CDC: People with Covid 19 twice as likely to have eaten out at a restaurant

[Brett]

I have not read all the posts, my apologies.
But here in our province we are beginning to get a spike in cases. A small number is because we are starting to open up our schools, so a few positive cases for teachers and a few students who now have to be quarantined and in some cases the entire class.
But the rest of the increase is due to people attending larger gatherings and people not social distancing or wearing masks. 40% of the cases are in the under 40 year olds who have attended gatherings in doors of 50 people (and maybe more) or outdoor venues of more than 100. As of today we are allowed 50 people indoors, but if we cannot distance ourselves then masks must be worn, the same procedure for the larger outdoor groups. These indoor gatherings are in homes or larger banquet halls used for weddings, christening/baptism parties etc.
People eating at outdoor patios and in restaurants have not been impacted because these businesses are extremely vigilant in keeping patrons separated and sanitizing everything in sight.
This may all change in a few days, when the Premier of Ontario may scale some areas back to stage 2 or 1 for a certain length of time to reduce our increase.

indoor gatherings / meetings of people in Virginia are limited to 250 (but I'm not attending )
Restaurants seem to be keeping social distancing - every other table is unoccupied

 

[Cornell]

And California's metric for closing down is even more absurd. As our percent positive and number of deaths plummeted, and local areas qualified for reopening under the former "science based formulae", the state created a new measure to close these areas back down. They added "Case Rate" which is the total number of positive tests (not the percent positive) per population, which does not account for the number of tests given. So as they push for more and more testing, with a fairly consistent positive rate, you necessarily get more positive tests. Test less, you have a lower Case Rate.

This is a ludicrous metric, as it is driven by the number of tests administered. In fact, it creates a disincentive for more testing. It is not logical, and is not scientific. But yet, it is ruining the world's third largest economy.

Thank you so much for this. Our school district is using this case rate nonsense as a metric to determine school opening / closures and it makes me insane.

 

[Patri]

Our school has been open for four weeks now. No spike. Have not heard of any positive cases. They do send out symptomatic kids/staff for testing. Rigorous measures in place. The students, parents and staff are thrilled school is in session.

 

[Sandi Bo]

I'm liking the viral load theories. To me it seems like a 'cousin' to herd immunity. It would explain why so many health care providers fell ill, especially early on. I have 2 sister-in-laws that tested positive last week and both are doing really well (sick, but not horrible, and recovering at home). One has COPD and I was very concerned about her if she caught it. She is a restaurant manager, has been out in this the whole time (working), but h scareful and wears a mask. Her 25 year old got it first, so likely that is where she caught it (who knows)? The other sells cars (again, she's been working this whole time).

I get very frustrated by the testing and lack of strategy or reliable data. Starting with suspecting we lagged behind testing in Nebraska because we did not want to find it (the only way to prove it was here would have been community testing and they tried really hard not to do that). Our first case of community spread was a woman who traveled to NYC so she got tested. After further interviewing her found out she had symptoms before she traveled and thus became our 1st case of community spread (oops). In the last month we finally have rapid testing available. How can this be 7 months into the pandemic?

I have a niece away from home at college. Many of her friends are positive. I think the expectation should be that these kids will catch it, and it would be best for them to recuperate at school (versus taking it home with them). We need to support them and that behavior (staying at school and being cared for).

I'm doing everything I think is reasonable not to catch it, just think it's a good idea (at my age and with people I am around that are high risk). That said, my daughter is a physician treating COVID patients. I don't go in her house, she doesn't come in mine. We hang out outside. I hug my grandchildren (you can not not hug a 2 or 3 year old, really...). But I don't touch my daughter. This has lightened up a bit from March (thank goodness).

And we all take the 'covid cocktail' - VIT D, VIT C, zinc, melatonin (why not)?

Seems like common sense has been lacking throughout this whole mess.

 

[Sugarcubesea]

we really need the truth. tracking of the reported cases. a synopsis of where the majority of the cases originated
My friend told me that the majority are from large gatherings and the second cause is nursing homes. I am able to avoid both, and I sure hope she is correct.
We are flying back to Florida on Oct 11. My doctor told me to get the flu shot two weeks before we leave so it will be effective for the flight. When I was talking to the airlines about wheelchair assistance, I asked if they were filling center seats. she said they were! I am worried about the flight, but I have no winter clothes, I have not driven on snow or ice for many years and I doubt I could walk to my mailbox here without doing the slip and slide. so we will hunker down and make the move.
My daughters boyfriend refuses to wear a mask and doesn't believe in the seriousness of Covid. He says it won't kill most people. I have told him it will probably kill me if I get it. Meanwhile I don't go see my grandkids very much. The only bright side is he really doesn't do much with other people except go into Home Depot for materials.

