CDC: People with Covid 19 twice as likely to have eaten out at a restaurant

[davidvel]

Can we stop with the ridiculous false equivalencies between any other risk in the known universe and the risk presented by a worldwide super-contagious virus that is not detectable at first glance in every single person who's carrying/spreading it?

And can we also stop with the passive/agressive comments about "fear" being what drives some of us to listen to the experts who tell us that if we're going to have any chance at all of ever getting back to some semblance of normalcy, even after a vaccine might be developed, we should be following established practices (masks, social distancing, etc) that have been utilized with success all over the world during the last century? Fear isn't my driver; compassion is.

Cripes. We couldn't be more dismissive of each other if we tried.

And yet Sue, the first sentence of your post was entirely dismissive of anyone who might think that the risks of the virus, and the attendant response which has devastated so many, has been wholly overblown in proportion/relation to other risks we face every day when we leave our homes. Maybe out of good intentions, political reasons, fear, or a mix of all of these.

 

[geekette]

And yet Sue, the first sentence of your post was entirely dismissive of anyone who might think that the risks of the virus, and the attendant response which has devastated so many, has been wholly overblown in proportion/relation to other risks we face every day when we leave our homes. Maybe out of good intentions, political reasons, fear, or a mix of all of these.

I guess you didn't read Sue's entire post.

Here's how it ended:

Cripes. We couldn't be more dismissive of each other if we tried.

I personally think that a brand new virus we don't have much experience with is quite different from known and long ago mitigated risks "we face every day". Some of us don't think the soon-to-be-200000 dead Americans in a matter of months is overblown, plus the many that have enduring problems from having had the virus while medical science cannot yet ward off those nasty remnants. Leg or back broken in a car crash? there is help for that.

One person's view of mass death and disease can coexist with someone else's belief that it's just the flu. But it will never be true that known risks are the same as unknown risks.

 

[bluehende]

And yet Sue, the first sentence of your post was entirely dismissive of anyone who might think that the risks of the virus, and the attendant response which has devastated so many, has been wholly overblown in proportion/relation to other risks we face every day when we leave our homes. Maybe out of good intentions, political reasons, fear, or a mix of all of these.

Not sure where you get this. The response was not mentioned anywhere. This was a mask discussion. Now I will plead guilty if you call me dismissive of those that somehow feel that their minor inconvenience some how trumps hundreds of thousands dying. In fact I would say Sue was the one lobbying for how we could open up.

The US coronavirus death toll is projected to reach 410,000 in the next 4 months if mask use wanes

More than 410,000 people in the US could die from the coronavirus by January 1, more than doubling the current death toll, a new model often cited by top health officials predicted Friday.

www.cnn.com

 

[Old Hickory]

Can we stop with the ridiculous false equivalencies between any other risk in the known universe and the risk presented by a worldwide super-contagious virus that is not detectable at first glance in every single person who's carrying/spreading it?

And can we also stop with the passive/agressive comments about "fear" being what drives some of us to listen to the experts who tell us that if we're going to have any chance at all of ever getting back to some semblance of normalcy, even after a vaccine might be developed, we should be following established practices (masks, social distancing, etc) that have been utilized with success all over the world during the last century? Fear isn't my driver; compassion is.

Cripes. We couldn't be more dismissive of each other if we tried.

Hyperbole, some?

 

[geekette]

Hyperbole, some?

Probably you want to quote all hyperbolic posts, not just one.

 

[klpca]

Full disclosure - I am a pro-masker (and fiscal conservative) and I believe the research that says that it offers protection - plus it costs probably 50 cents and is a heck of a lot cheaper than a vaccine. And I am not afraid of much in life but there's no way that I want to deal with getting covid. No thanks. I had the flu in January and I seriously thought I was going to die (obviously I wasn't but the pain that I was in for 48 hours was pretty bad) so I am in no hurry to go through something like that again.

People adjust to risk over time and I am pretty sure that we will adjust to the risk of covid as well. Every one of us who has driven safely over our lifetimes has assessed our risk in driving as very close to zero. Those who have been in a serious accident feel that the risk is much higher. Life is funny though, we still have to go to work, the store, our doctor's offices. It requires us to deal with the risk every time we drive anywhere. We still need everyone else in society to observe the laws of the road - not to reduce our risk to zero (absolutely impossible because stuff happens) but to reduce risk to an acceptable level. Expecting people to stay home to mitigate their risk of driving is not realistic.

Talking about CA in my post, not VA. CA remains closed, completely and totally closed.

I think that was just LA county. Schools in San Diego county are opening slowly.

