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Deeded Points

chris1278

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We are coming in from Vistana as a legacy weeks owner in a mandatory resort. We are able to trade our points through Abound.

We attended our first Marriott presentation this morning and the sales person said that whenever we purchase points through MVC, our deed would hold those points at the current value per resort. So, in other words, whatever the points charts demonstrate today across MVC resorts, that is what we would be locked in at.

So my first question is, is that true? My assumption is yes, but that's always been a question of mine because it seems MVC could do whatever they want to do w/ the point value.

And that leads to my next question: if we picked up a resale, what point charts does the resale lock in at? Is it the charts of the original purchase? Or does it reset for the new owner of those points?

Hoping my question makes sense.
 

rthib

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As with all sales statements, there is some truth but not what he said.
The total points for a resort stay the same regardless of when you buy, there is no “locking in”
But the points chart is never locked in. Marriott makes small adjustments as demand changes.
To make the math easy we are going to look at one year and one week with made up numbers.
When resort A is built or converted to points, Marriott thinks every week is the same worth 100 points, so the total value is 5200 for that week. Now after the first year Marriott realizes that everyone want Christmas and no one wants Valentine’s Day. So they adjust the points For those two weeks. Every week is 100 except the week of Valentine now only costs 50 and Christmas week now cost 150. Total for resort is still the same but those weeks now have a different cost.
Marriott makes minor changes and there is usually a thread when points charts are released where any changes are noted. Now that the program has been around not a lot of major changes.

So in summary
- buying does not lock in anything on points charts.
- total points for a resort do not change
- there are some minor changes to week costs year to year.
 

jwalk03

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The points charts change VERY little. Mainly just tweaks around holidays that are not fixed days of the week. And as mentioned- any increase they make has an accompanying decrease somewhere else.
 

Pamplemousse

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We are coming in from Vistana as a legacy weeks owner in a mandatory resort. We are able to trade our points through Abound.

We attended our first Marriott presentation this morning and the sales person said that whenever we purchase points through MVC, our deed would hold those points at the current value per resort. So, in other words, whatever the points charts demonstrate today across MVC resorts, that is what we would be locked in at.

So my first question is, is that true? My assumption is yes, but that's always been a question of mine because it seems MVC could do whatever they want to do w/ the point value.

And that leads to my next question: if we picked up a resale, what point charts does the resale lock in at? Is it the charts of the original purchase? Or does it reset for the new owner of those points?

Hoping my question makes sense.
For your 2nd question- A resale MVC is not enrolled in abound- you don’t have a points option. You stay your owned week or you exchange on Interval.
 

LeslieDet

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For your 2nd question- A resale MVC is not enrolled in abound- you don’t have a points option. You stay your owned week or you exchange on Interval.
Resale points are treated the same as directly purchased MVC Trust Points once the activation fee of $3/point is paid. Your comment is limited to resale weeks only.
 

DRH90277

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Is the best option to buy points?

Just bought another Grand Chateau platinum 2 bedroom every year for $2,500. This can locked off, exchanged through Interval, or used. We have lots of weeks, many enrolled, and points. This decision was easy versus even buying cheap resale points. We don't intend to ever attempt to enroll this and several other weeks.

This is probably one of the best options for a new entrant into Vacation Club. This is a nominal $2,500 spend, provides lots of flexibility through Interval and the lock-off feature, and has very low maintenance fees at about $1,500 year.
 

Pamplemousse

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Resale points are treated the same as directly purchased MVC Trust Points once the activation fee of $3/point is paid. Your comment is limited to resale weeks only.
Yes, OP said week so we were talking week.
 

LeslieDet

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Yes, OP said week so we were talking week.
Actually, the OP said: "We attended our first Marriott presentation this morning and the sales person said that whenever we purchase points through MVC, our deed would hold those points at the current value per resort. So, in other words, whatever the points charts demonstrate today across MVC resorts, that is what we would be locked in at." ... "And that leads to my next question: if we picked up a resale, what point charts does the resale lock in at? Is it the charts of the original purchase? Or does it reset for the new owner of those points?" -

So, I honestly have no clue if the OP was talking about purchasing resale weeks or resale points. I just wanted whoever may be reading this to understand that resale weeks are treated differently than resale points.
 
