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Biden announces sweeping vaccine mandates affecting millions of workers

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MrockStar

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@Ralph Sir Edward Simple. The breakthrough people did what they could to protect others by getting vaccinated. The anti-vaxxers didn't do squat, and most importantly (as evidenced by the positivity rate) didn't take precautions to protect others. Besides, only a small percentage get breakthrough infections compared to the unvaxxed. Run the stats - simple math. The reason we have breakthrough infections is because there are so many unvaxxed running around infecting others.

We need to protect our children and get back to normal. Enough is enough. The anti-vaxxers had their chance to self-police and they blew it.
Except for those of us who survived CV-19 early when there where NO vaccines and developed strong natural immunity. There are many of us so get off your judgmental high horse before you fall off.
 

CalGalTraveler

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Except for those of us who survived CV-19 early when there where NO vaccines and developed strong natural immunity. There are many of us so get off your judgmental high horse before you fall off.
How do you know? Have you tested yourself regularly? Have you done a recent antibody test to prove your immunity hasn't waned over time? Most importantly, how would an employer or dining establishment know you were safe without a recent test?

BTW...my comments do not pertain to anti-vaxxers who have taken precautions to protect the safety of others, or those who have medical reasons or other limitations to taking the vax. However, this cohort is small as evidenced by the high positivity rates in low-vaxxed locales compared to the lower positivity rates in high-vaxxed areas.
 
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Ralph Sir Edward

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@Ralph Sir Edward Simple. The breakthrough people did what they could to protect others by getting vaccinated. The anti-vaxxers didn't do squat, and most importantly (as evidenced by the positivity rate) didn't take precautions to protect others. Besides, only a small percentage get breakthrough infections compared to the unvaxxed. Run the stats - simple math. The reason we have breakthrough infections is because there are so many unvaxxed running around infecting others.

We need to protect our children and get back to normal. Enough is enough. The anti-vaxxers had their chance to self-police and they blew it.
Not so simple. Have you looked at the Israeli numbers and research?

Their latest wave was despite the very high vaccination rate. They found out that - 1. The mRNA vaccines fade in about 6 months, and start losing their effectiveness. and 2. They also tested vaccinated transmission, and found that any breakthrough case was just as infective as a non-vaxxed person. And the real kicker was that transmission by vaxxed people was enough to maintain the pandemic.

Scapegoating a group is not the way to solve a problem.
 

MrockStar

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How do you know? Have you tested yourself regularly? Have you done a recent antibody test to prove your immunity hasn't waned over time? Most importantly, how would an employer or dining establishment know you were safe without a recent test?

BTW...my comments do not pertain to anti-vaxxers who have taken precautions to protect the safety of others, or those who have medical reasons or other limitations to taking the vax. However, this cohort is small as evidenced by the high positivity rates in low-vaxxed locales compared to the lower positivity rates in high-vaxxed areas.
Iven had covid twice, so twice the antibodies.
 

bluehende

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Not so simple. Have you looked at the Israeli numbers and research?

Their latest wave was despite the very high vaccination rate. They found out that - 1. The mRNA vaccines fade in about 6 months, and start losing their effectiveness. and 2. They also tested vaccinated transmission, and found that any breakthrough case was just as infective as a non-vaxxed person. And the real kicker was that transmission by vaxxed people was enough to maintain the pandemic.

Scapegoating a group is not the way to solve a problem.
US

41.5 million cases and 674 thousand deaths. From your source. Since we do not have to normalize data anymore.

If you do it still shows the lower vaxxed us has done much much worse. Seems that vaccines work. Especially if you actually look at the data you posted

Highest 7 day average is 30 on deaths

while the us was 1400 with no FL deaths in that total. The real number is much higher.

Further research shows 7 day average is over 1500 currently according to Johns Hopkins
 
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CalGalTraveler

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@Ralph Sir Edward What the Israeli situation proves it that Delta is highly contagious. Their solution is not to walk away from vaccines but to double down on vaccines with a booster. Your argument seems to suggest that vaccines don't matter. But that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

When you look at the statistics there is an exponentially smaller % of breakthrough cases than % of unvaxxed that can spread the disease.

In my son't area that's a 400% increase in risk when you come into contact with an unvaxxed person!
 
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CalGalTraveler

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Iven had covid twice, so twice the antibodies.
Sorry to hear about that. You likely have the antibodies but your situation is rare. Getting it twice seems to suggest that the antibodies waned over time, or that some infections don't rise to the level of immunity?

Maybe this would fit under medical exemption? But how do you suggest proving that simply to employers and dining establishments vs. others that lie about their situation? How would one know if the antibodies levels are high enough to promote immunity?
 
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MrockStar

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Sorry to hear about that. You likely have the antibodies but your situation is rare. Getting it twice seems to suggest that the antibodies waned over time.

Maybe this would fit under medical exemption? How do you suggest proving that simply to employers and dining establishments vs. others that lie about their situation?
I only dine outdoors and rarely dine out, or get takeout. My whole family and close friends have either had covid or are vaccinated or both. I work in my own office/cubical and wear a mask when i interact with coworkers. Others can follow my lead if that's possible for their situation. Thanks CalGalTraveler, we are all in this together.
 

