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Demeure - UE

Desties

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With an FAQ like that, it's no wonder why surfing the website only leads to MORE unanswered questions.

Demeure, hello, we need to see what kind of bang we're getting for your buck. Your stylish yet vacuous website provides little details on the properties (and with weak geographical mapping), but at the very least PUBLISH YOUR RATES.

I can't think of anyone who will agree to pay more than they did at UE without that information. Heck, I can't conceive someone joining the traditional plan without wondering how good a deal they're getting for that $2,500 cover charge.

I'm not as concerned about availability as others, because I see the 200-ish properties already submitted to the plan. My question, though, is why the heck is continental U.S. coverage limited to Colorado and Nantucket?

While we're at it, how long is the minimum stay? What's the cancellation policy? How are you weighing the 200+ PE Legacy members when it comes to dues?
 

Kagehitokiri2

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specifically no mention of housekeeping etc. slick.

http://demeure.com/news/ultimate-escapes/
might be something theyll update?

http://demeure.com/news/about/team/
Mark Cibik – Director of Sales
those from DC4MS should remember him.

also, no comments about TTT yet? because its simply an upscale version, with chapters, and now an attempt to get free real estate along with quicker cash flow.
 
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travelguy

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also, no comments about TTT yet? because its simply an upscale version, with chapters, and now an attempt to get free real estate along with quicker cash flow.

As long as they are not comments FROM TTT. :D
 

ClubsRDead

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http://demeure.com/news/about/team/
Mark Cibik – Director of Sales
those from DC4MS should remember him.

Don't have to have been on DC4MS to remember this guy, all you had to do was wire him $450k+ during the THAK days. Oh yes, I remember this scum bag very, very well. Shouldn't be a surprise that McGrath brought him and others along during his Demeure tenure.

I guess Cibik has the objection / response planned for when he calls us to enroll us and we say "hey, aren't you the guy that stole our money?"

Not only did I personally buy a membership but also "invested" in Abercrombie and Kent Towne Clubs. My return on both was about what I expect to receive from UE now...

What a joke.
 

Kagehitokiri2

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was just checking emails, emailed demeure early this month about rates, and the pre-pay set up. no response.
 
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Desties

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Coming from the PE side, I have no beef with Cibik. I'm guessing that if any kind of luxury booking/DC is starting up, they're going to want someone with experience and a Rolodex of rich leads. It's only natural to turn to marketers already in the business.

However, this may very well be yet another reason why Demeure doesn't get anywhere close to the $12 million annual committment it needs. Let's face it. Demeure isn't a good match for the 200-300 PE Legacy members who have flexible spending plans (low annual dues, then the flexible per night component) to commit to a set amount of higher travel spending. If the T&H camp have bad blood behind the Demeure team, that's more than half of UE right there that aren't coming along.

So, what happens next? What happens come November 5 when Demeure has to back out because of a lack of support? Sheon and Capital Source have yet to do what's right by the members (not that I can blame Sheon if nobody wants us collectively at this point). The end is near, right? EE gets its 60. DUO gets another dozen or two or three. A&K may get a handful of the original T&H members to clear out legislation.

Either way, our collective value is toast since nobody stepped up to run UE with a more cost-conscious approach. The difference between UE and a skeezy oriental massage parlor is that only one offers a happy ending.
 

Kagehitokiri2

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considering cibik had spoken with media in the past, his response to bill was.. odd. this is when he was head of sales at solstice, although his title made him sound like senior management. bill ended up getting response from real senior management basically distancing themselves from cibik's response.

EE has gotten 60? im curious what the terms post lusso are. DestiFan said their plan was a lot better than offer to lusso members. edit - gotcha, sorry Desties.
 
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Desties

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EE has gotten 60?

No. There are three different options for UE members, and each one is limited to 20 members.

The crummier everything else looks, the easier it should be for EE to get the 60.

The DUO number is also just a best guess on my part.
 

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Rates and Pricing for Demeure- Ultimate Fiasco

Does any one have info on Demeure Rates and pricing or contacts with current members to prevent recurrence of this fiasco.

What are the options available to UE members with the Bankruptcy court and the swindlers. Specofically do the members have any rights so that the Bankrupty judge has their inout and interests too

Thanks
 

Kagehitokiri2

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the question is "rate range" as in what is the cheapest rate and most expensive. both for UE properties, and the rest of their portfolio.

not getting this information out early in the "JOIN US UE MEMBERS!" seems like a negative sign, as most of the signs are.

the whole pick an amount for 5 years also seems odd to me. or could it change every year? anyway - why cant you just pay as you go? i mean with UE members - gotcha, covering lease and some buys. but rest of members? surely you can book more time / really expensive properties at any time, so...
 
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I've not really commented much on this, so excuse the rant.

I feel very bad for the UE members. They've got a lot of options out there, but none of them seem to be obvious good choices. It would've been nice if a Hilton, Marriott or some brand name travel provider would have stepped up, just so members can feel more confident in their future, but clearly the deposits and value have been spent. Nonetheless, I'm sure the members are sick of funding others' new business ventures.