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dioxide45

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mamasnow

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Actually, the OP said: "We attended our first Marriott presentation this morning and the sales person said that whenever we purchase points through MVC, our deed would hold those points at the current value per resort. So, in other words, whatever the points charts demonstrate today across MVC resorts, that is what we would be locked in at." ... "And that leads to my next question: if we picked up a resale, what point charts does the resale lock in at? Is it the charts of the original purchase? Or does it reset for the new owner of those points?" -

So, I honestly have no clue if the OP was talking about purchasing resale weeks or resale points. I just wanted whoever may be reading this to understand that resale weeks are treated differently than resale points.
Deeded weeks are different from points. How are "deeded weeks" treated differently from "deeded points"? I don't think there are deeded points unless the points are for the entire MVC points Abound program which is different from "deeded weeks" which are deeded in fact with actual deeds recorded in the county where the actual physical buildings are located.
Points are part of a program, therefore the sales person is incorrect as to anything "deeded", and I don't think any sales person can guarantee anyone that the day they buy into a points based program such as Abound that the points chart will remain the same at times going forward. Deeded properties, no matter whether they are for 1 week or more, are a specific real estate definition. We purchased our "deeded week" with an actual deed in Maricopa Arizona in 2002. We have never elected to be part of the Abounds therefore when you buy our deeded week, versus buying part of a points program, you get a deed for an actual physical location. Points programs are not specific for the location
 

LeslieDet

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Deeded weeks are different from points. How are "deeded weeks" treated differently from "deeded points"? I don't think there are deeded points unless the points are for the entire MVC points Abound program which is different from "deeded weeks" which are deeded in fact with actual deeds recorded in the county where the actual physical buildings are located.
Points are part of a program, therefore the sales person is incorrect as to anything "deeded", and I don't think any sales person can guarantee anyone that the day they buy into a points based program such as Abound that the points chart will remain the same at times going forward. Deeded properties, no matter whether they are for 1 week or more, are a specific real estate definition. We purchased our "deeded week" with an actual deed in Maricopa Arizona in 2002. We have never elected to be part of the Abounds therefore when you buy our deeded week, versus buying part of a points program, you get a deed for an actual physical location. Points programs are not specific for the location
I'm not sure why you chimed in here; of course deeded weeks are different than points. The "how are they treated differently" is answered as follows:

1) deeded weeks, when sold, are not eligible to participate in the Abound program. Meaning that they cannot be enrolled. Which means that Club Points cannot be elected in lieu of occupancy for that resale deeded week. Someone who owns a resale deeded week can use that week, pay for their own II account and exchange that deeded week, or that person can purchase MVC Trust Points from MVC to make that deeded week eligible to enroll in the Abound program. That is an expensive option.

2) MVC Trust Points are indeed "deeded." MVC Trust Points are considered a legal interest in real property and the deeds to the Beneficial Interests owned are recorded in Orange County, FL. When you own MVC Trust Points you do indeed have a deed. The MVC Trust owns the underlying weeks in the Trust. So, for example, the MVC Trust owns deeded weeks in Arizona, Florida, California, South Carolina, Florida, etc etc. Those deeds are just like the same deeds that you own for your week in Arizona. When someone owns MVC Trust Points, it is still an ownership reflected by the deed, it is simply that the deed refers to Beneficial Interests in the Trust and not in a specific location.

