Burgers...American staple

[ScoopKona]

We've had a number of fabulous evenings with friends making real pizzas, though some have admittedly strayed from la vera napoletana standards.

Hey, at least you're trying. That's head-and-shoulders better than most.

I haven't even said that I dislike the US food which resembles pizza. National chains aside, most of it is very tasty. But it's not pizza. Chicago deep dish is delicious. And if that's what they called it -- "Chicago deep dish" -- I wouldn't bat an eyelash. It's a tomato, meat and cheese casserole. Lovely. What's not to like? But it's still not pizza.

I don't have delivery here. I'm too remote. But if someone arranged for the place around the corner to drop a pie off on me, I'd be very thankful indeed. Especially if it was pepperoni/sausage/mushroom. With tons of grated cheese. But grated cheese isn't Parmesan. And it's still not pizza. It's good. Just that we're calling it the wrong thing. Our pizza is more like "focaccia covered with toppings."

It's the same thing with Chinese food. The only similarity between US Chinese take-out, and actual Chinese food is the steamed rice. I like US Chinese take out, too. But it's an approximation of Chinese food. My Mandarin-speaking wife will give you an earful about it if you let her.

 

[slip]

Hey, at least you're trying. That's head-and-shoulders better than most.

I haven't even said that I dislike the US food which resembles pizza. National chains aside, most of it is very tasty. But it's not pizza. Chicago deep dish is delicious. And if that's what they called it -- "Chicago deep dish" -- I wouldn't bat an eyelash. It's a tomato, meat and cheese casserole. Lovely. What's not to like? But it's still not pizza.

I don't have delivery here. I'm too remote. But if someone arranged for the place around the corner to drop a pie off on me, I'd be very thankful indeed. Especially if it was pepperoni/sausage/mushroom. With tons of grated cheese. But grated cheese isn't Parmesan. And it's still not pizza. It's good. Just that we're calling it the wrong thing. Our pizza is more like "focaccia covered with toppings."

It's the same thing with Chinese food. The only similarity between US Chinese take-out, and actual Chinese food is the steamed rice. I like US Chinese take out, too. But it's an approximation of Chinese food. My Mandarin-speaking wife will give you an earful about it if you let her.

So this brings up, what's your definition of Pizza? Most dictionaries list it as below. And that doesn't even go into the history of the word.

a dish of Italian origin consisting of a flat, round base of dough baked with a topping of tomato sauce and cheese, typically with added meat or vegetables.

 

[ScoopKona]

So this brings up, what's your definition of Pizza? Most US dictionaries list it as below. And that doesn't even go into the history of the word.

A fermented dough, made from 00 flour, stretched so thin it's translucent, very lightly topped, and then cooked in a wood-fired oven at around 475C for a matter of seconds. Nothing else is pizza.

The problem with US "pizza" is the ovens are cooler, which means the dough must be necessarily thicker, and they add more toppings because of the pillowy consistency of the dough.

In Italy, people have stone/brick ovens with the same regularity Americans have backyard grills. They take it very, very seriously. (And although pizza is a fun food, it is also something which must be taken seriously.) I wish we had a similar culture here. The pizza would improve at a stroke.

 

[TravelTime]

Going back to the burger discussion, we just made turkey burgers. I like making our own with lean turkey. I am not into red meat and fatty foods. My kids who love beef burgers said our turkey burgers were better than any burger they have ever had. My 6 year old daughter ate 1-1/2 burgers, more than any of us. She ate the half of mine I could not finish. I keep wondering where she fits the food in her tiny 40 pound body.

 

[slip]

A fermented dough, made from 00 flour, stretched so thin it's translucent, very lightly topped, and then cooked in a wood-fired oven at around 475C for a matter of seconds. Nothing else is pizza.

The problem with US "pizza" is the ovens are cooler, which means the dough must be necessarily thicker, and they add more toppings because of the pillowy consistency of the dough.

In Italy, people have stone/brick ovens with the same regularity Americans have backyard grills. They take it very, very seriously. (And although pizza is a fun food, it is also something which must be taken seriously.) I wish we had a similar culture here. The pizza would improve at a stroke.

Well, I'm fine with our pizza scene here in the US. I'm from Chicago and I even love the deep dish pizza.

Now back to burgers. I honestly haven't had too many bad ones of those either.

 

[TravelTime]

I like that there is a variety of types of pizza. To say only an Italian thin crust pizza made in a wood burning oven is the only pizza, is like saying the Model T is the only real car.

 

[bluehende]

One thing I am not is a pizza snob. I have never met a pizza I didn't like.

My cousin lived by these words. There is no such thing as bad pizza. There is good pizza and better pizza but no bad pizza.