 

[Brett]

Ahhhh, but it is the others who do not mitigate the risks by driving without insurance, or intoxicated, or not wearing their seat belts or do not obey the driving regulations that still make driving risky for everyone else- just as the pro maskers acuse those who do not wear masks or distance as not caring about them and making things more risky.

Therefore, the pro maskers stay home as much as possible out of fear (ex: not eating out in restaurants). So one would think the same should be with driving then.

Can we stop with the ridiculous false equivalencies between any other risk in the known universe and the risk presented by a worldwide super-contagious virus that is not detectable at first glance in every single person who's carrying/spreading it?

And can we also stop with the passive/agressive comments about "fear" being what drives some of us to listen to the experts who tell us that if we're going to have any chance at all of ever getting back to some semblance of normalcy, even after a vaccine might be developed, we should be following established practices (masks, social distancing, etc) that have been utilized with success all over the world during the last century? Fear isn't my driver; compassion is.

Cripes. We couldn't be more dismissive of each other if we tried.

yes, driving without a seat belt or driving intoxicated is not the same as not using mask in the COVID pandemic
I'm "pro mask" and I eat at restaurants and visit stores ...... and I wear a seat belt while driving

 

[rickandcindy23]

The Washington Examiner, where the article about the LA County schools was found, is a conservative paper. Not sure I'd trust their slant on this. And this interview, or statement, was from ONE person. So again, may not be a totally unbiased view of what is going on in the entire state of California. Plus, the state is not completely and totally closed.

I don't trust a lot of sources that I see here on TUG. Just because it's conservative, doesn't mean it's not factual. I actually saw the woman saying that while I was watching our local news. So it happened.

 

[Luanne]

I don't trust a lot of sources that I see here on TUG. Just because it's conservative, doesn't mean it's not factual. I actually saw the woman saying that while I was watching our local news. So it happened.

Didn't say it didn't happen. Just cautious of the spin the publication might put on it.

 

[Patri]

Didn't say it didn't happen. Just cautious of the spin the publication might put on it.

Every publication has a spin. Be wary of every single one.

 

[geekette]

Every publication has a spin. Be wary of every single one.

Yes. Consult multiple sources, regardless of topic.

 

[Old Hickory]

Name

Probably you want to quote all hyperbolic posts, not just one.

Okay. Here.

 

[Monykalyn]

Hope the link comes through. Dr Gandhi has done some very interesting research on masks and has good thoughts on the messaging.
TLW (too long; didn't watch)-she says masks are helping drive community immunity due to lower levels of virus load and that is a GOOD thing (getting immunity but not getting "sick"), wear a mask that is comfortable for you. 80% compliance with masking works (so those who cannot wear masks for whatever reason is OK). SHAMING messages do. not. work. -this coming from a doctor who has done extensive work with HIV/AIDS-we need to learn this lesson!!. People need to get away from being afraid of fomite transmission-IOW surface transmission of the virus is nothing to be concerned about, with good hand hygiene (she said you can literally culture viruses from any surface at any time-doesn't mean it is infectious). The messaging on masks has been terrible-better to say they protect you AND others not just the "protect others". At this point contact tracing won't work-too much virus out there. Concentrate testing on the vulnerable communities-nursing homes, frontline and essential workers etc-vs everyone. She also advocates for opening playgrounds, beaches etc, while keeping masks and distancing in place, but allow people to see each other again! Good gravy see your grandkids etc. Her big thing is now how to resume living while mitigating risk-and wearing a comfortable mask is big part of that

Now imagine if this had been the message all along...where would we be?

 

[amycurl]

Now imagine if this had been the message all along...where would we be?

That's kind of a ridiculous question, because we didn't know about the low-risk of fomite transmission in March-May....that didn't become clear until June. There's also been no national, consistent messaging of ANY kind at any point in the pandemic--and there still isn't. I suspect, if there was/hand been, we'd look more like South Korea at this point than, well, the US.

Contact tracing works VERY WELL at isolating cases and reducing spread, but you need to have a percent positive rate under 5%--which quite a few states do have at this point. In some states/communities, where percent positive rates are in the double-digits, then, yes, that's too much spread to make contact tracing effective. I would also disagree about testing *only* vulnerable communities, because you can NOT be a member of a vulnerable community and have a negative outcome with COVID. Sentinel testing of asymptomatic/non-vulnerable populations is still key in order to isolate those asymptomatic carriers. Don't want to do individual tests? Fine--do community-wide effluent testing instead. But keep dong it. Knowledge is power.

 

[Monykalyn]

That's kind of a ridiculous question, because we didn't know about the low-risk of fomite transmission in March-May....that didn't become clear until June. There's also been no national, consistent messaging of ANY kind at any point in the pandemic--and there still isn't. I suspect, if there was/hand been, we'd look more like South Korea at this point than, well, the US.