The question posed by the OP reflects that they don't understand how the Club Points program works. The point values don't change. I am not sure you understand how the MVC Trust Point program works either. The points chart that depicts the point "cost" to book reservations where the Trust owns or for the weeks that end up in the Trust because some enrolled deeded week owner has elected Club Points in lieu of occupancy, do not change on an overall basis. So long as the quantity of units at the resort in question remains the same, then the total points required to book all of that inventory will not change. It has been the same since the Point program debuted in 2010. A property can and does indeed adjust points required for bookings to account for floating holidays, like Easter, but the overall point value doesn't change. If one night is adjusted upward by 100 Club Points, then another night it adjusted down by 100 points. It is called a zero sum change.

That static point value also applies to the deeded weeks that folks own. As an example, my Newport Coast week can be elected for 2700 Club Points. That will never change so long as I retain eligibility for my Newport week to be exchanged into the Trust. If someone buys a Newport Coast week resale, they are ineligible to elect Club Points, absent them buying additional (ie new to them) MVC Trust Points from MVC. If someone bought Newport resale, and then bought approximately 2500 MVC Trust Points from MVC, then that would result in them obtaining the right to enroll that resale week. If is it the same season at Newport as my week is, then they'd be eligible to elect 2700 Club Points. That number does not change. [edited to add -- the number does not change so long as the resort maintains the accommodations and facilities at the level determined at the time the point values were assigned. If, in my example, Newport Coast failed to meet the required standards, then the point value could be adjusted by corporate, but that adjustment would apply to all, not just to one single owner, and the adjustment must still be reasonable and not arbitrary and capricious.]

When someone purchases MVC Trust Points resale, they must pay $3/point with a minimum fee of $3K and then their resale MVC Trust Points will work just the same as the Trust Points purchased directly from MVC.
 
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Fasttr

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That static point value also applies to the deeded weeks that folks own. As an example, my Newport Coast week can be elected for 2700 Club Points. That will never change so long as I retain eligibility for my Newport week to be exchanged into the Trust.
Can you show specific wording related to this? I was looking for that the other day for a buddy, and couldn't find where it said elected points for exchanged weeks were locked forever.

And to clarify your last point, a deeded week is not exchanged into the Trust, but into the Exchange. Just clarifying for future readers, as I know you know that.
 
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ljmiii

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That static point value also applies to the deeded weeks that folks own.
That actually isn't true. MVC can change the election value of any enrolled week at their sole discretion. In fact, they changed one of mine...though in fairness when I kicked up a fuss they gave me bonus points equivalent to 10 years of the difference in value.
 

ljmiii

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Can you show specific wording related to this? I was looking for that the other day for a buddy, and couldn't find where it said elected points for exchanged weeks were locked forever.
That's because it doesn't exist. The election value can change at MVC's sole discretion.
 

LeslieDet

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That's because it doesn't exist. The election value can change at MVC's sole discretion.
While each and every agreement in place relating to the MVC Trust does indeed have the escape clause of "the developer's discretion" - there are also requirements that if that were to happen, it would have to be reasonable. It cannot simply be random or vindictive. The offering statement states:
"DEVELOPER RESERVES THE RIGHT, TO ITSELF AND ASSOCIATION DELEGEE, TO REASONABLY REVISE THE POINTS FOR USE ASSIGNMENTS FROM TIME TO TIME WITHOUT BENEFICIARY CONSENT IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE BENEFICIARIES AS A WHOLE; PROVIDED THAT, THE TOTAL NUMBER OF POINTS FOR USE THAT ARE REQUIRED TO RESERVE ALL USE PERIODS NI THE TRUST PLAN WILL EQUAL OR EXCEED THE TOTAL NUMBER OF POINTS FOR SALE ASSIGNED TO ALL OF THE BENEFICIARIES."

There will always be an out.

As to point values, yes, the developer reserves the right to modify the points, as well as terminate the exchange agreement if the enrolled week were to no longer meet the requirements. But in practicality, the values do not change because of the legal requirements set up in the original trust documents regarding the "points for use" and "points for sale".

But no matter what when it comes to modifying the booking point values, it must be reasonable. It isn't random or arbitrary and capricious.

