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Biden announces sweeping vaccine mandates affecting millions of workers

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nerodog

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maybe the Cape has some. Hope you find some, check out food trucks also.
Unfortunately I'm at the other end of the state... western Mass. Thank you tho... its just a disappointment. I really thought there'd be more outdoor options.
 

T-Dot-Traveller

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With all due respect, this is a USA issue. You're a Canadian. You don't see us commenting on the decisions that your country has chosen to deal with this, but for reasons I don't understand, you seem to have an obsession with how we are handling the issue. We realize that we've not done well, but in the back of our minds, we know that we will rise. That's how we roll. Nothing will defeat us. I'm just suggesting that you focus on your own country. We've got issues, but they're "family issues". If we need help from Canada, we'll give you a call.
Insulting comment.

Nice touch
On the 20th anniversary of 9/ 11 when Canada allowed USA airlines to land many planes at Canadian airports when they were deemed too high a risk to land in the USA .
 

T-Dot-Traveller

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.......". If we need help from Canada, we'll give you a call.
Guess you didn't get the hint. Reserve your comments and critique for YOUR side of the border. We'll refer our comments to OUR side of the border. Things are rocky for now, but at the end of the day, I have no doubt that we'll defeat this thing and go on to aid the rest of the world.

Why? Because that's just how we do things. We're Americans.
Come from Away - Sept 11th

You called on Sept 11 2001 .......

Canada - took in the USA airplanes that you wouldn't let land in America
 
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DannyTS

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Insulting comment.

Nice touch
On the 20th anniversary of 9/ 11 when Canada allowed USA airlines to land many planes at Canadian airports when they were deemed too high a risk to land in the USA .
For several months I have been told on TUG that natural immunity does not exist and should not be considered, I find it odd that when the chief doctor admits it I do not get a more substantive response.

I think it has to do more with what I write, not the location, since I never saw this argument used when views were aligned. I should add that my thoughts (and frustration sometimes) come from a deeply rooted sympathy and caring since I know that no system is perfect and the alternatives are a lot worse. With that in mind, I am afraid that some do not realize that once you take away the principles that have made the Western civilization prosperous, there is not much left to prop it up and we are the same like everyone else and the impact to the quality of life is just a matter of time.
 
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Troyrissa

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Get a grip. This is all political and media hype. Governments require fire extinguishers in businesses and seat belts in cars. So what! It is about public safety. If an anti-vaxxer shows up for work without testing and make others sick, they are a threat to public health and safety.

The problem is not the government but the anti-vaxxers who couldn't stay home and avoid infecting others.

Bottom line: Anti-vaxxers could not self police themselves so the govt had to step in. Blame the anti-vaxxers. They failed to do what's right to protect others. I am pissed off that my vaccinated son who works in a grocery store was infected by a covidiot who would not quarantine. My son has been called names while handing out masks at the door. He is just a college kid doing his job! It's time to nip this in the bud stat so we can get back to normal.
You do realize that your son could have very well been infected by another fully vaccinated person right? It is well known by now that the vaccine does not prevent transmission of the virus. My son got it at work too. I do agree however that sick people should stay home.
 

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And yet the smallpox vaccine WAS a national thing. Hmmm
The mission to stamp out smallpox (or cowpox as it was largely referred to for centuries prior to the 1950s) was largely a global initiative. Smallpox was the first vaccine ever produced. It was a global initiative largely managed by the WHO and the vaccine was mostly produced and disseminated by the USSR. This was done during a historical time post WWII when the level of cooperation globally and the culture here in the US was much more community and consensus driven and not nearly as focused on individual rights like we are today. While there have always been subsets of folks who are vaccination skeptics - it’s nothing like we are seeing today. Show me one SCOTUS case where the argument is clearly dealing with federal level mandates and I’ll gladly say I’m wrong. I’ve tried to find one, I cannot. I therefore suspect SCOTUS will have to create precedent given what the current administration is attempting to enforce. We do live in interesting times, grab your popcorn it’s going to be fun to watch.


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HitchHiker71

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Guess you didn't get the hint. Reserve your comments and critique for YOUR side of the border. We'll refer our comments to OUR side of the border. Things are rocky for now, but at the end of the day, I have no doubt that we'll defeat this thing and go on to aid the rest of the world. Why? Because that's just how we do things. We're Americans.
Last I checked, Canada is a US ally, and our allies are our friends. @DannyTS please know that there are those of us in America who actually understand the meaning and contributions of US allies and appreciate their contributions to our country and to the collective debate. Feel free to put posters like this on Ignore and continue to share your ideas and thoughts. I for one solidly reject the entire premise of what @cman is saying here.