I don't think it was "ridiculous" as it is a respiratory disease, and even the early china studies showed possible airborne transmission, but not fomite transmission. And the media (and some people) STILL haven't let go of the "we must sanitize everything in sight every 20 minutes or we will all DIE" mentality-all that is hygiene theater at this point, just like temp checks. At any rate the science has PROVEN fomites are NOT a large (maybe miniscule if extremely unlucky) vector, but public policy has not changed. Still have paper disposable menus, still have to have classrooms "sanitized" daily (cleaning is good-always-but this focus on "sanitizing to reduce transmission risk" is ridiculous spin when the disease is better reduced with good airflow/ventilation). Although I confess I kinda like the QR code menus I can go look back and see desserts, drinks etc - they always take menus away once you order lol. I'd dispute that we didn't know until June either...maybe media didn't pick up on it, but way back even in April it was known it was a very low risk vector.

Contact tracing works if elimination is the goal, or to monitor small outbreaks, the virus is too widespread right now. The virus will NOT be eliminated. It will be/can be suppressed to background levels, but all we are doing NOW is wasting time and resources testing low risk populations. Many epidemiologists who are actually working in the field have stated this. The person stating this is a well known doctor who's been working in the field for 20+ years-so gonna listen to HER vs "I go with whatever way the wind blows" Fauci and Dix.

Effluent tracing may be the most efficient way to monitor if an outbreak is about to happen-but what politician is going to back this (actually the ads championing this could be hilarious though)? It would make way too much sense and not cause panic, even when it has already worked...Perhaps the smarter communities will demand this and not wait for politicians to catch up???? Covid isn't the only threat facing public health but it IS the only thing this country is focusing on even though it is long past time to restart focusing on other things as well.

 

[Fredward]

I have an issue with the CDC publishing a case control study of only 314 people- only half of which tested positive for COVID- statistically implicating restaurants, coffee shops and bars as high risk exposures. Dig through the actual MMWR report and you’ll find some major differences in other statistics, including education, ethnicity and exposure to identified cases. They technically could have said that education level influenced risk but that’s not PC.
State policies are being influenced by these “experts” and as of today our Pennsylvania restaurants are only permitted to have 25% occupancy indoors. Whoever designed a study that did not differentiate between indoor and outdoor seating but was happy to publish their analysis of risk should consider reviewing their Epidemiology 101 textbook. I expect better


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[geekette]

....The person stating this is a well known doctor who's been working in the field for 20+ years-so gonna listen to HER vs "I go with whatever way the wind blows" Fauci and Dix.

Good luck with that. I'll take Fauci's known track record and ignore your slander.

 

[davidvel]

And California's metric for closing down is even more absurd. As our percent positive and number of deaths plummeted, and local areas qualified for reopening under the former "science based formulae", the state created a new measure to close these areas back down. They added "Case Rate" which is the total number of positive tests (not the percent positive) per population, which does not account for the number of tests given. So as they push for more and more testing, with a fairly consistent positive rate, you necessarily get more positive tests. Test less, you have a lower Case Rate.

This is a ludicrous metric, as it is driven by the number of tests administered. In fact, it creates a disincentive for more testing. It is not logical, and is not scientific. But yet, it is ruining the world's third largest economy.

 

[Monykalyn]

And California's metric for closing down is even more absurd. As our percent positive and number of deaths plummeted, and local areas qualified for reopening under the former "science based formulae", the state created a new measure to close these areas back down. They added "Case Rate" which is the total number of positive tests (not the percent positive) per population, which does not account for the number of tests given. So as they push for more and more testing, with a fairly consistent positive rate, you necessarily get more positive tests. Test less, you have a lower Case Rate.

This is a ludicrous metric, as it is driven by the number of tests administered. In fact, it creates a disincentive for more testing. It is not logical, and is not scientific. But yet, it is ruining the world's third largest economy.

California makes zero sense. [expunged] No science based reason to keep indoor dining closed during SUMMER months when the spread had DRAMATICALLY declined, and better chance to keep good ventilation going. But gotta keep moving the goal posts...
So has it made major media that USA excessive deaths have been BELOW average since end of August? No? How about decreasing hospital rate? How about NO spikes in hospitalizations among college kids? All we hear about is horrible college kids trying to kill grandma...time to get OUT of March panic mode mind set and get with what is happening NOW. But that would mean no reason to keep anything closed, while keep masking when indoors, open playgrounds etc and let life resume without constant fear...hmmm clicks and advertising dollars would probably fade away...

So yeah I’ll “slander” FaucI et al for not pointing out any positives and as always, muddying any message to the public.

