DestinationClubForums.com members please note

[PerryM]

For those of you who post on DestinationClubForums.com please be aware that they sanitize the posts there.

I’ve had 2 posts removed and have been banned from their wonderful web site – I’ve attached a screen copy of my post that was removed and I was banned.

You really need to consider that what you are seeing there is totally one sided and please don’t make decisions based upon one-sided knowledge.

I will not comment further on this topic – this has nothing to do with me but with a biased website promoting the Destination Club industry’s view point.

Be very careful.

Bye.

 

[TarheelTraveler]

In fairness, I post on both websites and have always been pretty vocal about how many clubs are run irresponsibly, but have never been censored except for one post (out of hundreds). In this one post, I called out one of the specific clubs by name. However, my general point and my explanations of the crazy economics have never been censored and never really denied.

While I absolutely understand the frustration from many uncalled for beatdowns that you and others (including myself) have received, the post you attached is a little inflammatory IMHO.

 

[DosMasCervesos]

I TOLD YOU SO!!!

Really Perry, now what grade are we in? My grade school kids know better than to gloat like that.

Matt

 

[PerryM]

Gloat; who me?

Really Perry, now what grade are we in? My grade school kids know better then to gloat like that.

Matt

A number of folks listened to my warnings from 2 years ago - they have contacted me and thanked me for my warnings. Gloat; yep I helped a number of folks from making a horrible decision and am proud of it.

So what did some of you do?

Political Correctness is just a form of censorship and thankfully I don't suffer from that.

I've presented clear and concise choices, this morning, for HCC members - what have some of you guys done?

Come on folks, put that thinking cap on and help some folks; worrying about feelings might feel good but how about some actual help for these folks in this mess?

 

[DosMasCervesos]

Gloat - <verb> Contemplate or dwell on one's own success or another's misfortune with smugness or malignant pleasure.

If "I TOLD YOU SO!!" isn't gloating in this case, then we must live on different universes. I kind-of hope that is the case to tell you the truth, as that would provide some celestial distance between you and me.

Do you seriously think starting a post like that in bold is going to be constructive? Do you think any HCC members are going to read your entire post? Nope. You posted that to feel good and smug about yourself. Hope you do.

Matt

 

[PerryM]

Let me get this straight – you don’t like my statement “I told you so”, which is true but say nothing of the selective censorship that DestinationClubForums.com practices.

Ok, I guess we all have our own set of priorities – apparently we view this debacle in vastly different ways.

The reason for my provocative post is to call attention that the web site is deciding what views can and can’t be discussed. Folks are probably making decisions about what they see on that web site. Opposing views are never presented.

I guess I could gloat over that too – heck; I will. I am gloating over the fact that I got around the censorship at that web site and have alerted HCC members that there are other paths to seeking a solution to HCC than the ones HCC proposed and that web site endorse.

 

[wdinner]

in poor taste

As one who as been around this board and the destination board for awhile, mostly reading and rarely posting, I totally agree that your post added nothing to the discussion and had no redeeming value. Though maybe, just maybe they simply should have moved it to a separate thread for blubbering gloating big heads. (not that this post is much better).

Have to say I have more respect now for the Destination Club moderators than before.

 

[DosMasCervesos]

Let me get this straight – you don’t like my statement “I told you so”, which is true but say nothing of the selective censorship that DestinationClubForums.com practices.

I think your post was not constructive in any manner and was rude. I've seen many folks on DCF.com that question DCC business plans and financials and never have their posts deleted or censored.

I don't have any real opinion on the fact that your post was deleted. I don't think many HCC members are going to read past your gloating comment, so it was pointless. Maybe it shouldn't have been deleted from an open forum policy perspective. But then again you shouldn't have deleted all of your Planet Hollywood Tower posts a long time ago either. I guess we live in a delete-happy digital society.

I think this discussion is done. I thought your post was rude, gloating, and pointless. You think that you were starting some serious discourse with HCC members. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Matt

 

[PerryM]

As one who as been around this board and the destination board for awhile, mostly reading and rarely posting, I totally agree that your post added nothing to the discussion and had no redeeming value. Though maybe, just maybe they simply should have moved it to a separate thread for blubbering gloating big heads. (not that this post is much better).

