never use profanities) while defending my opinion against the excuses one board member had for denying the request. They definitely took offense, at least three of the four other board members who have had these positions for 3 years, 10 years and 24 years. I think the oldest two should step down, personally, but I didn't say that, which is the only thing I didn't say to offend these people.

My frustrations were building up after huge assessments that have never been explained completely to most members, plus there is a total lack of communication between the board and the owners. Basically, there is no communication. They allow the management to answer all questions, even though they are supposed to represent the owners.

Anyway, it will be difficult for me to even go to a board meeting, I was so "in their faces", though I have not been invited to one yet and have been a member of the board for four months. Maybe they do everything via email and everything will be okay. :) Or maybe they don't want me at their meetings and have chosen not to extend an invitation my way.

They had to be prepared for me. From the supposed exclusive contract with II that I have never seen and asked for in November; my emails complaining about huge assessments with no explanation; then this issue over an owners' roster, all of them knew where I stood on all things "exclusive."

I still would ask any people who are opposed to a fellow owner getting your name and phone number: If the current board is running your timeshare resort into the ground, wouldn't you want to have the right to contact other owners to band against those with whom you disagree? Would you want someone to take a stand against a board that is out of control with your money?

It would not be in the best interests of any resort and its owners to have a board that gets all of the proxies, guaranteeing themselves board positions for 24 years. Wouldn't you agree with that? How old are their ideas, anyway? How comfortable do you have to be in a position to want to keep it that long? The original president just stepped down one year ago and chose his replacement, a person that he knows from his place of employment, a person he knew would continue his legacy. I think that is wrong, but this board can choose who they take. Unfortunately for them, I guess, they took me for this open position. I didn't want them to regret their decision, but I know they are wishing someone else, anyone else, would have volunteered. Believe me, they would not have taken me.
 
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You did what you could and thought was right!

I actually am in a timeshare group with which I am disatisfied and I would DEARLY like to be able to communicate with each and every member to express my level of disatisfaction!

However, apart from the fact that were I to ask for a roster the company would surely not provide it - I think they would probably guess its purpose ! :D - I personally would be unhappy to think that my personal information had been given out to someone else without my authorization or knowledge.

So hopefully everything turns out OK for you in the end.

Best regards,
 

rickandcindy23

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Names and phone numbers are not personal information.

Personal information is not going to be divulged. No one will see a credit card or social security number, or your kids names or your birthdays. That is personal information. If a salesperson calls, you can hang up. Our phone numbers, addresses and names are everywhere out there. Ours is in the phone book.

If a timeshare salesperson got your name from an owners' list at his home resort that he got legally, you can "just say no." The real problem is not being able to get a list. That is where your rights are really being violated. I think it is time more owners start asking for a list of fellow owners. I would like to see this become a trend, not because I want sales calls (we have a no-call list in Colorado, so if you solicit, by phone, someone that is on the no-call list, you can get huge fines), but because if an owner is more in touch with what is going on at any of my resorts and wants to get my proxy, I am going to give that person my vote over a board member that may be causing the problem.

At our resort, the board members have just become too complacent. They allow the management to do anything and everything. That is what comes with being a board member for one or more decades. The people are very nice, they really are, but I wanted to be a part of a board that thinks outside the box. They're stuck in the box, headfirst. :eek:

Our assessments have totaled $1,532 in recent years, with some of that still being paid with the regular MF's for the next four years. When the meeting minutes were sent to the owners, the secretary explained: "a week of dues is less than one night's stay in Hawaii." That was all the explanation we got from our own board. What is that supposed to mean to the owners on fixed incomes? The management company's owner added: "The average dues for a two bedroom in the western region is $583 per year based on 188 resorts tracked by Timeshare Today." I emailed Timesharing Today, since I have written many articles for them, and was told that no such survey or report was ever published. So I asked our resort manager what he was talking about. He said he did it himself by looking at the classifieds. That's not a valid poll/survey. :rolleyes:

This is the garbage they sent out to justify a huge assessment. If they would have said tiles and kitchen cabinets are falling apart, windows no longer close, siding is deteriorated, shingles need replaced, etc., chimneys are crumbling, parking lot needs retarred, with a cost of each item, divided by the number of weeks per unit, then people would have understood better. As it was, I had people who were reading my tirades on the resort's BBS contacting me, asking me what was up with the maintenance fees.

I had lots of proxies for the last annual meeting in October, to help me with my election to the board. I didn't need them. The board didn't announce the number of proxies they had and just started the meeting. That is against our bylaws. They are supposed to check to see if there are enough proxies to do business, and announce the results, but they always skip that. What we need to write into the bylaws are term limits. All we need to say is: a decade or more on the board is not allowed. They're just a little too comfy.