 

[WinniWoman]

My husband and I rarely ever eat out- now or in the past, but because we are now retired, have been on vacation, and other things we would like to do are either closed or require masks (which we refuse to do for long periods), we have eaten out more than usual. Indoor and outdoor and at other peoples homes.

In fact, we just ate at the bar at a restaurant/brewery where our son works so we could get to see him since he works 7 days per week and long hours. And we were very close to two other couples we did not know when we were seated.

My neighbors eat out all the time. In fact, once couple eats out most of the time. All are older like us. Go figure.

We are attending a barbecue on Sunday with a group of about 30+ people we have never met. I am conscious but we are going. Most will be young men and woman. Wish us luck.

Well- we attended that big no mask barbecue on Sunday. I would estimate around 50 people- most people with a few exceptions had never met each other in person. It was held indoors and outdoors and at one point everyone was indoors in one big room shoulder to shoulder for a meeting. We ate each other's food (someone made a fabulous warm apple crisp!), we shook hands, some people hugged me as we left. Outside people sat next or stood next to each other as well. Naturally everyone was talking. One or two people even- wait for it- sneezed or coughed! But- guess what? They turned away and covered their mouths and nose! Will you look at that!

There were a couple of corn hole games going on. The children (and dogs) were all outside running around playing like they should. Very normal-at least as how I consider normal should be.

I told Anthony (my husband) this will be an interesting in terms of COVID.

Now it is Thursday- so far so good. We feel fine and we felt even better having to have been to the barbecue with like minded folks.

PS Many people were our age or even way older. It was a mixture of young, middle age and old.

 

[uf_gator_87]

I suspect it's not just the fact they eat out at restaurants, but that they will be more likely to be other places as they are comfortable being out and about.

Agree: correlation ≠ causation

 

[Chrisky]

I have not read all the posts, my apologies.
But here in our province we are beginning to get a spike in cases. A small number is because we are starting to open up our schools, so a few positive cases for teachers and a few students who now have to be quarantined and in some cases the entire class.
But the rest of the increase is due to people attending larger gatherings and people not social distancing or wearing masks. Today 70% of the cases are in the under 40 year olds who have attended gatherings in doors of 50 people (and maybe more) or outdoor venues of more than 100. As of today we are allowed 50 people indoors, but if we cannot distance ourselves then masks must be worn, the same procedure for the larger outdoor groups. These indoor gatherings are in homes or larger banquet halls used for weddings, christening/baptism parties etc.
People eating at outdoor patios and in restaurants have not been impacted because these businesses are extremely vigilant in keeping patrons separated and sanitizing everything in sight.
This may all change in a few days, when the Premier of Ontario may scale some areas back to stage 2 or 1 for a certain length of time to reduce our increase.

 

[davidvel]

Well- we attended that big no mask barbecue on Sunday. I would estimate around 50 people- most people with a few exceptions had never met each other in person. It was held indoors and outdoors and at one point everyone was indoors in one big room shoulder to shoulder for a meeting. We ate each other's food (someone made a fabulous warm apple crisp!), we shook hands, some people hugged me as we left. Outside people sat next or stood next to each other as well. Naturally everyone was talking. One or two people even- wait for it- sneezed or coughed! But- guess what? They turned away and covered their mouths and nose! Will you look at that!

There were a couple of corn hole games going on. The children (and dogs) were all outside running around playing like they should. Very normal-at least as how I consider normal should be.

I told Anthony (my husband) this will be an interesting in terms of COVID.

Now it is Thursday- so far so good. We feel fine and we felt even better having to have been to the barbecue with like minded folks.

PS Many people were our age or even way older. It was a mixture of young, middle age and old.

I'm all for opening up, and lifting absurd restrictions, but this is a very scary scene. I hope we don't see your group on the news one day, good luck to everyone involved.

 

[Old Hickory]

Science?

COVID-19 emails from Nashville mayor's office show disturbing revelation

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (WZTV) — The coronavirus cases on lower Broadway may have been so low that the mayor’s office and the Metro Health Department decided to keep it secret. Emails between the mayor’s senior advisor and the health department reveal only a partial picture. But what they reveal is...

fox17.com

 

[Chrisky]

Science?

COVID-19 emails from Nashville mayor's office show disturbing revelation

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (WZTV) — The coronavirus cases on lower Broadway may have been so low that the mayor’s office and the Metro Health Department decided to keep it secret. Emails between the mayor’s senior advisor and the health department reveal only a partial picture. But what they reveal is...

fox17.com

Well, this is Fox news!! But regardless of who it is reporting this, there are always some people trying to fudge the numbers, be it from the bottom, all the way up to the top.
We all have to be vigilant, and read, read. read all news and health official reports, not just reporting from one source!!