Have to say I have more respect now for the Destination Club moderators than before.

So the fact that HCC decided to allow their members to sell their memberships on eBay for $1+ isn't something to debate? No other DC provides for this - was this cooked up this past weekend as a "bone" to throw to the members?

I believe HCC has made a terminal mistake that has insured their company goes out of business. I am alerting HCC members that no matter what HCC does and what they pay in MFs those $1 eBay auctions will destroy their club. Why should anyone buy a membership from HCC when you can get them for $1 on eBay?

I guess I could gloat over that revelation too - oh heck I gloating at that one too.

:whoopie:

 

[RoshiGuy]

Perry, I have enjoyed and appreciated many of your posts regarding DCs. You offered a valuable point-of-view, one which has turned out to be correct.

That said, your current post seems pointless. Why stoop to this level? Of course you told us so, why rub it in?

Now if you were to offer some perspective on what current HCC members ought to think about moving forward, keeping in mind that all membership deposits are sunk costs, that would be constructive and I'd appreciate it.

 

[Steamboat Bill]

I have been pretty quiet on TUG and other online forums for the past few months as I have been very involved in several business ventures that require more of my free time and I am honestly tired of the online BS that often see. I still lurk on several sites, but have not been active in many posts.

However, I agree that your post was not appropriate at this time. HCC is at a serious fork in the road and they have a 50% chance to survive and enjoy awesome travel and your post only guarantees a 100% loss of membership fee.

This is similar to the stock market crash and if you posted how happy you were that you got out at the top and went to fixed income -- it would not help people that are NOW down 40-50%.

Here is a link to a thread started by Pwrshift
http://www.destinationclubforums.com/f31/discussion-forum-policy-1423.html

I believe your post was deleted by travelguy

Here is a quote from the DC4MS.com admin

For the record, I have not read PerryMs post and it was deleted my one of my moderators this morning. It should have been soft deleted so I can undelete it if we think it is appropriate.

We had a private discussion about trying to keep this "hot" issue about HCC in check and for the HCC members benefit.

There will be a time (after November 15?) that anyone can post anything about HCC they want, but now is NOT the time for non-HCC members to post non-constructive messages about the present situation.

I really hope HCC survives this major event for them as if they "succeed" then the post would be moot and if they fail then it will damage the entire Destination Club industry and then PerryM and anyone else can post whatever they want about the situation.

One danger of free speech is yelling fire in a crowded building and causing panic.

The current HCC problem and solution needs to be worked out with HCC management and their members and I hope this forum can help them do that.

I don't recall ever deleting any members post (other than a TTT duplicate post) and don;t think we ever banned anyone before.

PerryM is an intelligent person that can provide a valuable perspective and is welcome here, but I want to limit the name-calling and blame game until November when HCC makes their final decision to go forward or file bankrupty.

There are 375 HCC members that have paid $20k-$70 each to join a club that have an opportunity to either help save the club or watch 100% of their membership fees dissapear. I want these forums to be used to help HCC come up with a solution to their problems, not cause massive panic that could have a negative impact on the entire industry.

I have trust in our volunteer moderators and hope they "soft delete" any posts they think are innapropriate rather than hard delete them. I can't be online 24/7 and have to rely on others to help make judgment calls.

 

[vineyarder]

So the fact that HCC decided to allow their members to sell their memberships on eBay for $1+ isn't something to debate? No other DC provides for this - was this cooked up this past weekend as a "bone" to throw to the members?

I believe HCC has made a terminal mistake that has insured their company goes out of business. I am alerting HCC members that no matter what HCC does and what they pay in MFs those $1 eBay auctions will destroy their club. Why should anyone buy a membership from HCC when you can get them for $1 on eBay?

But PerryM - That was YOUR idea to allow members to sell memberships to whomever they want for whatever they choose:

What the Destination Club industry needs to do:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Buy condos/resorts around the country/world and deposit the deeds into a Master Trust which is 100% paid for by cash and owned by the members of the Club.