This is a classic example of how the members really needed representation of their interests. The worth of the membership really is as a group, but I suspect the other parties involved would rather not have the members communicating as a group. Since members are not communicating or acting as a group, members will just do their own things, diminishing the value that's there.

A few questions for anyone with information:

Who does the CRO represent? CapSource?
I know the unsecured creditors committee got involved late in the game, but did the UCC not have any better suggestions/options for the UE members?
Does Demeure have any operating experience or history as a travel provider?
Why would Demeure hire/contract with individuals whose experience originated with a bankrupt club (in the case of sales, two bankrupt clubs), particularly when you are selling to members already burned, and in some cases members who might feel burned by the same individuals?
How is the Demeure offer for UE members better than their general offer to non-UE members other than most of the same houses (although most are subject to change under leases) and some sort of credit to dues?
To the extent members are paying dues in excess of lease costs and operational expenses, do members build up any equity or deposit return?
What are the details behind the offering and company (e.g., pro formas for Demeure, financials for Laurence, member rights to future financials for Demeure, cancellation policies, rates, limits on future price increases, minimum standards for accomodations, minimum amenities for accomodations)?
Why would owners of houses rent their houses for 40-50% off of list price (unless properties or time offered is not prime)?
Is the pricing any better than what you'd get elsewhere?
How does Demeure at the end of the day differ from other leasing/trade models?

On the positive side, at least Demeure doesn't require any additional deposits (although no ownership either), and they do provide a large number of properties. In any event, Demeure definitely seems worth exploring, but a lot of questions do need to be answered.
 

ClubsRDead

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Coming from the PE side, I have no beef with Cibik.

So, your "beef" would (or, should) be with Keith, or maybe the EE owner Adam, who was a salesguy for PE? You know Keith started in this field with McGrath, right? He was the COO at Private Retreats.

It's unfortunate that some of these guys continue on from club to club and continue to try to take more dollars from the same group of people. It's even stranger that some of us continue to hand them money.

McGrath spent 9 months with Demeure and didn't get nudged to the side until Demeure Counsel suggested his name be suppressed. The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree here - if they weren't peas in a pod none of them would have spent so much time together.
 

ClubsRDead

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It would've been nice if a Hilton, Marriott or some brand name travel provider would have stepped up, just so members can feel more confident in their future

Why didn't your club? That's twice they left us high and dry. Not sure how many would go along with it but seems like they should have stepped in since 1/3 to 1/2 of UE members originally wrote checks to AK when they got into this crumbling industry in the first place.
 

Kagehitokiri2

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wow re keith. then add the whole him/family holding loans/etc for PE.

9 months? didnt demeure claim less?

just keeps getting worse...

why should AK license be treated differently than any other licensing?
 
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I have no idea. I've only heard rumors from various people. Supposedly they looked based on UE member comments but don't know anything more than that. Maybe because the model doesn't mesh well when there are no deposits left. Maybe because they wouldn't carve out the members that bought during the A&K licensed days. Maybe they didn't want to do a multi-tiered club. I really have no idea. As long as it didn't negatively impact the equity members, I would've loved to have seen that happen.

For that matter, not sure why Quintess didn't bid given they supposedly were ready to buy the club before bankruptcy and had a deal in place when the club would have been presumably a lot more expensive. Not sure why Marriott/RC didn't. Not sure why the timeshare operator that was interested didn't move forward. I do think the industry as a whole could have stepped up to offer a range of different options, because every member has a different perspective on things, but the industry has not been the hallmark of cooperation. Some will think Demeure is great and a lot will walk away. Not one solution fits all members. Furthermore, UE was so large that it's a big chunk of change for any one buyer to take on the whole, particularly if sticking to a DC format (versus more of a lease format).

Personally I think the industry or the members of DCs need to call for regulation. The timeshare industry wasn't cleaned up until that point. There are still clubs out there that have no requirements as to how members' deposits are spent. It won't do UE members any good, but at least it may save some other people.
 
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Kagehitokiri2

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maybe Q and other nonequity were giving UE members more credit than demeure at the moment.

perhaps AK is doing one of the offers theye done before. (terms have been public)

IIRC the last EE offer where terms were made public was the lusso one.

i guess they decided (a while ago) against buying properties because they didnt want to do equity? but now they see an opportunity to pull a move like UE, without the debt.

but then wouldnt ER and Q (with their much more substantial backing, right?) have considered doing the exact same thing if they thought it could work, as a separate club etc? ok, reasons not to. ER has "brand integrity." but Q already has 3 clubs total now, and multiple clubs with caps has always been a concept, like lusso. yet with duo they just shifted properties. and with pricing that isnt way lower than Q. http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=997411&postcount=1064

* is there currently any group discussion amongst UE members via email or that other forum etc?