I have no idea why the guy wanted the list. He never told the board what he would do with the names and numbers, but I think he was just testing us to see if we would obey the law, which is clear. He is going to get the list. He has to pay for the expenses of copying and mailing it, but he is getting what he wanted. I may have to resign from the board because I lost my temper. That is probably my next move, even my husband thinks so. The board has already decided that I am probably in cahoots with the owner that wanted the list. They think he and I are planning to "stack the board." As though that is the worst thing that could happen--new board members with crazy ideas. :rolleyes: Those words, "stack the board," are directly from an email I got from the board member that has been on for ten years. He thought I was too passionate and must have a reason. Well, I was fighting for the guy's rights, which made me feel some passion, but I had no intentions of stacking the board or in getting rid of anyone. Now if volunteers step forward for this next year's meeting, I would like to replace two of the board members with some new faces, but I have no power to do it.

Anyway, I wanted to know if anyone really thinks it would be horrible for a fellow owner to have their name, address and phone number. You need to give a valid reason. What is the worst that can happen? If he/she is willing to pay 39 cents to mail you a letter, I would bet you would be interested in what is in that letter. :D
 

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Do we have a right to owner's roster??

We have asked for the owners list as well and we're told the State of Florida statutes say that it is a privacy issue, and that is why they can't give it to us.
Our purpose for the list is to be able to communicate with the other owners.
We are having alot of problems questions and financial issues with our timeshare and some of the other owners need to know these things.
We also are very close to some of the older owners and like keeping in touch.
What are they so afraid of?
They want to keep us disconnected so we don't share information about them and what they are not doing!!
So I believe it is an owners right to the information.
There are realtors that send stuff in the mail all the time to try to sell or list our timeshares, where did they get the information, it is public information, but very difficult and time consuming to get it at the county office or online.
The less the owners talk to each other, the better off the management company is.
Our manager has every member of his staff in his office, one of his family members, very curious and scary.
The board members with the exception of one (who replaced a member who died), have been there for many years.
We have had very little maintenance done in the last 3 or 4 years (this management co. took over in 1999 and was voted in by one of the oldest board members) and all of a sudden after alot of us complained about the deterioration of our resort, he has put out a special assessment of $200.00 per unit, (for me that is $1,200.00 as I own 6 weeks) and I wouldn't mind that if we were getting new furniture and finally maintaining our resort the way that it should have been maintained, but my question is, where is the last 3 or 4 years maintenance fees reserved for these things??
This is $397,800.00
We have 39 units in our resort and 1989 owners.
we have to pay the assessment in 30 days or it is delinquent in 60 days, and then in dec. of course our regular maintenance fees are due.
Plus when questioning an audit that was done only by information provided by the management company, nothing added up and we were told by an attorney who actually represented the management company but paid by the association, not to contact ANY of the companies that was hired by the management company to do work at our resort.
Any suggestions by anyone??
Anyone know an attorney who knows timeshare law in Florida???
I am running for the board, but have NO chance of getting in because this manager counts ALL the votes on everything and until I requested it, never even shared the amount of votes on any matter.
Could I write up my resume and ask for peoples votes or proxies, give the letters to the management company all stamped and sealed and ask them to send them out to the owners (since we don't have the list) and then have the proxies sent directly to me? and then take them to the annual meeting when the votes are counted?
As you can see, I think we have some real problems here and need any and all the help we can get.
Thanks in advance,
Sachy
 

timeos2

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Quick answer - no you are not.

Despite your detailed post I will answer in an abbreviated form.

While you do have a right to contact other owners at your resort you do not have a right to the actual owners listing. Access to that is strictly controlled as it is a goldmine for someone who wanted to pitch services or a personal agenda - think a resale group or a developer of a new resort for examples. So if you want to send a mailing to all owners you need to pay to have the resort do it. That usually means working through the Association and proving there is a legitimate need to contact all owners. And the cost would most likely be quite high.

My consumer advocate side says this isn't right but experience says free access even limited to owners to the list would be abused. The State of Florida apparently agrees that it isn't desirable as they have placed strict regulations on access and use of those lists.

On the other hand your problems sound serious and you are right to attempt to address them. In the past the use of web sites, chat groups and even BBS sites like TUG have helped owners (including me) expose and correct that type of management abuse. Use every tool you have but, unless you plan to work through the resort, the owners list will not be one of them.
 
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AwayWeGo

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[triennial - points]
Can You Look Up Everybody In The County Deed Books?

timeos2 said:
Use every tool you have but, unless you plan to work through the resort, the owners list will not be one of them.
Labor-intensive as it surely would be, maybe you could create your own list of owners by researching all the publicly recorded ownership deeds down at the county courthouse. With a little luck, the deeds would be searchable on-line, so you'd be spending time at the terminal rather than time with the physical deed books. Either way, it would be a daunting task.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 

Miss Marty

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Q:


Do we have a right to owners' roster?

See thread regarding this subject in the Tug Lounge

Owners' Right to Inspect and Copy Association Records
 
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