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nerodog

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The mission to stamp out smallpox (or cowpox as it was largely referred to for centuries prior to the 1950s) was largely a global initiative. Smallpox was the first vaccine ever produced. It was a global initiative largely managed by the WHO and the vaccine was mostly produced and disseminated by the USSR. This was done during a historical time post WWII when the level of cooperation globally and the culture here in the US was much more community and consensus driven and not nearly as focused on individual rights like we are today. While there have always been subsets of folks who are vaccination skeptics - it’s nothing like we are seeing today. Show me one SCOTUS case where the argument is clearly dealing with federal level mandates and I’ll gladly say I’m wrong. I’ve tried to find one, I cannot. I therefore suspect SCOTUS will have to create precedent given what the current administration is attempting to enforce. We do live in interesting times, grab your popcorn it’s going to be fun to watch.


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I just wish these new mandates would include those coming from the Mexican border. I'm reading that everyone is offered a vax yet many refuse and have tested positive.
 

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You do realize that your son could have very well been infected by another fully vaccinated person right? It is well known by now that the vaccine does not prevent transmission of the virus. My son got it at work too. I do agree however that sick people should stay home.
Sorry to hear about your son. While it could have been a slim probability, it's important to understand the statistics behind the infection because the odds tell the story. The majority of vaxxed cannot spread the disease - it is only the minority of breakthrough infections that can spread. So it is highly unlikely that a breakthrough would have come across a breakthrough compared to coming into contact with an unvaxxed so I would still blame the anti-vaxxers for giving it to the breakthrough vaxxed person because the positivity rate is so high in his area (and the vax rates are some of the lowest in the nation.)
 
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Troyrissa

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I would encourage anyone who wishes to learn more about the actual science behind this virus and the vaccines to look up Dr. Christina Parks. She has given testimony before the Michigan legislature. It was quite informative and eye opening.
 

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@Troyrissa. Never heard of her, so I just googled her. It appears that she is not a medical doctor, or a research scientist in a lab - she is a home school science teacher (what???) and the pages are laden with discussions of how she promotes conspiracy theories. She apparently was banned from YouTube for spreading medical misinformation. (Sorry I am just calling it as I see it because I never heard of her). So how does this make her an authority on vaccines? This is like asking the local k-12 science teacher for an opinion on cutting-edge science. (I have nothing against k-12 science teachers but you need the right tool for the job.)

Do I have the right person?

If so, call me skeptical. If you have peer reviewed research Parks has conducted that is published in medical journals re: Covid transmission, I would be interested in seeing them vs. just her opinion as a high school science teacher. (Although she's a Ph.D, her research may have taken place years ago and may unrelated or out of date with current practices - who knows? The topics I researched as a graduate student are far different than current practice.)

FYI...Here is a counterpoint with peer reviewed medical articles:

"When someone feels the need to remind you of their Ph.D. credentials over and over again, this should give you cautious pause. The evidence is what matters."


 
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Troyrissa

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The Michigan legislature seemed to think she was knowledgeable enough to testify before them and present scientific information. I’m not going to argue with you. You can look at her actual testimony and decide for yourself whether you believe what she’s saying based on her education and ongoing research. I would also ask, where is the scientific data everyone else is relying on to so willingly take an experimental drug? I know I’m not a scientist and therefore I don’t pretend to know what I don’t know.
 

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@Troyrissa Michigan legislature? And they couldn't find someone more authoritative than a home-school science teacher to address such an important topic? This makes very skeptical that the powerful Michigan Legislature couldn't find any practicing scientists willing to testify in support of their agenda? My BS meter is going off (and yours should be too.) You can cherry-pick anyone to debate any issue.

I encourage you to read the counterpoints to her testimony in the prior post - it is backed by peer-reviewed scientific data. Where is her peer-reviewed scientific evidence to back her claims?
 
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HitchHiker71

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For several months I have been told on TUG that natural immunity does not exist and should not be considered, I find it odd that when the chief doctor admits it I do not get a more substantive response.
I’ve not been participating in these threads until just recently - but I’m guessing there may have been confusion of the use of the term natural immunity vs acquired immunity.

Technically the term natural, or innate, immunity would refer to inherent immunity to COVID-19 prior to exposure. If we accept the premise that SARS-COV-2 was a novel coronavirus then natural immunity is very unlikely.

