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Biden announces sweeping vaccine mandates affecting millions of workers

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T-Dot-Traveller

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like those with "natural immunity" for polio, measles, mumps, rubella and chickenpox. HIV Hepatitis HPV

To attend private or public schools
"All 50 states mandate vaccines that protect against polio, measles, mumps, rubella and chickenpox."
I have natural immunity against measles , mumps, rubella - I had them between approx. 1959- 1963.
So why would I be required to take a vaccine against those 3 viruses - to simply visit a school .
(as per the suggested wording in Covid vaccine mandates in Canada)

I had chickenpox as well - (but should probably get the Shingles vaccine to PROTECT MYSELF.) I was vaccinated against polio.

Since I have not had Covid 19 , I CHOSE to get vaccinated.and received 2 doses of AstraZeneca.

There are many slippery slopes.
The Province o Ontario (where I live) - mandated on Weds Sept 8 that full vaccination would be required to attend funerals and weddings.
On Thurs. Sept 9 - they "reversed course" on this mandate because apparently someone who wasn't stuck in a Covid obsessed SILO suggested that these were
often religious ceremonies - and that that could be a rabbit hole the government might not want to go down.
 

HitchHiker71

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Actually, the Supreme Court has ruled on this:
Actually - they have not ruled on any federal level mandates. If you read the actual case you just referenced - it was Cambridge board of health (a county board of health within the state of MA) vs the plaintiff - a church minister at the time. In other words, as I originally stated - there is no SCOTUS precedent set for our national government mandating vaccination protocols. There is good precedent - as the case you referenced indicates - for state and local governments enforcing public health protocols.


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dougp26364

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I saw your video on this also Doug and the dining room table was also huge with even more seating at the island/bar. Did I understand correctly that this was also part of an even larger four bedroom unit?
I'm not sure history is on the side of what the current administration is attempting to do here. My current understanding is that there is past legal precedence for states (as well as cities/counties) to exercise broad authority for public health reasons. States have broad public health authority especially when SOEs are in effect. So at a non-federal level, states/cities/counties have successfully mandated vaccination protocols in the interests of public health during past pandemics. That said, there is not much of any past legal precedence for any mandates at the federal level - which is likely why the current administration did what they did - attempting to enforce vaccination protocols indirectly via employer mandates through rules written by agencies like OSHA for example. Federal level mandates are likely to be tested in the courts quickly as a result. I suspect at a federal level there's a fairly good chance such mandates will not withstand legal challenges.
up and until the feds withhold funds that keep the states solvent (education and highway to name two). States will have the choice to go it alone or acquiesce to the feds demands. It’s all about choice and hard decisions
the Supreme Court has made several rulings over the years since the first ruling in 1905 (smallpox). It’s not difficult to see how this will go
 

dougp26364

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I have natural immunity against measles , mumps, rubella - I had them between approx. 1959- 1963.
So why would I be required to take a vaccine against those 3 viruses - to simply visit a school .
(as per the suggested wording in Covid vaccine mandates in Canada)

I had chickenpox as well - (but should probably get the Shingles vaccine to PROTECT MYSELF.) I was vaccinated against polio.

Since I have not had Covid 19 , I CHOSE to get vaccinated.and received 2 doses of AstraZeneca.

There are many slippery slopes.
The Province o Ontario (where I live) - mandated on Weds Sept 8 that full vaccination would be required to attend funerals and weddings.
On Thurs. Sept 9 - they "reversed course" on this mandate because apparently someone who wasn't stuck in a Covid obsessed SILO suggested that these were
often religious ceremonies - and that that could be a rabbit hole the government might not want to go down.
there are accurate tiger blood tests to check immunity. Even natural immunity wanes over time. I recently had to take the MMR vaccine again because one of my titers was to low.

there is NO accurate titer for CoVid immunity at this time. So vaccinations it is
 

dougp26364

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Actually - they have not ruled on any federal level mandates. If you read the actual case you just referenced - it was Cambridge board of health (a county board of health within the state of MA) vs the plaintiff - a church minister at the time. In other words, as I originally stated - there is no SCOTUS precedent set for our national government mandating vaccination protocols. There is good precedent - as the case you referenced indicates - for state and local governments enforcing public health protocols.