Sell Points in this club which cover the cost of buying the condos and marketing expenses. Buy as many Points as you need for your vacation needs.

Allow the members to not only use the condos in the Club but 3,500 more resorts around the world.

Allow members to sell their memberships anytime they want and to anyone they want and for any amount of money they can get.

Holy cow, I just described WorldMark and I already own a bunch of Points (credits) – I’m a DC owner and didn’t even know it.
__________________
My good friend Master Instructor Tommy Nguyen R.I.P.

Perry

 

[PerryM]

Wow! Lots of interest!!

My purpose, in this thread, was to announce to HCC folks, on the DestinationClubForums.com, were are NOT getting all sides of the debate at the other web site.

I need help keeping this thread up top and lively in this section of TUG - Thanks to all of you worried about gloating and I'll gladly discuss all aspects of it with you guys if you want.

I have presented options to HCC members in another thread here but I want this thread #1 so I'll post individual components here.

The DC industry must be acknowledged that it was the typical Ponzi scheme - it can't survive without new members constantly paying higher and higher fees to enter, with early members enjoying the fruits of the last members fees.

If new members can't be found then the scheme folds. That's what's happening right now to HCC and other DCs - new members dried up and all the leveraging of real estate that is worth much less is now imploding. The lending institutions realize this and may demand more money down if the loans are to continue. Villas that were rented/leased may be just cut off by not paying the bills.

The DC industry was really what I originally defined it to be:

"8 folks get together and buy a rich guy a condo that they then pay rent to use".

They got nothing but sweet promises from the sales guy over the phone. No deed, no promissory note, nothing but the ability to pay rent and follow their rules.

What can an individual HCC member do? Pool their interests with likeminded owners - that is what the other site supposedly is all about - except condescending opinions are deleted and thus HCC members might get the idea that this will just "blow over".

Many early HCC members have made out like bandits – this is to be expected. Then there are those HCC members who looked at the low membership fee as a “throw away” item – they really don’t care.

However the one year, up front, MF that is now demanded by HCC should give all HCC members concern – even those from the above.

On the topic of freely allowing memberships to be bought and sold on eBay:
This makes sense ONLY if the membership includes ownership rights to underlying real estate. That's not the case here; HCC owners own nothing but an infinite stream of MFs that are promised to go much higher.

 

[BocaBum99]

I'd actually have to agree with Perry. These memberships are now worthless. With the current ownership structure, members have liabilities with no assets.

What I would recommend that the HCC owners do is restructure the Club into a limited partnership or REIT. Give everyone equity ownership into the restrucutred Club based on their ownership. Then, they can report earnings according to the relevant laws and owners can buy and sell their ownerships on the open market.

These non-equity ownerships need to be liquidated and turned into someone that gives members a real ownership interest.

If enough owners support this type of idea, then they will have to go for it because the alternative is shutting it down completely.

Don't go for the plan. Demand equity participation. Even the government asking for equity in its bailout plan. You should as well.

 

[Steamboat Bill]

The DC industry must be acknowledged that it was the typical Ponzi scheme - it can't survive without new members constantly paying higher and higher fees to enter, with early members enjoying the fruits of the last members fees.

Perry, it is 100% irresponsible to condemn the entire industry as a Ponzi scheme.

Was HCC irresponsible? Perhaps, but it was never set up as a Ponzi scheme. Christian actually had to lay off his two brothers just to keep the company running....hardly describes something Ponzi.

What I would recommend that the HCC owners do is restructure the Club into a limited partnership or REIT. Give everyone equity ownership into the restrucutred Club based on their ownership. Then, they can report earnings according to the relevant laws and owners can buy and sell their ownerships on the open market.

These non-equity ownerships need to be liquidated and turned into someone that gives members a real ownership interest.

This is a great idea and has merit, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Perhaps only the equity clubs will survive, I don't know. Perhaps the industry really needs to be regulated. I am sure ARDA is going to freak if they go bankrupt.

