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DC point increase from 2016-2017

nanceetom

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I'm probally not as up with the DC points and as knowleable, but just noticed from the destination chart on their new web page that to go to Ko Olina, DC using DC points for a one bedroom PH mountain view in 2016 is 2675 for an October week. The same October dates for 2017, are 2975. Now, I know the points allocated to our weeks from the Marriot will never change (up), but it seems the option for using DC points, is a moving target option. Somewhere, I remember, being told that most likely wouldn't happen?
 

SueDonJ

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I'm probally not as up with the DC points and as knowleable, but just noticed from the destination chart on their new web page that to go to Ko Olina, DC using DC points for a one bedroom PH mountain view in 2016 is 2675 for an October week. The same October dates for 2017, are 2975. Now, I know the points allocated to our weeks from the Marriot will never change (up), but it seems the option for using DC points, is a moving target option. Somewhere, I remember, being told that most likely wouldn't happen?

Since the DC inception there have been several reallocations to the DC Points Charts from year-to-year, usually in relation to holiday periods but also in relation to unit size, demand, etc. The governing docs give MVW the right to make these reallocations providing that any increases must be offset elsewhere by decreases. So far all reports to TUG of such offsets are that they're done within the individual resort calendars as opposed to in the overall chart.

(The governing docs appear to also give MVW the right to adjust the number of DC Points allotted to enrolled Weeks but as yet no such adjustments have been reported to TUG.)

Although the 2017 Points Chart isn't (yet?) available at the new website in the compilation form that many prefer, it appears that the adjustments you noticed have been in effect since the 2017 Chart was released. This link is to the 2017 Points Chart that was previously captured by TUGger Davidvel; the Ko 'Olina pages match what is now currently available on the website in individual resort form.
 

dioxide45

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Lets break it down to see where they took these points from or if they perhaps took them from another villa size. Each "use period" is from the points chart, 1 through 9.

MV PH 1BR
.................2016........2017
Use Period 1 -- 2,675.......2,975
Use Period 2 -- 3,025.......3,325
Use Period 3 -- 2,675.......2,925
Use Period 4 -- 3,200.......3,525
Use Period 5 -- 3,200.......3,525
Use Period 6 -- 3,025.......3,325
Use Period 7 -- 2,675.......2,950
Use Period 8 -- 3,200.......3,525
Use Period 9 -- 3,200.......3,525
Use Period 10 - 3,700.......4,075


So there you have it. For a MV PH 1BR unit, the prices are up across the board 300 DC points. Lets see if they took is from a different size unit.

MV PH Studio
.................2016........2017
Use Period 1 -- 1,875.......1,705
Use Period 2 -- 2,175.......1,970
Use Period 3 -- 1,875.......1,705
Use Period 4 -- 2,400.......2,160
Use Period 5 -- 2,400.......2,160
Use Period 6 -- 2,175.......1,960
Use Period 7 -- 1,875.......1,690
Use Period 8 -- 2,400.......2,160
Use Period 9 -- 2,400.......2,160
Use Period 10 - 2,625.......2,365


Changes look to be the same up and down across all views in the 1BR and studio units. So it looks like they at least took some of the points from the MV studio to allocate to the 1BR. I would suspect that they found demand for the 1BR units to be higher at their point levels than the studio units. So they upped the cost for 1BR and lowered it for studio units.

I suspect if we compare across the entire resort, the amount of DC points required to book is the same. I don't think that Marriott hasn't charted in to taking points from one resort to give to another, yet.
 
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nanceetom

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As always, thank you. We've owned for quite some time, but have just used the DP once, actually last week. Knew I could get answers here!
 

dioxide45

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Well, it doesn't look like the totals come to a zero sum.

I compared across all use periods and unit types. Only the studio and 1BR were impacted. The cost to reserve a studio across all time periods went down 9,930 DC points. However the cost to reserve 1BR units went up 14,300. So where are they pulling the other 4,370 from?
 
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BocaBoy

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Well, it doesn't look like the totals come to a zero sum.

I compared across all use periods and unit types. Only the studio and 1BR were impacted. The cost to reserve a studio across all time periods went down 9,930 DC points. However the cost to reserve 1BR units went up 14,300. So where are they pulling the other 4,370 from?

There are more studios than 1BRs at Ko Olina because there is also a studio in each 3BR unit (all of those are lockoffs). I don't know if that is enough to account for the whole difference but it could be at least a partial explanation.