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And yet the smallpox vaccine WAS a national thing. Hmmm
 

DannyTS

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And yet the smallpox vaccine WAS a national thing. Hmmm
If it was a federal guidance, not (mandate)by and it was supported at the local and state level, it is a very different animal.

"Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws." It is about the authority of the states.
 

dougp26364

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If it was a federal guidance, not (mandate)by and it was supported at the local and state level, it is a very different animal.

"Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws." It is about the authority of the states.
What you say is true, but the federal government can assert enough pressure on the states so as to force the issue.
As an example, the drinking age is 21 largely because of the pressure to withhold federal highway funds. Same could be said about the former highway speed limit of 55 mph.

They can, and very well could, use the power of federal funds being withheld to bring the states in line with the federal government wishes.

These are interesting times and we’re in and watching the courts will be interesting.
 

DannyTS

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What you say is true, but the federal government can assert enough pressure on the states so as to force the issue.
As an example, the drinking age is 21 largely because of the pressure to withhold federal highway funds. Same could be said about the former highway speed limit of 55 mph.

They can, and very well could, use the power of federal funds being withheld to bring the states in line with the federal government wishes.

These are interesting times and we’re in and watching the courts will be interesting.
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@Superchief good points. Unfortunately these women are trying to square a circle - especially since they are in the medical field and may be exposing patients (and themselves!) They either need to a) take a break from their frontline job until this is over b) get tested regularly or c) get vaxxed. Maybe testing regularly (which is in the mandate) is not so bad a choice if they want/need to continue working. There are plenty of doctors and nurses who are needed for telehealth too.
Two of these women are pharmacists and actually work remotely. They understand the benefits and side effects and have concerns regarding long-term side effects of the vaccines. Most drugs and vaccines had more long-term research prior to being approved by the FDA. Several of their friends will quit their jobs rather than risk their future health and ability to have children. Do we need to lose more qualified medical people when there are already significant labor shortages?
 

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Interesting points. Thanks for explaining that. If they are working remotely and the law doesn't have an exemption for remote only tele-workers why don't they just test regularly to meet the requirement if they are concerned? The laws allows for testing if they don't want to vax. It's a hassle but won't last forever. The at-home tests like Abbott Binax are really easy, and only takes 15 minutes for results.
 
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DrQ

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Interesting points. If they are working remotely and the law doesn't have an exemption for remote only tele-workers why don't they just test regularly to meet the requirement if they are concerned? The lawd allows for testing if they don't want to vax. It's a hassle but won't last forever. The at-home tests like Abbott Binax are really easy, and only takes 15 minutes for results.
The problem may be availability of the test.
 

CalGalTraveler

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The problem may be availability of the test.
True as I just tried to buy a test for my son in Idaho at CVS. However check the Abbott site as I recently purchased a pack of 6 Binax test kits in preparation for a European trip and it was received in 2 days. I also would expect that employers (especially medical providers) would make such tests available and may pay for them. My husband used one of the kits after our return from Hawaii so he could return to the office and it was super easy.
 

CalGalTraveler

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Here is a link to the kit, This is the recommended test for returning to the US from International. I now pack 2 kits whenever I travel (even domestically) in case I don't feel well and need to test.

 
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DannyTS

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It's a hassle but won't last forever.
I have been hearing this for the last 18 months. Do we have any idea how long the mandates are going to last?
 

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Pressure is different than mandate. I think about 20 states are fighting this. As I said before, this is divisive and unscientific, especially when it comes to those with natural immunity.
If you read what NYT published today and connect the dots I think the decision has a lot more with wanting to turn the news tide a couple of days before 9/11.
With all due respect, this is a USA issue. You're a Canadian. You don't see us commenting on the decisions that your country has chosen to deal with this, but for reasons I don't understand, you seem to have an obsession with how we are handling the issue. We realize that we've not done well, but in the back of our minds, we know that we will rise. That's how we roll. Nothing will defeat us. I'm just suggesting that you focus on your own country. We've got issues, but they're "family issues". If we need help from Canada, we'll give you a call.
 
