Carnival Cruise Line threatens to remove its ships from US home ports to sail elsewhere

[emeryjre]

At this point, when you return to the US from an international destination, a negative Covid test has to be provided to get on the plane. So as long as that requirement is in place, flying to the Islands to catch a cruise, still has some concern about a positive test and getting stuck there. Having the shots do not help overcome that requirement yet.

 

[AndySamuels]

The sooner healthy / young people get infected the sooner this will all be over.

 

[artringwald]

The sooner healthy / young people get infected the sooner this will all be over.

And if those young people get infected and spread it to older people, they could be over.

 

[AndySamuels]

Yes: it is key young people keep away from the elderly and/or those with pre-existing conditions. No disagreement there!

 

[artringwald]

Yes: it is key young people keep away from the elderly and/or those with pre-existing conditions. No disagreement there!

If vaccines for young people are approved, they could keep it from spreading without risking lives.

 

[AndySamuels]

Maybe. I for one will not vaccinate my children with an emergency vaccine that has not been evaluated for long term risk. Plus my oldest already had COVID so we probably all did already. I believe I already had it twice.

Good news: herd immunity is accelerating as are vaccinations:

FLORIDA COVID DRAMA: Huge Surge In New Cases, Record Set - BocaNewsNow.com

BY: STAFF REPORT | BocaNewsNow.com

bocanewsnow.com

Passings are trending down: each passing is one too many of course. In many cases there are co-morbidities unfortunately. A combination of continued vaccination and accelerated infection of the young & healthy will hopefully soon fire break the virus and its variants.

7,939 new Florida coronavirus cases reported Thursday; 84 new deaths

The Florida Department of Health says the number of known cases of COVID-19 in the state rose by 7,939 Thursday. According to the state's daily update, the total number of cases in Florida since the pandemic began is now 2,104,686.

www.fox13news.com

 

[MrockStar]

Ok, happy cruising everybody.

 

[Passepartout]

Many of the younger people who are contracting Covid now are reporting long lasting debilitating issues involving 'brain fog', shortness of breath, low grade fever, loss of taste, and I can see from comments from newcomers here that there MUST be some loss of mental faculty from long term refusal to accept facts.

Jim

 

[Ken555]

I have a question for you, and anyone else planning a cruise. Do you have any concern about being in port among people who potentially are not vaccinated?

Yes.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[artringwald]

I for one will not vaccinate my children with an emergency vaccine that has not been evaluated for long term risk.

Risk assessment is hard to do when none knows the long term effects of the vaccine or the long term effects of asymptomatic contraction of the virus. It's an easier decision when you're over 70 like I am. I got vaccinated as soon as I could.

 

[AndySamuels]

Agreed!

 

[Talent312]

What if they dry docked their ships and opened them as hotels+restaurants?
Would those opposed to cruising, also be opposed to a ship-like resort?
.

 

[pedro47]

Go bye Carnival, I will not miss you sailing from a US port.

 

[Mongoose]

It isn't their choice. NO cruise ships are allowed to arrive in, or depart from ANY US ports. When the powers that be feel that cruising can be done safely, they'll be back. But for now, Take a chill pill!

I wish that was the case, however everything from Washington with COVID has been political. The tiresome Red/Blue fight. The decisions they are making are not based on science, they are based on political gamesmanship.

 

[bbodb1]

Hmmm, US flights to get to and the cruise, hotels for stays before and after the cruise, food purchased prior to and after the cruise, rental cars to see the local area before and after, food/toiletries/gift merchandise/etc purchased by the cruise ship to replenish stock, fuel so the ship can actually move, port charges and taxes, terminal rental for embarkation/disembarkation......oh, and and wages for all of the employees operating all of those things. That's the revenue they produce (and then some). North America had over 14 million cruise passengers in 2019. Yea, with the money they spend before and after the cruise and what the cruise line spends themselves, that's a couple of bucks here and there.