 

[PerryM]

Hmmmm what's for dinner....

I once said that the entire DC industry was at risk with the leveraging they were doing – (ok, there are a few DCs that are equity based). We saw 2 years ago the original DC go belly up and many said it was a “one of a kind” thing" – it would never happen again.

Well the entire DC industry is circling the toilet and will be flushed into the “another bright idea” cesspool of ideas that just don’t work.

I don’t fault any one person or company – it sounded good to me 4 years ago when I stumbled on DCs but after analyzing them I came up with the idea that DCs are great schemes for folks who start them and are highly risky for those who join.

I don’t know, and can’t even guess, when the sub-prime/mortgage fiasco will stop its rampage – but DCs are so highly leveraged that they just can’t survive a bottoming out and recovery. Unless Uncle Sam starts writing checks to DC’s to buy their mortgages. (Who knows, a little money in a politician's hands goes far).

Sure as the sun comes up tomorrow the drive-by media will find DCs a juicy target and start writing articles of how they warned us this would happen – can’t you just read the headlines. Will the DC market survive this (all those rich folks getting screwed is great fodder for the news hounds)?

I am guessing DC’s are toast and they will be recycled and repackages and be in vogue in a few years from now. The folks who started the DCs will go on to new ventures until it’s time to dust off the legal documents and replace Destination Club with some other phrase.

It’s how business works – the weak get eaten by the strong.

 

[Pit]

 

[BocaBum99]

Was HCC irresponsible? Perhaps, but it was never set up as a Ponzi scheme. Christian actually had to lay off his two brothers just to keep the company running....hardly describes something Ponzi.

My definition of Ponzi Scheme = 2 men enters, 1 man leaves. That by definition made it a Ponzi scheme.

Perhaps Christian was a terrible Ponzi Scheme artist, so he made no money. That's a different question.

 

[Steamboat Bill]

I do not believe HCC or the entire DC insustry is a Ponzi scheme. If that is your belief, so be it.

However, any private golf club and/or Spa resort that sells membership with a 2:1 model or more would be defined as ponzi.

Also, Ponzi created his scheme to defraud investors and trick investors and I doubt anyone would create a destination club with the sole intention on defrauding a group of people. There are much easier scams to run than that.

I have never seen anyone call Exclusive Resorts a Ponzi sceme and they are the largest club.

The final chapter on HCC has not been written and I am not their defender as I am in the same boat as all other members. It was great while it lasted and I hope that it survives so we can continue to enjoy their services.

I never stated that this is an investment for anyone, but I did think they provided good value for the price. I have been on five HCC trips and they really did change the way I vacation. I have Mexico on the books for June and NYC for July and lost Tuscany over the summer as that property is being deleted.

There are many industries (i.e. Enron) that hosed their employees by raiding their pensions and that is a CRIME.

I simply think HCC got caught up in the financial tsuami that is taking down much larger players and this is their attempt to salvage a tough situation. I think the way they are handeling it is much better than simply announcing a bankruptcy, but the news is still panful.

Don't be surprised if a timeshare or fractional company goes bust in the near future and then you will see how little a deed is worth, but that will be a separate story.

===============================

I can't keep up with all the different forums and there are many more HCC members at www.destinationclubforums.com so I will concentrate my posts over there.

 

[PerryM]

Size does matter - just like those eMails say...

Social Security is the greatest Ponzi scheme of all time - one that will eventually force our government into bankruptcy (unless they confiscate IRAs).

Folks don't think of SS as a ponzi but new folks pay for those of us who will retire soon - keep fit and exercise everyone.

The DC industry is just a variant of Ponzi - a more 21st century version.

Bill is right about timeshares - they too may suffer at the hands of the tsunami that is overtaking just about everyone who owns any real estate holdings.

However, I'd bet the 5-man DC companies are wiped out before the thousand-man Marriotts.

Size does matter.

 

[tombo]

Perry, it is 100% irresponsible to condemn the entire industry as a Ponzi scheme.

Was HCC irresponsible? Perhaps, but it was never set up as a Ponzi scheme. Christian actually had to lay off his two brothers just to keep the company running....hardly describes something Ponzi.