Superior acquired, or adaptive, immunity from exposure and natural infection isn’t something anyone should be surprised by. There seems to be recent surprise that acquired immunity from infection is better than vaccination based immunity. This isn’t news. Acquired immunity from natural infection for almost every disease for which we have vaccines is demonstrably better than vaccination based immunity. That’s to be expected. The issue is that the risk of significant disease and/or death from natural infection is greater than the risk of any vaccine side effects. While COVID-19 doesn’t have a high morbidity rate - it actually has a fairly low morbidity rate when compared to most of the diseases for which we vaccinate today - it does have very high transmission rates. The risk with COVID-19 is the high likelihood of transmission - particularly the the newer variants like delta - coupled with slightly higher morbidity rates and noticeably higher hospitalization rates of the newer variants (which recent data on delta reinforces). While the morbidity rates remain fairly low - the high transmission rates (the R naught) still translate into the reality that COVID-19 can kill a lot of people despite the lower morbidity rates when compared to other diseases subject to vaccination protocols.


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Patri

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I'm just suggesting that you focus on your own country. We've got issues, but they're "family issues". If we need help from Canada, we'll give you a call.
You're not the boss of him.
 

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@Troyrissa. Never heard of her, so I just googled her. It appears that she is not a medical doctor, or a research scientist in a lab - she is a home school science teacher (what???) and the pages are laden with discussions of how she promotes conspiracy theories. She apparently was banned from YouTube for spreading medical misinformation. (Sorry I am just calling it as I see it because I never heard of her). So how does this make her an authority on vaccines? This is like asking the local k-12 science teacher for an opinion on cutting-edge science. (I have nothing against k-12 science teachers but you need the right tool for the job.)

Do I have the right person?

If so, call me skeptical. If you have peer reviewed research Parks has conducted that is published in medical journals re: Covid transmission, I would be interested in seeing them vs. just her opinion as a high school science teacher. (Although she's a Ph.D, her research may have taken place years ago and may unrelated or out of date with current practices - who knows? The topics I researched as a graduate student are far different than current practice.)

FYI...Here is a counterpoint with peer reviewed medical articles:

"When someone feels the need to remind you of their Ph.D. credentials over and over again, this should give you cautious pause. The evidence is what matters."


This is why I said before that the scientific dissent has been crushed during this pandemic. The campaign against those that spoke their mind in the scientific community has been consistent, coordinated and vicious. This is very sad, the science is about discovering the truth, not stating it unequivocally, especially with such a fast developing situation where we have new studies every day that nuance, in some cases plainly contradict, what we think we know.

The author makes several false statements some are just the official talking points, and he does not have any qualifications as far as I can tell. Dr Cristina Parks may not be in the top 5 scientists in the world ( however she still has a PhD in molecular biology) but that does not matter, they have continuously thrown mud at the top scientists as well, if they dared to challenge the official narrative.
The one wiping the floors with Dr Cristina Park has a PhD in, you are reading correctly, International Public Relations and his job is, according to his Wikipedia page, educator and activist. I guess in this case the emphasis is on activism.
 

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Sorry to hear about your son. While it could have been a slim probability, it's important to understand the statistics behind the infection because the odds tell the story. The majority of vaxxed cannot spread the disease - it is only the minority of breakthrough infections that can spread. So it is highly unlikely that a breakthrough would have come across a breakthrough compared to coming into contact with an unvaxxed so I would still blame the anti-vaxxers for giving it to the breakthrough vaxxed person because the positivity rate is so high in his area (and the vax rates are some of the lowest in the nation.)
I would like to clarify what we know (or at least what I know) so far.
Vaxxed and unvaxxed can shed the virus almost equally, let's get this out of the way. I can provide studies if you are interested, and Dr Fauci stated it too.
So the idea is how many infected are actually vaccinated vs unvaccinated. The answer is not as simple as may be portrayed in the media. Typically, they will look at large periods of times (example January to July) and come to the conclusion that most infections come from the unvaxxed, we have all seen the headlines. There are problems with making that argument today.

1) Delta seems to have changed the dynamics, the breakthrough infections are much more common. It is more important the risk today, in the current conditions, not sometimes in the past.
2) between May and late July, the CDC testing guidance was different for the vaxxed and the unvaxxes so the unvaxxed was tested predominantly hence an out sized number of cases
3) Even today you can make an argument that most of the asymptomatic cases will only be known if they are unvaxxes, they are those that are required to be tested for a number of activities (job, travel etc)
4) The percentage of vaccinated people has gradually gone up since January. If now the ratio is say 50-50, that was not the case in January, February, March etc. Even if the vaccine did not protect one bit (I am not making that statement) just because of the numbers from the past months, you would still expect more infections from those that were not vaccinated, they were just a lot more numerous all those months.