Getting back to this point - I question whether the economic benefits of the cruising industry are all that significant to the U.S. Economy. Your points here about the areas where money is spent ancillary to the cruising experience may not be all that typical, but even if taken at face value, would these benefits be anywhere near significant (and necessary) to the economy as the cargo operations are?

Again, the cruise line profits are bound to companies based in other countries (to avoid paying U.S. taxes among other reasons). Sure, some of the other cruise related activities you mention will create revenue for (more likely) U.S. based companies and tax revenue for the areas around the ports. My position is the cruising industry just is not that essential to the ongoing health of the U.S. Economy since it does not occupy a very large portion of the economy. Yes, every dollar helps but I would be much more worried about the cargo operations around a port than the passenger operations. I don't see the return of cruising as essential to the recovery and on going health of the U.S. Economy.

 

[bbodb1]

Maybe. I for one will not vaccinate my children with an emergency vaccine that has not been evaluated for long term risk. Plus my oldest already had COVID so we probably all did already. I believe I already had it twice.

Good news: herd immunity is accelerating as are vaccinations:

FLORIDA COVID DRAMA: Huge Surge In New Cases, Record Set - BocaNewsNow.com

BY: STAFF REPORT | BocaNewsNow.com

bocanewsnow.com

Passings are trending down: each passing is one too many of course. In many cases there are co-morbidities unfortunately. A combination of continued vaccination and accelerated infection of the young & healthy will hopefully soon fire break the virus and its variants.

7,939 new Florida coronavirus cases reported Thursday; 84 new deaths

The Florida Department of Health says the number of known cases of COVID-19 in the state rose by 7,939 Thursday. According to the state's daily update, the total number of cases in Florida since the pandemic began is now 2,104,686.

www.fox13news.com

I have mentioned this before elsewhere, but I work in a public school and the typical teacher is female with a considerable portion of them still in the childbearing years. Many of them have decline or refused the vaccine to this point because of a lack of data on the long term effects. As they should - unless there is a situation where an immediate family member may be exceptionally at risk.

A longer track record (more data over time) is needed before these women will take the vaccine.
Some people still recall the horrors with respect to thalidomide.

 

[Gypsy65]

Getting back to this point - I question whether the economic benefits of the cruising industry are all that significant to the U.S. Economy. Your points here about the areas where money is spent ancillary to the cruising experience may not be all that typical, but even if taken at face value, would these benefits be anywhere near significant (and necessary) to the economy as the cargo operations are?

Again, the cruise line profits are bound to companies based in other countries (to avoid paying U.S. taxes among other reasons). Sure, some of the other cruise related activities you mention will create revenue for (more likely) U.S. based companies and tax revenue for the areas around the ports. My position is the cruising industry just is not that essential to the ongoing health of the U.S. Economy since it does not occupy a very large portion of the economy. Yes, every dollar helps but I would be much more worried about the cargo operations around a port than the passenger operations. I don't see the return of cruising as essential to the recovery and on going health of the U.S. Economy.

It’s not just X or Y cruise line

The unseen money is much higher

Travel by air or whatever
Food grown, shipped , and prepared by restaurants where cruisers go before or after a cruise
Hotels
Rental cars
Local deep sea fishing for the same reason
Trucking of products to ships or local companies who make $ from travelers either at home or port States

The list is very extensive on who benefits from just the cruise line’s

 

[Fried_shrimp]

Getting back to this point - I question whether the economic benefits of the cruising industry are all that significant to the U.S. Economy. Your points here about the areas where money is spent ancillary to the cruising experience may not be all that typical, but even if taken at face value, would these benefits be anywhere near significant (and necessary) to the economy as the cargo operations are?

Again, the cruise line profits are bound to companies based in other countries (to avoid paying U.S. taxes among other reasons). Sure, some of the other cruise related activities you mention will create revenue for (more likely) U.S. based companies and tax revenue for the areas around the ports. My position is the cruising industry just is not that essential to the ongoing health of the U.S. Economy since it does not occupy a very large portion of the economy. Yes, every dollar helps but I would be much more worried about the cargo operations around a port than the passenger operations. I don't see the return of cruising as essential to the recovery and on going health of the U.S. Economy.