Let's see how great Christian has been. He hired a lot of his family members to run HCC (qualified or not). He sold a lot of memberships for ever increasing fees (without telling potential or current members that HCC was in trouble). He signed contracts giving certain rights and promises of a lifetime of vacations to members in exchange for huge membership fees (rights he is now taking away from members). I feel sure that he paid himself and his family members quite well over the years. It is obvious from the current situation at HCC that they deserved big salaries and bonuses since they did such a great job running the company.

Fast forward to now. Christian had to have known for months that this thing was going south, but he kept selling memberships. Wasn't that special? I am sure Christian told his family members months ago that HCC was failing so they could look for new employment (the ones he laid off probably already have new jobs). Christian and his family members will leave HCC with years of salaries and bonuses in their pockets ( HCC members will leave with nothing). Kind old Christian gets all of his ducks in a row with his lawyers before he announces the bad news to members. Does he give some options for the members to vote on or discuss? No! Good old Christian announces that 75% of the members must either sign away their rights received in their original contract by the 14th of November, or he will shut it down beginning on the 17'th. He makes sure to tell members that after he pays off HCC's debts (his corporate debts) with HCC's assets (your money), that there will be no money left to refund to owners. That is strong arm tactics giving the owners 2 bad choices with no alternatives. What a guy!

There are still a few defending the owners and the HCC business plan even after reading the CEO's statements. That is crazy! How could anyone totally ignore the facts and continue to defend HCC or any non equity DC's. Whether it was a Ponzi Scheme, a scam, or poor management, it failed as several other DC's have before it, and as many other DC's will fail after HCC is gone. While it was operating and there was no hard evidence that HCC was in trouble, one could understand how owners might defend it. After numerous DC failings, and the current sad state at HCC, it is beyond belief that anyone would or could still defend HCC or any DC. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

It is not irresponsible to call a bad business plan proven to fail again and again a scam. What is irresponsible is continuing to defend the DC business plan that has hurt so many people, and the same business model that will hurt many more in the future.

I know the members are trying to keep this thing going, but I would never pay a year's worth of fees up front hoping they make it. That would be throwing good money after bad. If many of the owners don't pay, HCC will still shut it down because they won't be able to cover expenses. If you pay the year in advance you almost surely lose even more money because HCC has already stated they are not giving refunds.

I also wouldn't sign the new contract giving up the rights that came with the original contract. If they get 75% of the members to sign they can do whatever they want. They are threatening to shut it if enough members don't sign, but what is the use of keeping it limping along while paying higher fees and giving up what you paid for? Don't pay the annual dues, don't sign the new contract, and the worst that will happen to you is that they will throw you out of a club that is doomed anyway. At least you will stop the bleeding.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Welcome Back, Steamer.

I have been pretty quiet on TUG and other online forums for the past few months as I have been very involved in several business ventures that require more of my free time

Good hearing from you again, Bill.

The place wasn't the same without you.

Plus I hope you made major serious big bux via all those business ventures that monopolized your time while you were away from TUG-BBS.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Steamboat Bill]

Good hearing from you again, Bill.

The place wasn't the same without you.

Thanks...these are scary times indeed and my timeshare portfolio (including HCC) is quite small compared to my other assets and businesses that require much more attention than in the past.

I really hope HCC survives as it was (and still is) a great product. For the near term future, I can't participate online as much as I did in the past, but I still follow a few threads. HCC may survive or get bought out or it will fail and we will soon see what happens.

When I read reports of millions of hard working middle-class people with maxed out credit cards, getting laid off from their jobs, watch their homes fall into foreclosure, and see their retirement plans vaporize, my problems seem trivial. I have a very blessed life that I often take for granted and I probably have disclosed too much personal information on TUG, but I take no enjoyment watching the current worldwide economic crisis.