When I have a bit of time I will come back with the current data to show it is not that unlikely to get the virus from a vaccinated person.
 

CalGalTraveler

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This is why I said before that the scientific dissent has been crushed during this pandemic. The campaign against those that spoke their mind in the scientific community has been consistent, coordinated and vicious. This is very sad, the science is about discovering the truth, not stating it unequivocally, especially with such a fast developing situation where we have new studies every day that nuance, in some cases plainly contradict, what we think we know.

The author makes several false statements some are just the official talking points, and he does not have any qualifications as far as I can tell. Dr Cristina Parks may not be in the top 5 scientists in the world ( however she still has a PhD in molecular biology) but that does not matter, they have continuously thrown mud at the top scientists as well, if they dared to challenge the official narrative.
The one wiping the floors with Dr Cristina Park has a PhD in, you are reading correctly, International Public Relations and his job is, according to his Wikipedia page, educator and activist. I guess in this case the emphasis is on activism.
Yes this article offers opinion just like Christina Park however the big difference is the peer-reviewed published research cited under each point in the article providing evidence that matters.

Christina Park's statements are opinion, and it appears without underlying published scientific evidence to back up her statements.

AFAIK, Christina Parks is not a practicing scientist in a commercial or private lab working on infectious diseases. Therefore her opinion is not first-hand and not authoritative unless you can provide me with peer-reviewed papers she has published on the topic.

I am sure we could find many local k-12 science teachers who earned a Ph.D two decades ago to give an opinion - so what? I have a graduate degree and could give you an opinion too and cry that my "scientific truth was crushed" by the scientific community (aka peer reviewers) because they found it as BS or half-truths. That is what peer-review is for.

Michigan is getting played.
 
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CalGalTraveler

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I would like to clarify what we know (or at least what I know) so far.
Vaxxed and unvaxxed can shed the virus almost equally, let's get this out of the way. I can provide studies if you are interested, and Dr Fauci stated it too.
Let's get this out of the way: This is a half-truth. Yes, when they are INFECTED vaxxed and unvaxxed shed equally. However only a fraction of the vaxxed get breakthrough infections compared to the unvaxxed. Therefore, not equal when it comes to your risk. Hypothetically in a population of 100 vaxed if there is 10% breakthrough then only 10 could shed the virus. Only the breakthrough cases can shed the virus not the 90% who are covid free and protected by the vaccine.

The problem is similar to the marketing adage by John Wannamaker. "Half of the money I spend on advertising spend is wasted, the problem is that I don't know which half." Same applies here: We don't know which vaccinated are breakthroughs so they want everyone to wear masks.


1631400275974.png
 
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DannyTS

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Let's get this out of the way: This is a half-truth. Yes, when they are INFECTED vaxxed and unvaxxed shed equally. However only a fraction of the vaxxed get breakthrough infections compared to the unvaxxed. Therefore, not equal when you look at it this way.. Hypothetically in a population of 100 vaxed if there is 10% breakthrough then only 10 could shed the virus. Only the breakthrough cases can shed the virus not the 90% who are covid free and protected by the vaccine.


View attachment 39838
As I said, I will post more about it. Until then, you if you have the time you can read this article to see that the official numbers are just not that reliable when it comes to breakthrough infections. You seem you have overlooked that the 90/10 split you mentioned is based on the flawed numbers AND logic (not yours, the media), read 1) to 4) in my comment above.

 

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BTW...I agree with your #1 that Delta has changed the game and the breakthrough % has increased. (I just gave you a hypothetical 10%). But it is far from 100%.

Bottom line: There is overwhelming evidence that states that have lower vax rates have higher case rates per 100,000 with overwhelming hospitalizations of unvaxxed. (There was an excellent state comparison chart posted in this forum but I cannot find. Would love it if the person that posted it would repost here.)

To blame the vaxxed for rampant case rates is not supported by the data. If it were true, one would expect to see the states with the highest cases per 100,000 as the highest vaxxed states, and those hospitals in highly vaxxed states would be rationing care That is simply not the case. Therefore if vaxxed are spreading the virus in high vaxxed states, it is passing to people protected by the vaccine and thus the vaccine is doing its job by disabling the virus.

Besides if vaxxed were to blame for spreading the disease - what's the alternative? Shut everything down? That's not feasible.
 
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