Another interesting thing is that the new points requirements are not all exact multiples of 25. I have not seen that before except in cases of the elite discounts for last minuted bookings.
 

dioxide45

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There are more studios than 1BRs at Ko Olina because there is also a studio in each 3BR unit (all of those are lockoffs). I don't know if that is enough to account for the whole difference but it could be at least a partial explanation.

Another interesting thing is that the new points requirements are not all exact multiples of 25. I have not seen that before except in cases of the elite discounts for last minuted bookings.

That could very well explain it. The balance in the end is probably the same. I found it interesting too that everything wasn't a multiple of 25. People will have a few more orphan points as a result.
 

GregT

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Marriott: Maui Ocean Club Lahaina Villas (3BRx5), Ko Olina, Shadow Ridge II, Willow Ridge, Aruba Ocean Club, DC Points HGVC: Flamingo, Sea World, I-Drive, Starwood Bella (x4), SDO, TradeWinds, Worldmark
Well, it doesn't look like the totals come to a zero sum.

I compared across all use periods and unit types. Only the studio and 1BR were impacted. The cost to reserve a studio across all time periods went down 9,930 DC points. However the cost to reserve 1BR units went up 14,300. So where are they pulling the other 4,370 from?

That is interesting, were all Studio units impacted or just the Penthouse units?

Thx for the investigation.

Best,

Greg
 

dioxide45

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Greg, All studio units in all use periods went down in cost anywhere from 170 to 370 DC points. All 1BRs went up anywhere from 325 to 550 DC points. The impact was across all views.
 

GregT

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Greg, All studio units in all use periods went down in cost anywhere from 170 to 370 DC points. All 1BRs went up anywhere from 325 to 550 DC points. The impact was across all views.

Dioxide, thank you.

All, I think this is a pretty significant departure. If every unit now potentially requires ~100 additional points to reserve (on average) and there are XX lock-off units at Ko Olina (500?), and there are 50 weeks in the year, then it would now require an additional 2.5M points to book each segment.

Granted, many weeks will be booked either as traditional weeks by week owners, or as intact 2BR units, but this is the first concrete example of points inflation that I can think of. The decrease in Studios doesn't compensate for the increase in 1BRs, but because the 2BRs are unchanged (which is the backbone of the points chart), Marriott can correctly argue that the points chart hasn't changed, only the demand curve for the component units.

Interesting. We may see this again with other properties, where 1BR units are re-valued at a higher rate (commensurate with demand) than the de-valuation of the Studio units. This isn't shocking to me, as in HGVC a 1BR is 4,800 points and a Studio is 2,200 points, reflecting the relative desirability of 1BR units.

The benefit (for those of us that thrive on complicated reservation strategies) is that it is now cheaper to construct a 2BR unit at Ko Olina, if we can trade a 1BR for a 1BR, and then book a matching Studio with less points.

Best,

Greg

Edited: corrected the error in average points -- it approximates closer to 100 points per unit than the original 400
 
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Bnov

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Point Totals for Resorts Are Fixed

I suspect if we compare across the entire resort, the amount of DC points required to book is the same. I don't think that Marriott hasn't charted in to taking points from one resort to give to another, yet.

To your point, Dioxide, I have an early document from Marriott that affirms your assertion that the amount of DC points across the entire resort must remain the same: "Marriott has calculated the number of Points needed to stay each day at a resort for all unit sizes and views. Marriott then calculated the TOTAL number of Points for a resort and that number is fixed for life of the resort. Marriott can however, shift Points around to reflect the reality of supply and demand. Expect the Points Calendars to change yearly based upon last year’s activity."
 

dioxide45

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To your point, Dioxide, I have an early document from Marriott that affirms your assertion that the amount of DC points across the entire resort must remain the same: "Marriott has calculated the number of Points needed to stay each day at a resort for all unit sizes and views. Marriott then calculated the TOTAL number of Points for a resort and that number is fixed for life of the resort. Marriott can however, shift Points around to reflect the reality of supply and demand. Expect the Points Calendars to change yearly based upon last year’s activity."

I think Greg has actually hit the nail on the head. The underlying units are really the 2BR and 3BR units. They haven't touched the point values of those. For all properties, the individual components of the 2BR and 3BR lock off units cost more than reserving a single 2BR or 3BR unit. So Marriott has inflated the cost of the individual components at Ko'Olina without really impacting the overall point requirements of the entire property.
 