I never stated the US cruise industry is a significant factor to the US economy. But it is a significant factor to the Florida economy with 5 cruise ports hence Gov DeSantis filing a lawsuit against the CDC.

 

[VacationForever]

Getting back to this point - I question whether the economic benefits of the cruising industry are all that significant to the U.S. Economy. Your points here about the areas where money is spent ancillary to the cruising experience may not be all that typical, but even if taken at face value, would these benefits be anywhere near significant (and necessary) to the economy as the cargo operations are?

Again, the cruise line profits are bound to companies based in other countries (to avoid paying U.S. taxes among other reasons). Sure, some of the other cruise related activities you mention will create revenue for (more likely) U.S. based companies and tax revenue for the areas around the ports. My position is the cruising industry just is not that essential to the ongoing health of the U.S. Economy since it does not occupy a very large portion of the economy. Yes, every dollar helps but I would be much more worried about the cargo operations around a port than the passenger operations. I don't see the return of cruising as essential to the recovery and on going health of the U.S. Economy.

I agree. Cruise lines are mostly registered outside of the US, if not all, and almost all employees/contract workers are non-USA residents. Cruise port businesses get financial benefit from cruises but fairly insignificant.

 

[Mongoose]

Risk assessment is hard to do when none knows the long term effects of the vaccine or the long term effects of asymptomatic contraction of the virus. It's an easier decision when you're over 70 like I am. I got vaccinated as soon as I could.

I agree completely. People seem to forget that these are only EUA and no one knows how long they provide protection for. Those that are at high risk should strongly consider the vaccine. Those that are at low risk should probably not. The data shows the death rate for children is 300% higher for the common flu than COVID.

 

[Fried_shrimp]

I agree. Cruise lines are mostly registered outside of the US, if not all, and almost all employees/contract workers are non-USA residents. Cruise port businesses get financial benefit from cruises but fairly insignificant.

You may not know this but all of the headquarters for the major cruise lines are located in the US. So the cruise industry does pay a large amount of taxes in the US not to mention the thousands of US citizens it employees to work not only in those buildings but in it's multitude of service and sales centers.

To add: there are also some American citizens that actually work on the ship as well. Many of the entertainment staff (dancers, singers, piano players) are American citizens as well as all of the comedians they fly into the ships.

 

[Ken555]

You may not know this but all of the headquarters for the major cruise lines are also located in the US. So the cruise industry does pay a large amount of taxes in the US not to mention the thousands of US citizens it employees to work not only in those buildings but in it's multitude of service and sales centers.

Most cruise lines don't pay federal income tax — just one of the reasons they aren't getting a bailout

"They're not giving up their tax exemption," said one analyst. ”I assure you that is sacrosanct."

www.nbcnews.com

The three biggest cruise lines are incorporated in what are called equivalent exemption countries where they are not required to pay the 21 percent corporate income tax that U.S. companies are obligated to pay, said Robert Willens, a tax and accounting analyst.

If they moved to the US...

[...]Carnival, the biggest U.S. cruise line company, would have had to pay around $600 million in corporate taxes on its reported $3 billion in income for 2019.

Fact Check: Do Cruise Lines Pay US Taxes?

As many states prepare to reopen after three months of self-isolation and social distancing, cruisers are finding the travel itch a bit difficult to scratch.

cruiseradio.net

Provisions under the U.S. Internal Revenue Code allow foreign corporations — like cruise lines — to do business in America without being taxed federally, as long as they are registered in countries that have reciprocal agreements with the U.S.

How much do cruise lines pay in taxes?

In 2019, Carnival Corp. paid $71 million in taxes on $3.06 billion in income. In the same year, Royal Caribbean Cruises, Ltd. paid $25.5 million in taxes on $1.8 billion in income, and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings paid $18.9 million in taxes on more than $911 million in income.