 

[ScoopKona]

I like that there is a variety of types of pizza. To say only an Italian thin crust pizza made in a wood burning oven is the only pizza, is like saying the Model T is the only real car.

We don't balk at strict definitions of bourbon whiskey or maple syrup. It's the same thing. One of the big-picture problems with this country is we play fast-and-loose with bogus foods.

And it's doing us a disservice. All that fake olive oil on the supermarket shelves being sold at "EVOO" prices, for instance. The "10% Kona Coffee blend" which doesn't have ANY Kona coffee in it. (We have access to mass spectrometers here. They can't fool us with their counterfeit beans.) The cheddar isn't cheddar. The Parmesan has never been anywhere NEAR Italy. The champagne is from upstate New York.

We do a [excrement] job describing food accurately. And our quality of life is poorer because of it.

 

[slip]

We don't balk at strict definitions of bourbon whiskey or maple syrup. It's the same thing. One of the big-picture problems with this country is we play fast-and-loose with bogus foods.

And it's doing us a disservice. All that fake olive oil on the supermarket shelves being sold at "EVOO" prices, for instance. The "10% Kona Coffee blend" which doesn't have ANY Kona coffee in it. (We have access to mass spectrometers here. They can't fool us with their counterfeit beans.) The cheddar isn't cheddar. The Parmesan has never been anywhere NEAR Italy. The champagne is from upstate New York.

We do a [excrement] job describing food accurately. And our quality of life is poorer because of it.

That isn't just a problem in this country. I have seen many news stories about food being passed off for something else in other countries too. Italy with cheese and France with wine just to name two. It truly is a world wide problem and it's been going on for years.

Pizza doesn't fit into those groups though. All this talk about pizza is making me hungry.

 

[ScoopKona]

It truly is a world wide problem and it's been going on for years.

When I was a child, nothing was guaranteed to make a bad situation worse more than saying to my parents, "Everyone else was doing it, too."

We're some of the worst offenders when it comes to bogus food. If I cut a piece of glass to look like a diamond and sold it as a diamond, I'd be prosecuted for fraud.

But you can go to your market right now and buy fake Parmesan, fake olive oil, fake cheddar, and (very likely) fake Hawaiian coffee -- even in Hawaii. We turn a blind eye because "cheap" is more important to more people than "good."

I could grind up some Spam, form it into a patty, and then put it on Wonder bread and call it a burger. But that doesn't make it a burger. All I'm asking for is a little consistency.

 

[slip]

When I was a child, nothing was guaranteed to make a bad situation worse more than saying to my parents, "Everyone else was doing it, too."

We're some of the worst offenders when it comes to bogus food. If I cut a piece of glass to look like a diamond and sold it as a diamond, I'd be prosecuted for fraud.

But you can go to your market right now and buy fake Parmesan, fake olive oil, fake cheddar, and (very likely) fake Hawaiian coffee -- even in Hawaii. We turn a blind eye because "cheap" is more important to more people than "good."

I could grind up some Spam, form it into a patty, and then put it on Wonder bread and call it a burger. But that doesn't make it a burger. All I'm asking for is a little consistency.

I wasn't justify the others. My father used the same line, although he was a little more colorful.

I just point out that it is a global problem. The news stories I saw made it sound like a huge problem in other countries too. That's all the info I have on who is worse. But that really doesn't matter anyway, it's a problem.

I don't think it's a problem for Pizza and Burgers though.

 

[ScoopKona]

I don't think it's a problem for Pizza and Burgers though.

I think it is a problem. "Kobe" beef burgers which aren't from Japan. (And "Kobe" hot dogs which aren't even beef.)

For some reason, we settle for buying food that isn't what it says on the label. Hell, the "mozzarella" on most pizzas isn't even CLOSE to mozzarella. We can't even get the cheese right. (And it's the same with cheddar on burgers.)

The US has cuisine to be justifiably proud of -- barbecue, gumbo, lobster rolls, cioppino, Hatch-chile-anything, Tex-Mex. I wish we would stop circling the wagons around bogus food just because it's "ours."

 

[slip]

I think it is a problem. "Kobe" beef burgers which aren't from Japan. (And "Kobe" hot dogs which aren't even beef.)

For some reason, we settle for buying food that isn't what it says on the label. Hell, the "mozzarella" on most pizzas isn't even CLOSE to mozzarella. We can't even get the cheese right. (And it's the same with cheddar on burgers.)

The US has cuisine to be justifiably proud of -- barbecue, gumbo, lobster rolls, cioppino, Hatch-chile-anything, Tex-Mex. I wish we would stop circling the wagons around bogus food just because it's "ours."

I figured you would go there after I post that.

We're a long way from this thread or even just defining pizza. I'll just leave it at this, I'll eat pizza in the USA or anywhere.