The offering statement includes sections that say:
"The Association Delegee has the right to reasonably revise the Points for Use assignments from time to time without Beneficiary consent in the best interests of the Beneficiaries as a whole; provided that the total number of Points for Use that are required to reserve all Use Periods in the Trust Plan will equal or exceed the total number of Points for Sale assigned to all of the Beneficiaries. [See section 3.c of this Multisite Public Offering Statement]".

"Subject to the limited calendar adjustments described in this paragraph, any increase or decrease in the number of Points for Use required to reserve a designated Use Period pursuant to Association Delegee’s right to amend the Point Schedule as set forth above must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase to the Points for Use for other Use Period(s) occurring during the same year as the designated Use Period. Points for Use for a given calendar year will fluctuate from year to year as a result of the number of weekends that occur during that year, leap years, the occurrence of “Week 53” as defined in the Component Declarations, and which day of the week a holiday occurs. As a result of these fluctuating factors and differing demand which occurs because of the calendar permutations, the number of Points for Use may fluctuate for a given Use Period; provided, however, that the Points for Use for a Use Period in a specific calendar year that has the same factors as another specific calendar year, may only be increased or decreased pursuant to the preceding paragraph. Any modification to the Point Schedule shall not require approval by the Beneficiaries."

Regarding the points assigned to a specific property, the exchange agreement does indeed give the developer the sole discretion to change the point values. Again, there will always be an out. But again, it cannot be arbitrary and capricious.
 

LeslieDet

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That's because it doesn't exist. The election value can change at MVC's sole discretion.
Just FYI - the enrollment agreement I received in 2011 provides: "MVCEC reserves the right from time to time to adjust the quantity of Exchange Points received in exchange for enrollment or deposit of the use week associated with the Timeshare Interest, or necessary to reserve Accommodations, due to changes in demand in a specific market."

And, of course, there is an out if the resort doesn't remain within the brand or if the standards fall below the expectations. "MVCEC reserves the right to suspend participation in the Program by Owner if the Resort fails to maintain and manage the accommodations and facilities of the Resort at the level of quality and customer service established by MVCEC for all MVCEC-affiliated resorts from time to time. ln such event, MVCEC may terminate this Enrollment Agreement without any further obligation upon providing notice to Owner."

I've not seen or previously heard of any individual deeded week owner who had their enrolled week point exchange value reduced by the company. Your comment above is the first time I've read of any owner experiencing that point value adjustment.

I would assume that if there is such an adjustment, it would apply to all similarly situated owners, (ie all owning the exact same unit size, location, view and season) and would not be randomly selected individual owners. I have never seen any variable exchange point value applied within a resort to only one person. In using my example, I am not aware of anyone owning the gold season at Newport Coast being enrolled at less or more than 2700 points for that season.
 

cubigbird

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This is why we will never turn in our deeds to our weeks and we own where we want to go. Points, and the game, can always be changed.
 

ljmiii

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I would assume that if there is such an adjustment, it would apply to all similarly situated owners, (ie all owning the exact same unit size, location, view and season) and would not be randomly selected individual owners. I have never seen any variable exchange point value applied within a resort to only one person. In using my example, I am not aware of anyone owning the gold season at Newport Coast being enrolled at less or more than 2700 points for that season.
The adjustment was applied to what is admittedly an odd duck - a 1BR Platinum at Grande Vista. No idea how many are out there...but it's election value decreased from 1850 to 1700 points. And as I wrote, I was given 10 times the difference in Bonus Points.
 

bazzap

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Further to Leslie’s comprehensive reply:
None of our enrolled weeks at 6x home MVC resorts in the US, Caribbean, Europe and Asia have had any change in their elected points value since we first enrolled in 2010.
I did email Customer Advocacy back in 2020 to seek confirmation on whether these could change.
Their response was
”Thank you for contacting Customer Advocacy. I am sorry to learn that you have been receiving conflicting information regarding the points you receive for your enrolled weeks. I reached out to my Executive Manager for further assistance and I was advised that legally the points can fluctuate but there has to be a significant change in travel habits. I was also advised that since the inception of the Destinations program, this has only occurred once or twice at two of our resorts.”
 