That works out to a tax rate of 2.32% for Carnival Corp., 1.4% for Royal Caribbean Cruises, Ltd. and 2.07% for Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings.

According to PricewaterhouseCoopers, the federal tax rate for foreign corporations that are not tax-exempt is 21%; when combined with state and local taxes, that rate goes up to 25.75% for non-tax-exempt foreign corporations.

 

[bbodb1]

I never stated the US cruise industry is a significant factor to the US economy. But it is a significant factor to the Florida economy with 5 cruise ports hence Gov DeSantis filing a lawsuit against the CDC.

You may not know this but all of the headquarters for the major cruise lines are located in the US. So the cruise industry does pay a large amount of taxes in the US not to mention the thousands of US citizens it employees to work not only in those buildings but in it's multitude of service and sales centers.

To add: there are also some American citizens that actually work on the ship as well. Many of the entertainment staff (dancers, singers, piano players) are American citizens as well as all of the comedians they fly into the ships.

I have to admit that my first thoughts were similar to Ken's (in this area only - ) as the cruise industry takes advantage of legal means available to avoid taxation and the U.S. wage laws. To say the cruise industry pays a large amount of taxes is an incomplete comparison if you don't factor in the taxes they avoid via the reciprocal agreements. Now to be fair, any business can (and should) look for all legal means to minimize its tax bill - just as every consumer does (should). Is this an area where reform or review of the tax code is needed? Absolutely.

Your point about the cruise industry being important to Florida made me wonder just how significant the cruise industry is to the tourism sector of the Florida economy. According to the article below, it suggests the cruise industry is responsible for roughly 10% of the tourism occurring in Florida. A quote from the Investopedia article:

...According to a Cruise Lines International Association 2019 study, Florida's cruise industry generated 12.4 million passenger and crew visits, accounting for almost 50% of all passenger and crew visits in the United States. Onshore spending by passengers and crews produced just over $1.2 billion. Total passenger and crew spending in Florida increased by 15% in 2018 from 2016....

One would have to assume this study by the Cruise Lines International Association would likely portray the cruise lines in as favorable a light as possible, but if their claim(s) that cruising amounts to about 10% of the tourism dollars spent in Florida is reasonably accurate, it would NOT be the first area of tourism the Governor would be concerned about with respect to their resumption and economic well being.....but it would not be the last either.

Gross Domestic Product (GDP): Formula and How to Use It

Gross domestic product is the monetary value of all finished goods and services made within a country during a specific period.

www.investopedia.com

One other point - where you mention taxes, it might be fairer to say user fees. Cruise lines do remit a lot of money to state local governments but primarily in the form of port fees and taxes collected from the consumer.

 

[Fried_shrimp]

I have to admit that my first thoughts were similar to Ken's (in this area only - ) as the cruise industry takes advantage of legal means available to avoid taxation and the U.S. wage laws. To say the cruise industry pays a large amount of taxes is an incomplete comparison if you don't factor in the taxes they avoid via the reciprocal agreements. Now to be fair, any business can (and should) look for all legal means to minimize its tax bill - just as every consumer does (should). Is this an area where reform or review of the tax code is needed? Absolutely.

Your point about the cruise industry being important to Florida made me wonder just how significant the cruise industry is to the tourism sector of the Florida economy. According to the article below, it suggests the cruise industry is responsible for roughly 10% of the tourism occurring in Florida. A quote from the Investopedia article:


One would have to assume this study by the Cruise Lines International Association would likely portray the cruise lines in as favorable a light as possible, but if their claim(s) that cruising amounts to about 10% of the tourism dollars spent in Florida is reasonably accurate, it would NOT be the first area of tourism the Governor would be concerned about with respect to their resumption and economic well being.....but it would not be the last either.