My extended family, cousins, aunts, etc have been flying Delta and they are keeping the middle seats open till the end of the year

 

[Cornell]

Speaking of bars , restaurants & Covid:

COVID-19 emails from Nashville mayor's office show disturbing revelation

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (WZTV) — The coronavirus cases on lower Broadway may have been so low that the mayor’s office and the Metro Health Department decided to keep it secret. Emails between the mayor’s senior advisor and the health department reveal only a partial picture. But what they reveal is...

fox17.com

 

[Brett]

Speaking of bars , restaurants & Covid:

COVID-19 emails from Nashville mayor's office show disturbing revelation

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (WZTV) — The coronavirus cases on lower Broadway may have been so low that the mayor’s office and the Metro Health Department decided to keep it secret. Emails between the mayor’s senior advisor and the health department reveal only a partial picture. But what they reveal is...

fox17.com

too late, it's already been posted on TUG - see post #74

The crack investigative team at Fox news uncovers another COVID bombshell

 

[Monykalyn]

And we all take the 'covid cocktail' - VIT D, VIT C, zinc, melatonin (why not)?

Considering there US population has a significant portion is deficient in Vitamin D why not? Vitamin C won't hurt you, but long term zinc or high doses can mask other problems/anemias, and can also be very hard on digestive system. Have stop date with zinc-max by March (flu season winding down, or earlier if you eat meat and flu is lighter this year or start getting stomach upset).

Seems like common sense has been lacking throughout this whole mess.

and continues to be absent...

The crack investigative team at Fox news uncovers another COVID bombshell

Seems they tried hard to verify and did get verification-whether their "spin" is accurate may be open to interpretation, but OTOH why on earth would you NOT release numbers saying cases from bars are not huge? Certainly possible to release and encourage people to be responsible.

 

[Sandi Bo]

Seems they tried hard to verify and did get verification-whether their "spin" is accurate may be open to interpretation, but OTOH why on earth would you NOT release numbers saying cases from bars are not huge? Certainly possible to release and encourage people to be responsible.

Maybe we all just need to drink a little more?

 

[Monykalyn]

Maybe we all just need to drink a little more?

LOL! I've actually cut way back (not that I did a bunch) even the glass of wine I used to enjoy with dinner is rarely poured now, or poured and then I forget about it. Used to love my 1x month outings with friends for happy "hour" -usually turned into "hours" but not because we were drinking a ton but we just kept talking

Did you see where the bar owners in Washington State are asking the governor to extend closing hours past 10pm so they can make an actual living? Just asking to 12am. They've followed all protocols but seems the new scapegoat lately is bars. So if anything doesn't fit that narrative it is ignored. If faulty studies/analysis sensationalizing the latest scapegoat is available then it is widely top headline news...

We were just in SEattle (drove kiddo out with her stuff for grad school) and if the bars had been open later we would have spent money socializing with our daughter.

 

[beejaybeeohio]

We will be dining indoors tonight for the 1st time since March 11th. It's our anniversary and we would have been celebrating it at a restaurant in Paris, but instead will be at Chez Francois, which is about as close we can get to France from here.

 

[Sandi Bo]

We will be dining indoors tonight for the 1st time since March 11th. It's our anniversary and we would have been celebrating it at a restaurant in Paris, but instead will be at Chez Francois, which is about as close we can get to France from here.

Happy Anniversary!

 

[Sandi Bo]

LOL! I've actually cut way back (not that I did a bunch) even the glass of wine I used to enjoy with dinner is rarely poured now, or poured and then I forget about it. Used to love my 1x month outings with friends for happy "hour" -usually turned into "hours" but not because we were drinking a ton but we just kept talking

Did you see where the bar owners in Washington State are asking the governor to extend closing hours past 10pm so they can make an actual living? Just asking to 12am. They've followed all protocols but seems the new scapegoat lately is bars. So if anything doesn't fit that narrative it is ignored. If faulty studies/analysis sensationalizing the latest scapegoat is available then it is widely top headline news...

We were just in SEattle (drove kiddo out with her stuff for grad school) and if the bars had been open later we would have spent money socializing with our daughter.

Shortening hours seems counter-intuitive to me to social distancing. I understand needing more time to clean, but seems like in general it makes for denser populations.