LeslieDet

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Can you show specific wording related to this? I was looking for that the other day for a buddy, and couldn't find where it said elected points for exchanged weeks were locked forever.

And to clarify your last point, a deeded week is not exchanged into the Trust, but into the Exchange. Just clarifying for future readers, as I know you know that.
The enrollment agreements for the resorts - please see my comment above. The nature of the product is such that nothing is ever "locked forever" because there will always be an out. If a resort is destroyed by an earthquake, then the exchange point values will be altered or terminate altogether. The company will always reserve its right to modify, but if adjustments to point values were made, it would not be random, nor would it be punitive and applied to only one person. If the value of a particular resort were to be altered, then it would be applied to all of the same type - ie unit size, view, season, etc. They would not just say, that one owner's exchange point value will be cut.
 

LeslieDet

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This is why we will never turn in our deeds to our weeks and we own where we want to go. Points, and the game, can always be changed.
You are not understanding; while an adjustment in point costs can be made to account for changes in specific demand or floating holidays, the total points required to book any location cannot by terms of the agreement be changed arbitrarily. Any point cost adjustments must be a zero sum. Meaning that it could increase 100 points a night to book one high demand day, but another lower demand day would be reduced by 100 points.

So, no, the "game" actually cannot be changed by the T&C of the offering memorandum.

Here is the actual wording from the offering circular for the MVC Trust: "Program Manager will review the Point Schedule at least annually and amend the Point Schedule as necessary to maintain an equitable distribution of the usage requirements based on various factors such as relative daily and seasonal demand, Accommodation capacity, size, view, and furnishings, and other valuation parameters established by Program Manager or as might be required by law. Subject to the limited calendar adjustments described in the following paragraph, any increase or decrease in the number of Points for Use required to reserve a designated Use Period pursuant to Program Manager’s right to amend the Point Schedule as set forth in this paragraph must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase to the Points for Use for other Use Period(s) occurring during the same year as the designated Use Period." [emphasis added]
 
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Fasttr

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It has always seemed to me that MVC allowed themselves the ability to have one points chart for Trust points, and another for Elected points if they wanted to. In fact, the early points charts (back when they published the entire group of charts in one PDF) had wording that furthered that line of conspiracy theory thinking for me. See fine print at bottom of page i (the 3rd page on the attached), where it specifically says "This is the points schedule for MVC Trust".

I don't believe I have seen anything that would prevent them from having separate points charts for Trust and Elected points if they so chose....not that its not complicated enough as it is. ;-)

A lot of the protections listed by Leslie above are for the Trust specifically.
 

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Dean

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That actually isn't true. MVC can change the election value of any enrolled week at their sole discretion. In fact, they changed one of mine...though in fairness when I kicked up a fuss they gave me bonus points equivalent to 10 years of the difference in value.
There were a handful of examples of changes reported here early on. The reality is the entire system could go away if they chose to do so.
 

dioxide45

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The adjustment was applied to what is admittedly an odd duck - a 1BR Platinum at Grande Vista. No idea how many are out there...but it's election value decreased from 1850 to 1700 points. And as I wrote, I was given 10 times the difference in Bonus Points.
I am curious, when was this change made? Was it early in the implementation of the DC/Abound program or more recent? I know that some other resorts saw some adjustments. Can't remember if it was Oceana Palms or Ocean Pointe. Though it could have been neither one.
 

LeslieDet

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There were a handful of examples of changes reported here early on. The reality is the entire system could go away if they chose to do so.
Yes, it could go away, but the decision to do so cannot be arbitrary and capricious. And the MVC Trust would not simply evaporate. Some apocalypse type stuff would have to happen in our world for everything to simply disappear.
 
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