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I think Greg has actually hit the nail on the head. The underlying units are really the 2BR and 3BR units. They haven't touched the point values of those. For all properties, the individual components of the 2BR and 3BR lock off units cost more than reserving a single 2BR or 3BR unit. So Marriott has inflated the cost of the individual components at Ko'Olina without really impacting the overall point requirements of the entire property.

Is this new? That's tricky, and intuitively seems wrong.
 

dioxide45

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Is this new? That's tricky, and intuitively seems wrong.

The sum of the two parts of a lock off costing more than the total whole unit is not new. It has been that way since inception. The increase at Ko'Olina is a first. I checked a few other properties and did not see this same thing at any of them.

The cost of a 1BR + a studio was considered a skim on top of the skim very early on with DC. In the Ko'Olina example. A studio and 1BR MV would have cost 4550 to book separately in 2016 for the first use period. A single 2BR MV cost only 4050 in 2016 for the same period. That gap has widened by 80 points for 2017.
 

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The sum of the two parts of a lock off costing more than the total whole unit is not new. It has been that way since inception. The increase at Ko'Olina is a first. I checked a few other properties and did not see this same thing at any of them.

The cost of a 1BR + a studio was considered a skim on top of the skim very early on with DC. In the Ko'Olina example. A studio and 1BR MV would have cost 4550 to book separately in 2016 for the first use period. A single 2BR MV cost only 4050 in 2016 for the same period. That gap has widened by 80 points for 2017.
Now its coming back to me. I didn't pay too close attention to those early threads as I was not in DC then. Thanks Dioxide.

I guess there is some logic due to the added expenses breaking up a week.
 

tschwa2

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I too remember that from Manor club from the beginning now that this is coming up. Owners have to deposit the full unit for dc points they can't deposit the studio and save the 1 br for person use of II exchange. I guess you are paying a lock off fee using points instead of dollars when you book the partial full unit.

studio 1,175
1 br 1,675
2 br 2,500

Does this mean they couldn't do it in places that sold smaller stand alone units vs only selling the full lock off unit?
 

dioxide45

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I too remember that from Manor club from the beginning now that this is coming up. Owners have to deposit the full unit for dc points they can't deposit the studio and save the 1 br for person use of II exchange. I guess you are paying a lock off fee using points instead of dollars when you book the partial full unit.

studio 1,175
1 br 1,675
2 br 2,500

Does this mean they couldn't do it in places that sold smaller stand alone units vs only selling the full lock off unit?

I don't know. I know that Grande Vista sold 1BR dedicated units as well as the 2BR lock off that splits in to a 1BR and a studio. So it might be harder for them to make this kind of change at Grande Vista given that some 1BR units make up the underlying inventory. They may have similar issues at other Hawaii properties such as Maui Ocean Club and Kauai Beach Club.
 

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BocaBoy

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All, I think this is a pretty significant departure......The decrease in Studios doesn't compensate for the increase in 1BRs.
So you have apparently done the math to verify that this is true, given that there are more potential studios than 1 BR units at the resort? Intuitively, it seemed to me that perhaps this accounted for the difference, given that all 3BR units at the resort have a studio without a compensating 1BR portion, plus the fact that there are very few 2 BR lockoffs (with studios) in Naia, which is a large tower. I had thought that maybe the reason there are no longer only exact multiples of 25 points in the Ko Olina points chart was due to the need to make the change come out as a wash.
 

dioxide45

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So you have apparently done the math to verify that this is true, given that there are more potential studios than 1 BR units at the resort? Intuitively, it seemed to me that perhaps this accounted for the difference, given that all 3BR units at the resort have a studio without a compensating 1BR portion, plus the fact that there are very few 2 BR lockoffs (with studios) in Naia, which is a large tower. I had thought that maybe the reason there are no longer only exact multiples of 25 points in the Ko Olina points chart was due to the need to make the change come out as a wash.

I think Greg's point is that the number of 1BR and studio units mean nothing. It is the 2BR and 3BR units that make up the core or underlying inventory at Ko'Olina. So as long as they keep the points for those a wash, they are covered. Also consider that the sum of the two parts has always cost more than the whole. Since Marriott didn't change any point values related to the 2BR and 3BR units, they have really not changed the overall makeup. They have just increased the "fee" to book a lock off with points.