Gross Domestic Product (GDP): Formula and How to Use It

Gross domestic product is the monetary value of all finished goods and services made within a country during a specific period.

www.investopedia.com

One other point - where you mention taxes, it might be fairer to say user fees. Cruise lines do remit a lot of money to state local governments but primarily in the form of port fees and taxes collected from the consumer.

I live in Florida. Most, if not all, other tourism sources have been open since last July. Cruising is the only large tourism center not allowed to open. If the 10% number is accurate, try taking 10% from any economy and see how much it hurts. While this may not affect someone living in Delaware, it most certainly affects someone living in Florida and especially those who rely on that part of the economy to make a living, whether they are American or not.

If you go back to the beginning of the thread though, what infuriate me the most is the cavalier attitude of the first few posters with their "bye bye" and "see ya" posts. There are many, many companies that move their facilities outside of the US due to tax/regulation concerns (all of the big car makers/Nike/etc...) with nary a word about it. Also, other cruise lines (Royal and NCL) stated prior to Carnival's media release that they were going to start operations outside of the US with not a peep being made. So is it just a general disdain for Carnival, the largest, most successful of all of the cruise lines, or a disdain for the entire cruising industry? In either case, such flippancy is uncalled for as Carnival is just a business, like Disney/Universal/Seaworld that is trying to figure out how to keep it's head above water and keep a business alive during these times that so many people count on for employment and pleasure. While I don't work for the cruise line industry, I certainly can empathize with those who do and how their lives, both in the US and overseas, have been utterly disrupted, and in many cases, destroyed, by the actions of the CDC.

 

[bbodb1]

I live in Florida. Most, if not all, other tourism sources have been open since last July. Cruising is the only large tourism center not allowed to open. If the 10% number is accurate, try taking 10% from any economy and see how much it hurts. While this may not affect someone living in Delaware, it most certainly affects someone living in Florida and especially those who rely on that part of the economy to make a living, whether they are American or not.

If you go back to the beginning of the thread though, what infuriate me the most is the cavalier attitude of the first few posters with their "bye bye" and "see ya" posts. There are many, many companies that move their facilities outside of the US due to tax/regulation concerns (all of the big car makers/Nike/etc...) with nary a word about it. Also, other cruise lines (Royal and NCL) stated prior to Carnival's media release that they were going to start operations outside of the US with not a peep being made. So is it just a general disdain for Carnival, the largest, most successful of all of the cruise lines, or a disdain for the entire cruising industry? In either case, such flippancy is uncalled for as Carnival is just a business, like Disney/Universal/Seaworld that is trying to figure out how to keep it's head above water and keep a business alive during these times that so many people count on for employment and pleasure. While I don't work for the cruise line industry, I certainly can empathize with those who do and how their lives, both in the US and overseas, have been utterly disrupted, and in many cases, destroyed, by the actions of the CDC.

I'll admit I am no fan of the cruising industry because of their practice of sailing under foreign flags when they (almost) exclusively depend on U.S. customers. But concurrently, I do recognize the role they play in our economy - and that should not be ignored. I agree that we need our economy to be reopened and moving back toward operating at full capacity. For better or worse, the course has been set and we've been executing it for some time.

The big takeaway is what did we learn from COVID-19, what do we know and how can we better react / respond / prevent this from ever happening again. Among the lessons learned is we can't shut down the economy as we did (in the manner we did it) without some serious negative effects. If anything good is to come from COVID-19, we need to have a much better playbook at the ready for how to deal with a pandemic. While the time to develop a vaccine to combat COVID-19 was agonizingly long by today's standards, I suspect in review, that timeline was very brief compared to previous outbreaks. If our scientific processes improve and streamline and we have to deal with a similar situation again in the future, I hope we are now much better prepared.

The role of the CDC should be reconsidered and reformed as well. In a perfect world, we would have such an entity in existence and free from all outside influence(s). Clearly, we don't live in a perfect world and I don't see any easy answers on how to create an entity like the CDC should be.