Last weekend I met a friend for coffee (outside). My first outing with a friend (other than to get hand sanitizer). It was so nice. We took our dogs, which was really nice, too, but encouraged people to stop and visit (the dogs). Such risk takers, lol.

 

[rapmarks]

today we picked up carry outs, and we went and sat on a picnic bench by the river near the dam and enjoyed it. It was nice to get out. It was national cheeseburger day!

 

[pedro47]

We will be dining indoors tonight for the 1st time since March 11th. It's our anniversary and we would have been celebrating it at a restaurant in Paris, but instead will be at Chez Francois, which is about as close we can get to France from here.

Wishing you guys a very Happy Anniversary and many, many more years together.

 

[Quiet Pine]

Eating at restaurants may be correlation, not causation. A few years ago, headlines said scientists had found that coffee drinkers contracted cancer. Come to find out, coffee drinkers also were smokers, and it was smoking--not coffee--that caused the cancer.

Hair salons are considered risky, but there were 2 stylists in Missouri, who had COVID, were symptomatic, saw 140 clients, and not one client contacted COVID. "The clients and the stylists all wore face coverings, and the salon had set up other measures such as social distancing of chairs and staggered appointments, the Springfield-Greene County Health Department said this week."

DH and I are cautious, but not monastic, and we've weathered 6 months without contracting COVID. We miss entertaining, seeing a grandson at a nearby college, but we do eat at restaurants We're comfortable with out choices.

 

[davidvel]

Shortening hours seems counter-intuitive to me to social distancing. I understand needing more time to clean, but seems like in general it makes for denser populations.

Last weekend I met a friend for coffee (outside). My first outing with a friend (other than to get hand sanitizer). It was so nice. We took our dogs, which was really nice, too, but encouraged people to stop and visit (the dogs). Such risk takers, lol.

It's not the total number of hours at issue, it's when the hours are. When bars and restaurants reopened, it was well documented that those out late were there primarily to drink, and their mask wearing and social distancing was inversely related to how long they had been drinking. Not a big shocker to anyone who has been to a bar/restaurant late at night.

 

[beejaybeeohio]

Indoor Restaurant Update:
Thanks for all the wishes for our anniversary. Chez Francois was full last evening. Fred & I were seated at a table for two in a corner of the restaurant. All staff was masked and patrons masked up when walking through the dining room. There were several large parties of 6-8 people but they were not nearby. At one table several of the male diners stood and schmoozed for a bit after dinner-sans masks. I would say about a third of the diners were elderly (more than we are!), the majority middle-aged and there were maybe 5 children in total. I tried counting the number of people there and it seems there were less than the 50 our governor recommends. Our wonderful dinner lasted 3 hours, which was perfect for a special occasion in non-covid times but long to be indoors.

Chilly weather has returned to NE Ohio which means all the al fresco dining we've enjoyed since May will come to a halt. How often we may venture to an indoor venue remains to be determined.

 

[Monykalyn]

Hair salons are considered risky, but there were 2 stylists in Missouri, who had COVID, were symptomatic, saw 140 clients, and not one client contacted COVID. "The clients and the stylists all wore face coverings, and the salon had set up other measures such as social distancing of chairs and staggered appointments, the Springfield-Greene County Health Department said this week."

My hometown-one of our infectious disease doctors actually wrote it up as a case study that is now on the CDC sight. I know this doc and he is super smart, like brainiac smart when it comes to things like that.

It's not the total number of hours at issue, it's when the hours are. When bars and restaurants reopened, it was well documented that those out late were there primarily to drink, and their mask wearing and social distancing was inversely related to how long they had been drinking. Not a big shocker to anyone who has been to a bar/restaurant late at night.

One of the owners quoted in the article said he over hears plans to go to someones house to continue socializing. Shutting bars down isn't stopping that. So why not give them(probably) safer better ventilated space to do that while also allowing those business owners to actually make a living? Again-IFR is dropping and has been dropping, along with hospitalizations from covid-even after mass openings.

Chilly weather has returned to NE Ohio which means all the al fresco dining we've enjoyed since May will come to a halt.

Hopefully you will still get chunks of good outside dining weather before winter sets in!!

 

[rapmarks]

An employee of the local Starbucks came down with it. I believe it was a supervisor from another location who was filling in

 

[davidvel]

One of the owners quoted in the article said he over hears plans to go to someones house to continue socializing. Shutting bars down isn't stopping that. So why not give them(probably) safer better ventilated space to do that while also allowing those business owners to actually make a living?