We could still do the math as I would be interested to know if it somehow comes out to a wash. Does anyone know how many 2BR lock offs and 3BR lock off units are at Ko'Olina?
 

BocaBoy

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I think Greg's point is that the number of 1BR and studio units mean nothing. It is the 2BR and 3BR units that make up the core or underlying inventory at Ko'Olina. So as long as they keep the points for those a wash, they are covered. Also consider that the sum of the two parts has always cost more than the whole. Since Marriott didn't change any point values related to the 2BR and 3BR units, they have really not changed the overall makeup. They have just increased the "fee" to book a lock off with points.

We could still do the math as I would be interested to know if it somehow comes out to a wash. Does anyone know how many 2BR lock offs and 3BR lock off units are at Ko'Olina?

Yes, I understand Greg's point, but I am not convinced from a casual look at the numbers that the total points required have necessarily increased if you assume all lock off units are booked in their smaller components. I could be wrong, of course. And perhaps when they allocate the points they are also considering the number and types of units that will be in the 4th tower? I am just speculating, but on the surface I see nothing alarming here for DC points users in the aggregate.

I don't know the numbers, except that the entire resort is ultimately supposed to have 750 units, and that there are approximately as many 3 BR units in Naia as 2BR lock offs, so Naia is probably a net decrease in points from this change. We probably can't really do the numbers with conviction without knowing the configurations in the 4th tower.
 

GregT

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We could still do the math as I would be interested to know if it somehow comes out to a wash. Does anyone know how many 2BR lock offs and 3BR lock off units are at Ko'Olina?

Okay, these are estimated numbers, based on looking at the view layouts, but I think there are 340 2BR lock-offs in the three towers (173 in Moana, 124 in Kona and 42 in Naia). There appear to be 40 3BR units in the three towers (14 in Moana, 26 in Naia -- half MV and half OV).

So, to keep the numbers simple, if we assume the 2BR units add a net 100 points (300 additional points for a 1BR, offset by 200 less points for a Studio), then the components of the 2BR require an additional 1.7M points (340 units X 50 weeks x 100 points).

Then there are the reduced points from the Studios from 3BR units -- which are each 200 points less now, for a total of 400K less points (40 units X 50 weeks X 200 points).

We don't yet know what would be in the fourth tower, but it would be need to be skewed heavily to 3BR lock-offs and dedicated 2BRs, needing ~130 3BR units to cover the existing 1.3M points difference (130 units X 50 weeks X 200 points).

So, I still believe that Marriott has increased the points requirement for the component units (which appear to be ~10% increase for 1BR and ~10% decrease for a Studio) which is an interesting precedent. As Dioxide has mentioned, I'm happy to see that certain properties like MOC have fixed 1BR units already, so I think it would be harder to change the of a 1BR in MMO (MM1 is a different story).

Interesting.

Best,

Greg
 
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davidvel

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Still slowly digesting all of this. As I understand the history/summary from Dioxide, the component pieces (ie. less than a full deeded 2BR, 3BR) have always cost more than the full deeded interest (and have now gone up more.) The only requirement in the trust docs is that the point values for the full deeded interest remain balanced.

So Marriott can increase the point requirements ad infinitum for any pieces other than the core deeded interests, and dilute trust/enrolled points' value for reserving same.

Is this accurate?
 

GregT

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Still slowly digesting all of this. As I understand the history/summary from Dioxide, the component pieces (ie. less than a full deeded 2BR, 3BR) have always cost more than the full deeded interest (and have now gone up more.) Yes, the component pieces have always cost more than the full deeded interest, which was a controversial topic back when DClub was rolled out

The only requirement in the trust docs is that the point values for the full deeded interest remain balanced. This is our assumption, that the point values for the full deeded interest remain balanced. I believe that the requirement to balance is across the entire property, so 3BRs could be increased/decreased with the offset applied to 2BRs, and still the property would remain in balance.

So Marriott can increase the point requirements ad infinitum for any pieces other than the core deeded interests, and dilute trust/enrolled points' value for reserving same. That is how I am interpreting the Ko Olina example -- it's an inflation of points required to book 1BR units, without a requirement to offset anything else. Theoretically, they could have increased the 1BR amounts and left the Studio the same, but optically, those chose to devalue the Studio units to make it appear to be a rebalance

Is this accurate?

I replied above, but much of this remains speculation.

Best,

Greg
 
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