 

[Luvtoride]

I like that there is a variety of types of pizza. To say only an Italian thin crust pizza made in a wood burning oven is the only pizza, is like saying the Model T is the only real car.

In the “pizza wars” episode of “Food that Built America” the Carney brothers who founded Pizza Hut were very clear, that what they were bringing to the U.S. Public was “their version” as no one here would know of Real Italian pizza anyway. Pizza Hut started in Kansas! They certainly met their challenge when trying to expand to the Northeast where there were many Italian immigrants who expected a much different product than the Carneys thin crust pizza!


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[amycurl]

What’s interesting to me is that pizza is now considered to be “American” food, while Chinese food is still considered to be “ethnic” food, even though it’s been in the country longer. Just think of how you find it in a typical grocery store.

(And I agree with you, Scoop, that it’s American-ized versions of each. I’ve lived in Italy…)

This is an article about an episode from my favorite podcast, The Sporkful (“where we obsess about food to learn more about people”.) There’s a link to the full episode which talks about it on that page, too.

The Sporkful Podcast Other Peoples Food Part 2

Dan Pashman of The Sporkful podcast is at it again. In yesterday's episode, Pashman asks the questions "How does what we think about different people affect what we think about their food?"

www.mediaite.com

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[ScoopKona]

(And I agree with you, Scoop, that it’s American-ized versions of each. I’ve lived in Italy…)

I have a theory. And people with family trees with branches which reach Italy aren't going to like it.

First, a story:

A family moved in to the house next door to my mother in law. They were basically done moving stuff into the house when my wife and I rolled in to visit mom. So I asked, "Where are you from?"

Italy!

Me: "Ahhh. Tuto bene! Quale provincia?"

Dude looked at me like I had a horn growing out of my head.

Me: "You said you're from Italy."

Dude: We're from New Jersey.

Me: "I see."

There are Americans who claim to be Italian -- and yet don't speak a word of Italian. They don't even get "Capisci?" right. These people tend to think that cooking is a birthright, not a skill. They think what they're doing in the kitchen is Italian -- because that's what was handed down. But this cuisine (a great deal of it is very tasty indeed) comes as a total surprise to Italians. If you search Youtube, there are videos of Italians trying Italian-American food, and commenting. They're brutal. But they're also fair.

 

[DrQ]

There are Americans who claim to be Italian -- and yet don't speak a word of Italian. They don't even get "Capisci?" right. These people tend to think that cooking is a birthright, not a skill. They think what they're doing in the kitchen is Italian -- because that's what was handed down. But this cuisine (a great deal of it is very tasty indeed) comes as a total surprise to Italians. If you search Youtube, there are videos of Italians trying Italian-American food, and commenting. They're brutal. But they're also fair.

When Italian's emigrated here their cuisine had to evolve. The ingredients were different. They could not afford to source authentic ingredients, even if they were available.

This is true for many cultures.

One of the best sources of Italian-American recipes is: "Antoinette Pope School Cookbook, Revised and Enlarged Edition" (Late 1950's and later)

The Pope's were the "Julia Childs" of the time. In the expanded edition, there is a whole section on (midwest)Italian-American recipes. My mom had this cookbook in her kitchen:

CHICAGO’S CHEF

Long before most Chicagoans heard of Julia Child, they were busy learning “fancy cookery” with Antoinette Pope. Her recent death, at 97, caused many to mourn the passing of one of Chica…

www.chicagotribune.com

I recognize the provenance of ethnic cuisine and enjoy it for what it is and recognize that it has just been recently that authentic ingredients can be sourced or properly trained.

There are only a few restaurants in DFW that can make a proper Margherita pizza but I won't rail against the store owner that has it on their menu and is totally clueless on how to make it. I'm not that much of a foodie snob. I don't return my omelet because it is browned on the outside and is not in the "classic French method".

 

[michael49]

Fuddruckers was great...until they weren't. Now they are gone.
My go-to burger place now is 5 Guys...little hamburger and fries.

 

[ScoopKona]

I won't rail against the store owner that has it on their menu and is totally clueless on how to make it.

They don't have YouTube there?

That's the thing. There's no excuse any more. If ingredients cannot be sourced, that's one thing. Doing what you can with what's available is how all the great dishes came into being.

But technique failures are squarely on the restaurateur. Don't know how to make sushi? YouTube it. Don't know how to make an omelette? YouTube it. Don't know how to make a pizza? YouTube it. Doesn't cost anything -- apart from the Internet connection. Every culinary skill on earth is explained, in detail, free.

I ran out of patience for "I don't know how" a very long time ago. They should stop looking at cat pictures and learn how to do their job instead.