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CalGalTraveler

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I have been hearing this for the last 18 months. Do we have any idea how long the mandates are going to last?
Not sure (wouldn't we all like this to end!) but I can say for sure that the childbearing years won't last forever. Plus the vaccine will have a longer track record of safety over time which may allay their concerns.
 

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This is a public health vs personal liberty issue. The courts have routinely sided with public health in these matters but sided with personal liberty when it didn’t affect everyone (has to be a contagious disease like CoVid vs mental illness)

They can’t necessarily hold you down and inject you, but they can restrict your freedoms or fine you for not being vaccinated. So in a way you have a choice, just not a very good choice.
Yes. I had to get MMR vax to get marriage license. There was a choice.
 

PigsDad

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If companies want to require the testing, they should provide the resources to do the tests.
One could also say that if a person chooses not to be vaccinated, they should accept the consequences and be required to pay for their own tests. Why should I, as a vaccinated employee and stock holder, subsidize the cost of testing other employees that choose not to vaccinate? I can see both arguments.

Kurt
 

DannyTS

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With all due respect, this is a USA issue. You're a Canadian. You don't see us commenting on the decisions that your country has chosen to deal with this, but for reasons I don't understand, you seem to have an obsession with how we are handling the issue. We realize that we've not done well, but in the back of our minds, we know that we will rise. That's how we roll. Nothing will defeat us. I'm just suggesting that you focus on your own country. We've got issues, but they're "family issues". If we need help from Canada, we'll give you a call.
I apologize if you feel that way. We have a say: when America sneezes, we catch a cold.
Broadly speaking, the same measures have been executed all over the world with no vigorous public debate, with censuring of all scientific dissent, with zero accountability and many times by using half true numbers that would make a veteran timeshare salesman blush. They are not family issues, unfortunately. I have been critic of the methods more than the people, the countries that have implemented them. If you want to praise or ridicule decisions made in Canada in this context, go ahead, I am not going to be offended.

Edited to add: I deleted the comment you were replying to. At a second reading, It was actually more politics than covid so maybe you were right about that particular comment.
 
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Ken555

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The problem may be availability of the test.
I’m not sure about retail availability, but I do know that wholesale availability of tests from multiple providers is not an issue.


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I’m not sure about retail availability, but I do know that wholesale availability of tests from multiple providers is not an issue.


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There was a stack of them at a Walmart I was in today.
 

DannyTS

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With all due respect, this is a USA issue. You're a Canadian. You don't see us commenting on the decisions that your country has chosen to deal with this, but for reasons I don't understand, you seem to have an obsession with how we are handling the issue. We realize that we've not done well, but in the back of our minds, we know that we will rise. That's how we roll. Nothing will defeat us. I'm just suggesting that you focus on your own country. We've got issues, but they're "family issues". If we need help from Canada, we'll give you a call.
This is just another example of what is going on BOTH sides of the border. Suddenly, the media seem to realize that the Israeli study does exist (there are many others we have discussed here on TUG for months I should add) and that natural immunity is real. Public health officials (and the same here, trust me) seem to be puzzled of what to do with this, like they only had 30 minutes to think about. Also note how dubious the answer (the same here again) they just do not know how long the natural immunity is going to last. Really? I have news, people have been infected for longer than vaccinated, so we know for sure that the natural immunity lasts that much longer, and probably even more, and that is covered in those studies as well.



 
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cman

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This is just another example of what is going on BOTH sides of the border.
Guess you didn't get the hint. Reserve your comments and critique for YOUR side of the border. We'll refer our comments to OUR side of the border. Things are rocky for now, but at the end of the day, I have no doubt that we'll defeat this thing and go on to aid the rest of the world. Why? Because that's just how we do things. We're Americans.
 
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