If you read my posts, you'd know I'm not a defender of most of the restrictions, but this one seems reasonable and necessary. "An owner" who "overhears" patrons saying the party will continue, is not a reason to keep bars open later. Bars are not restaurants, and drinking patrons make more stupid choices the more they drink. We can't police what people do privately behind closed doors, but letting them drink more at bars, later at night, is certainly not going to cause them not to get together afterward if that is their plan.

 

[Monykalyn]

If you read my posts, you'd know I'm not a defender of most of the restrictions, but this one seems reasonable and necessary. "An owner" who "overhears" patrons saying the party will continue, is not a reason to keep bars open later. Bars are not restaurants, and drinking patrons make more stupid choices the more they drink. We can't police what people do privately behind closed doors, but letting them drink more at bars, later at night, is certainly not going to cause them not to get together afterward if that is their plan.

Well true an owner is going to “overhear” stuff. And actually some areas ARE also trying to police what people do in their own homes (and don’t get me started on “snitch” lines omg). But the bar owner also deserves to keep his business open. If bowling alleys and movie theaters can open (both of whom can have food so no mask wearing) why can’t bars? It’s this arbitrary picking out of businesses that is inconsistent and really unnecessary.
Not everyone goes to a bar to get stupid drunk either- even late at night- and midnight isn’t that late. It’s not like asking for 2 or 3 am!. Some may just enjoy having someone else make the drinks, and be able to talk with another live human being and not stupid zoom. It’s very easy for those of us past that age to judge, but we can still empathize. It’s also very easy to say- close the bars! when it’s not OUR business or income on the line. Being able to pay their bills and make a living is just as “essential” to them as anyone else. And this isn’t even consistent from state to state even corrected for “case” numbers.

Also I think this is applying to restaurants as well. We were just in Seattle and if want to get something to eat after 9pm- good luck! Many places were stopping serving food by then to be able to get out and close on time.

 

[cman]

Well true an owner is going to “overhear” stuff. And actually some areas ARE also trying to police what people do in their own homes (and don’t get me started on “snitch” lines omg). But the bar owner also deserves to keep his business open. If bowling alleys and movie theaters can open (both of whom can have food so no mask wearing) why can’t bars? It’s this arbitrary picking out of businesses that is inconsistent and really unnecessary.
Not everyone goes to a bar to get stupid drunk either- even late at night- and midnight isn’t that late. It’s not like asking for 2 or 3 am!. Some may just enjoy having someone else make the drinks, and be able to talk with another live human being and not stupid zoom. It’s very easy for those of us past that age to judge, but we can still empathize. It’s also very easy to say- close the bars! when it’s not OUR business or income on the line. Being able to pay their bills and make a living is just as “essential” to them as anyone else. And this isn’t even consistent from state to state even corrected for “case” numbers.

Also I think this is applying to restaurants as well. We were just in Seattle and if want to get something to eat after 9pm- good luck! Many places were stopping serving food by then to be able to get out and close on time.

Give this a read. I empathize with the bar owners also but the epidemiologists that do this for a living are in agreement that bars are a problem.

Public health experts and top health officials, including the Dr. Tony Fauci, say the evidence is abundantly clear: When bars open, infections tend to follow.

The evidence that bars are a particular problem has continued to grow, says Dr. Ogechika Alozie, an infectious disease specialist in El Paso, Texas.

How Bars Are Fueling COVID-19 Outbreaks

To owners of bars and nightclubs, pandemic restrictions on the industry can feel punitive. But there are important differences, virus hunters say, between a bar and a restaurant that serves alcohol.

www.npr.org

.

This is also an interesting article on the subject of bars. Cases double a few weeks after they reopen them on average.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/09/14/covid-spread-restaurants-bars/?arc404=true

 

[VegasBella]

Vegas is re-opening bars today.

We shall see how that goes. I anticipate another spike. I think what they're doing is opening the floodgates little by little, here and there, knowing that it will increase case rates, hospitalizations, and deaths. But hoping that if they do it slowly it won't overwhelm the healthcare system. And that if they do these things and there's a spike it's easier to shut it down again quickly rather than opening and shutting everything at once. Piecemeal re-openings. They are basically throwing bones to the businesses, trying to keep the economy afloat. It's a tightrope walk trying to balance the health needs of the community with the economic needs.

Schools remain closed though they did re-open playgrounds today also. Personally, I support opening bars far more than I support opening schools. The primary reason is that adults choose to go to bars but kids don't have a free choice. If either are hotbeds for COVID spread then at least constrain the spread as much as possible to consenting adults.

 

[pedro47]

Should you wear a mask for casual walking ?