 

[DrQ]

Don't know how to make a pizza? YouTube it. Doesn't cost anything -- apart from the Internet connection. Every culinary skill on earth is explained, in detail, free.

I ran out of patience for "I don't know how" a very long time ago. They should stop looking at cat pictures and learn how to do their job instead.

What KIND of pizza???

Neapolitan?

Make Authentic Neapolitan Pizza With This Simple and Delicious Recipe

Learn how to make authentic Neapolitan pizza: a fluffy dough and simple tomato sauce, topped with fresh mozzarella cheese, fresh basil, and olive oil.

www.thespruceeats.com

• Wood fired oven?

New York?

What Is New York-Style Pizza? Learn About This Famous Pizza Style

New York-style pizza has a thin crisp crust. It is usually sold as large slices. Learn about its history and the ingredients used in the famous pizza.

www.thespruceeats.com

• Coal fired ovens?
• New york mineral water?

Chicago Deep Dish?

The deep rooted history of Chicago’s deep-dish pizza

Starting with an ancient culinary tradition carried overseas by Neapolitan immigrants, pizza has evolved into a Windy City icon.

www.bbc.com

Detroit?

A History of Detroit-Style Pizza and Where to Find It

Curious about the history of Detroit-style square pizza? Toni Sinicropi takes us on a historical tour through the pizza of Detroit and where to grab a slice.

www.michigan.org

...

Or will somebody be declared the Pizza God with the ability to decree all other forms "illegal"?

ETA: My favorite place for Margherita pizza is Neapolitan trained (not by YouTube) and has a wood fired oven, but does not make Deep Dish Chicago style pizza.

 

[ScoopKona]

1) What KIND of pizza???

2) New york mineral water?

3) Chicago Deep Dish?

4) Or will somebody be declared the Pizza God with the ability to decree all other forms "illegal"?

Numbers added.

1) They can make whatever they like. But just like how not all grated cheese is Parmesan and not all oil is Extra Virgin Olive Oil, some things are pizzas. And some things are approximations of pizzas. Make what you want. But we need to all agree on the terms used. The big-picture problem with the food landscape in the US is that more than half of what's being sold on supermarket shelves as "Extra Virgin Olive Oil" is either adulterated or outright counterfeit. Decades of ignoring the problem has led to a market which cannot tell the difference.

2) This is a total myth. Any water can be turned into New York water. Just add and remove other compounds until it's the same. Brewers have been doing this for centuries.

3) If they called it "Chicago Deep Dish" and not pizza, that would be great.

4) Hand the pizza to a Napoletano. It's their food. So they get to pass judgement. I want my Parmesan cheese to come from Parma, too. And I want my Champagne to come from Epernay or Reims. I want my bourbon to come from the US and be aged in US oak barrels. I want my maple syrup to be made from 100% maple sap, boiled down. And if the bag says 100% Kona coffee, I want to be sure that it was grown within the seven-mile long belt that is the entirety of the growing region. I am tired of being defrauded when it comes to food.

 

[Mongoose]

A fermented dough, made from 00 flour, stretched so thin it's translucent, very lightly topped, and then cooked in a wood-fired oven at around 475C for a matter of seconds. Nothing else is pizza.

The problem with US "pizza" is the ovens are cooler, which means the dough must be necessarily thicker, and they add more toppings because of the pillowy consistency of the dough.

In Italy, people have stone/brick ovens with the same regularity Americans have backyard grills. They take it very, very seriously. (And although pizza is a fun food, it is also something which must be taken seriously.) I wish we had a similar culture here. The pizza would improve at a stroke.

So I guess Pizza Hut is out , but I’m sure my Red Baron will make the cut as it’s says Napoli on the box when I look in the freezer.

 

[BingoBangoBongo]

My cousin lived by these words. There is no such thing as bad pizza. There is good pizza and better pizza but no bad pizza.

Your cousin has obviously never visited Montreal. Apologies to our friends to the North.

 

[dioxide45]

I don't understand the need for all the food snobbery. If people like what they eat, I don't care what they call it. If it makes you feel better to belittle people for it, that just shows your own shortcomings.

 

[chapjim]

I love Five Guys, but the price is high for a burger that I don't eat with a bun. I love the mushrooms and the veggies I can choose. The fries are the best but too tempting. I cannot go there anymore.

Rick started grilling the Schweid and Sons burger patties that we buy at our local Kroger (King Soopers in the Denver/ Colorado Springs are), which are excellent. https://schweidandsons.com/ Occasionally these patties are on sale, but even if they are not, it's like eating steak for me.

Five Guys started in Arlington, VA in a small strip shopping center at the corner of Columbia Pike and Glebe Road. They got their hamburger buns from the bakery next door. The Five Guys were a father and his four sons. They agreed to take the boys' college money and start a burger joint.