 

[PerryM]

Let's see how great Christian has been. He hired a lot of his family members to run HCC (qualified or not). He sold a lot of memberships for ever increasing fees (without telling potential or current members that HCC was in trouble). He signed contracts giving certain rights and promises of a lifetime of vacations to members in exchange for huge membership fees (rights he is now taking away from members). I feel sure that he paid himself and his family members quite well over the years. It is obvious from the current situation at HCC that they deserved big salaries and bonuses since they did such a great job running the company.

Fast forward to now. Christian had to have known for months that this thing was going south, but he kept selling memberships. Wasn't that special? I am sure Christian told his family members months ago that HCC was failing so they could look for new employment (the ones he laid off probably already have new jobs). Christian and his family members will leave HCC with years of salaries and bonuses in their pockets ( HCC members will leave with nothing). Kind old Christian gets all of his ducks in a row with his lawyers before he announces the bad news to members. Does he give some options for the members to vote on or discuss? No! Good old Christian announces that 75% of the members must either sign away their rights received in their original contract by the 14th of November, or he will shut it down beginning on the 17'th. He makes sure to tell members that after he pays off HCC's debts (his corporate debts) with HCC's assets (your money), that there will be no money left to refund to owners. That is strong arm tactics giving the owners 2 bad choices with no alternatives. What a guy!

There are still a few defending the owners and the HCC business plan even after reading the CEO's statements. That is crazy! How could anyone totally ignore the facts and continue to defend HCC or any non equity DC's. Whether it was a Ponzi Scheme, a scam, or poor management, it failed as several other DC's have before it, and as many other DC's will fail after HCC is gone. While it was operating and there was no hard evidence that HCC was in trouble, one could understand how owners might defend it. After numerous DC failings, and the current sad state at HCC, it is beyond belief that anyone would or could still defend HCC or any DC. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

It is not irresponsible to call a bad business plan proven to fail again and again a scam. What is irresponsible is continuing to defend the DC business plan that has hurt so many people, and the same business model that will hurt many more in the future.

I know the members are trying to keep this thing going, but I would never pay a year's worth of fees up front hoping they make it. That would be throwing good money after bad. If many of the owners don't pay, HCC will still shut it down because they won't be able to cover expenses. If you pay the year in advance you almost surely lose even more money because HCC has already stated they are not giving refunds.

I also wouldn't sign the new contract giving up the rights that came with the original contract. If they get 75% of the members to sign they can do whatever they want. They are threatening to shut it if enough members don't sign, but what is the use of keeping it limping along while paying higher fees and giving up what you paid for? Don't pay the annual dues, don't sign the new contract, and the worst that will happen to you is that they will throw you out of a club that is doomed anyway. At least you will stop the bleeding.

This is a fantastic review of the mess HCC is in.

The rest of the DC industry will suffer from the same fate - amateurs running a totally unregulated real estate scheme. Not even Hawaii wanted to regulate them - not enough money for the politicians to worry about.

All the warning signs were there guys - some of us got up on soap boxes, yelled at the top of our lungs, and were pelted with tomatoes and boos.

Oh well, I did my part in all of this - and I will continue to be proud of that; gloat and all.

The domino effect that HCC starts will be interesting to watch as the DC industry gets sucked down the drain. All that lack of transparency, lack of real estate oversight by the states, and raw greed by the folks who cooked up these schemes will be interesting to watch unfold in the next 6 months.

To conclude this thread (It has now served its purpose) HCC will go out of business and the folks who started it will abscond with the hard earned monies of the folks who "invested" with them - same 'ol same 'ol real estate scam and it will be repeated in the future by new players.

Nothing really changes that much.

So as the OP I am unsubscribing from this thread and wish all of you the best Holiday Wishes and a prosperous 2009.

 

[stevens397]

Close the thread Perry. I've long thought you were the smartest person on this forum. While I salivated over the promotional literature, I was simply to scared to move forward - worried about todays reality coming true.

HCC almost got me due to the low entry fee, but I had enough timeshares and not enough time. Your comments cinched it for me.

As far as I'm concerned, if you stay away from four letter words and personal attacks, anything should go at a forum unless those running it have an axe to grind. Rest easy - you did nothing wrong except express a knowledgeable opinion.