...

so 15% increase, and $12mm for demeure deal equates to $10.4mm in current dues, before 15% addition

UE 2009 >
incoming dues are something like 16M.
i got the same thing ($16,330,237) by breaking out non-recurring >
10.4 / 16.3 = 64%

also highly amusing that demeure is saying no deposit in this case when theyre rolling nonequity home purchases into dues. kind of like UE's amortization of deposits/refunds and then their lumping of assessment revenue into dues so you couldnt break out non-recurring. or lusso's insane lease "to own" rates which they counted the same as purchases. or TH using deposit money on investments other than club residences.

...

what the heck is UCC counsel doing.. (appear withdraw etc)

...

re demeure - wasnt TTT person talking about selling on DC4MS? also, one key world residence owners might be another good target.

interesting article re homeaway >
http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2010/03/05/the-100-million-revenue-club-homeawaycom/
raised $405mm, revenue $120mm

http://www.homeexchange.com/ exchange only
 
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pete1801

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Ultimate members voting no on Demeure

There is a bulletin board for ultimate escapes members that is running a straw poll on who will join Demeure.

With over 800 registered users, so far 100 have voted (nearing statistical significance), over 50% say NO- they will not join; over 30% are leaning NO; less than 20% say Neutral or leaning yes; none say YES so far.

(Can't say the name of the website here since it is an org for ultimatemembers only.)

:cheer:
 

OneMoreTime

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UE Members are voting!

It should be an interesting webinar tonight. So far their have been 108 unique votes and 31% are leaning toward no, and 55% are a straight no-
 
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Anyone else think the Demeure website is slow and not very good? Very odd considering their expertise is in technology and software design.

In looking at the Demeure website, I had a couple of additional questions:

Capacity - "Demeure guarantees that it will not exceed a Member-to-Home ratio, or Capacity Ratio, of 6-to-1 (based on a 60-day Membership Plan), which means the capacity committed is guaranteed." Using a 60 day plan, doesn't that mean that is 360 days out of 365 days sold or 98.6%? Normally, clubs will use a 30 day or 45 day membership plan equivalency, or occupancy between 50% and 80% (on the high side). Isn't that even higher than UE was?

Website says the following: "There are no agency fees, as would typically be the case if you were dealing with a rental agency." A few questions down it says: "Here’s an example to illustrate how the formula works: Let’s say another Contributing Member stays at your property for two nights at an average nightly rate of $1,000. So your property “earns” $2,000. Of that total, the Club retains 25% ($500) to run the club. You get the remaining 75%, or $1,500, as a combination of accommodation credits and cash from the OCRF pool. The cash component may be as much as 25% of the total earned (in this case, $500), and you’ll receive the remainder in accommodation credits. This specific mix between cash and accommodation credits will be determined by your property’s relative value to club members, which is calculated by Demeure’s proprietary software based on popularity, seasonality, how far in advance time was contributed, and posted nightly rate. This is approximately 75% of the net rental income paid by the non-Member." Doesn't that conflict or are they saying it is an exchange if you are trading with another member, but they get 25% if a non-member leases the property?

Website seems to indicate that they don't generally inspect properties, so how do they know that the accomodations are acceptable? As an example, the better villa rental companies have at least inspected the properties, and most of the DCs have routine site visits and maintenance.

This seems to at least in part answer one of my earlier questions about why would anyone rent their place for 40%-50% off for prime properties or peak times.

"The Demeure system also allows you to set quotas for the amount of days you would like to provide to other Members during various seasons. For example, you might elect to keep two weeks during high season (mid-June to mid-September) available for the Club’s proprietary vacation rental agency or other rental agencies in order to maximize your rental income and provide the other two weeks to Demeure." Basically, the website seems to indicate that as long as you contribute at least three weeks equivalency during the year, you can rent the rest of your weeks to a normal villa leasing agency to maximize your income.

Seems the 40%-50% discount is a little misleading, because presumably if you are getting exchanged accomodations at that discount, but you're obligated to provide time at that discount, it is a wash, right? Is that just marketing or what am I missing?

Someone posted this on their website which was interesting and didn't see a response yet:

"In terms of financial transparency, if Demeure is successful is getting enough UE members to join, is there ANY financial gain whatsoever involved for Tousignant, Keith, their various partnerships and interrelated companies, or the restructuring agent and his firm? Any ‘commissions’ or ‘success fees’ paid to any parties?"


The Demeure system is a lot to absorb and hope the webinar is instructive. Maybe they'll touch on some of those issues. I will give Demeure kudos for their board.
 

Kagehitokiri2

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at first glance, seems more complicated than TTT? (trying to obtain more profit?)
 

Kagehitokiri2

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There is a bulletin board for ultimate escapes members that is running a straw poll on who will join Demeure.

With over 800 registered users, so far 100 have voted

glad to hear there is a forum for discussion. 800 is quite impressive.
 
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ClubsRDead

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Demeure Is A Non Starter

Just put up the prices.

Thanks for the waste of time, Peter.

Hello BK Claim form and VRBO.
 

RoshiGuy

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As an ex-HCC member, the offer made by Second Home (also available to UE members) at least seems to be reasonable. I need more information though before I decide to test the waters versus going the VRBO route.
 
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