CalGalTraveler

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@MrockStar Sounds like you are doing all the right things. As I stated earlier, my comments are directed at those who act irresponsibly and it doesn't sound like you are in that category.

The irresponsible anti-vaxxers are the ones who are to blame and why the government needed to step in to protect the safety of others. The irresponsible are affecting your freedom as well. I agree that we are all in this together.
 
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bluehende

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@Ralph Sir Edward What the Israeli situation proves it that Delta is highly contagious. Their solution is not to walk away from vaccines but to double down on vaccines with a booster. Your argument seems to suggest that vaccines don't matter. But that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

When you look at the statistics there is an exponentially smaller % of breakthrough cases than % of unvaxxed that can spread the disease.

If you have a population of 100 vaxxed and a positivity rate of 41% then if 10% can breakthrough (10% * 41% = 4 people). So you only have a 4% chance of getting infected if you come into contact with a vaxxed person.

If you have a population of 100 unvaxxed you have a 41% positivity rate = 41% or 41 people out of 100 can give it to you. That means that almost every other unvaxxed person you come in contact with could infect you.

That's a 400% increase in risk when you come into contact with an unvaxxed person!
Here are real numbers with the Israeli situation with some very good explanations of the data after it is normalized for age.




1631289784196.png
 

CanuckTravlr

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Not so simple. Have you looked at the Israeli numbers and research?

Their latest wave was despite the very high vaccination rate. They found out that - 1. The mRNA vaccines fade in about 6 months, and start losing their effectiveness. and 2. They also tested vaccinated transmission, and found that any breakthrough case was just as infective as a non-vaxxed person. And the real kicker was that transmission by vaxxed people was enough to maintain the pandemic.

Scapegoating a group is not the way to solve a problem.
With all due respect, can we please stop quoting Israeli numbers and ignoring the obvious? Israel is not all that relevant to what is going on in North America nor specifically the USA. Nor is Israel that "highly" vaccinated; they are just more vaccinated than the USA, but that is unfortunately a relatively low bar to exceed these days.

All this just deflects IMO away from the primary issue in the USA; not enough people are getting vaccinated, for all the wrong reasons. Full stop! It is not helped by the politicization of the issue in the US, nor by all the people throwing up every excuse from here to Sunday as to why they shouldn't have to be vaccinated or vaccination doesn't make a difference. The numbers don't lie.

Israel is currently #32 in the world with 63% of the total population fully-vaccinated. The USA is #61 with 53%. If you want to try another North American comparison, Canada is #23 with 68%.

Coronavirus vaccines in Canada: How many people have received shots? | CTV News

While Israel got off to a quick start, reportedly because they paid extra to get to the front-of-the-line in acquiring vaccines early, they now seem to be suffering some of the same issues as the USA in vaccine hesitancy. While their per-capita numbers are better than the USA, they are worse than Canada. Being vaccinated and following safety protocols can make a difference. The numbers are right there!

You can also see it from the same source you quoted (Worldometer), by opening up the full interactive world chart. Both Israel and the USA have 3 times the per capita cases compared to Canada, but the USA also has 3 times the per capita death rate of both Israel and Canada. For per capita cases, the USA is #15 in the world, Israel is #16, and Canada is #104. For per capita deaths, the USA is #21, Israel is #78, and Canada is #83.

COVID Live Update: 224,228,918 Cases and 4,624,110 Deaths from the Coronavirus - Worldometer (worldometers.info)

Here is another interactive chart of cases over time for all three countries. Israel hasn't really done all that well, IMO. So let's focus on what needs to be done in the US and stop worrying about what Israel, or that other "prime" example, Sweden, are doing! First, get vaccinated if possible. Second, until the pandemic is over or we have finally acquired some level of herd immunity, wear a mask when near others (and especially indoors), particularly when you can't exercise physical distancing. Finally, stop acting as if the pandemic is over. These things aren't fun, but they do work!

COVID-19 curves: Compare Canada and other key nations | CTV News
 
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Ralph Sir Edward

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The numbers given are "apples and oranges". I will go into boring detail.

Column #1 is raw numbers - Vaxxed vs. non Vaxxed. (apples)

Column #2 is NOT raw numbers. Is it "Current Severe cases PER 100,000) (oranges).

You can't multiply Column #1 with Column #2 - they are different measurement types. (Think of measuring tons with gallons. They don't match.)

So I don't know if these numbers were ever being quoted right. But if they are, here is what they mean.

Take the number in column #1 , and divide it by 100,000. This gives you the number of 100,000 cases to multiply by the number in column #2. That should give you the total number of cases for each type. Cross check that number with the actual case count. They should roughly match (rounding errors, you know.)

Cases per 100,000 means just that. For every 100,000 people in that group, there are "x" number of cases. it's a fair way to do comparisons, when one group is much larger than another group.

Below 50 years old, there is a great benefit. Above 50 years old, little benefit. (271 vs. 258). Now I say great benefit, but the older group was vaxxed earlier that the younger group. Vacine fade may be accounting for the difference in numbers (not defined in the numbers).
 

DannyTS

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Here are real numbers with the Israeli situation with some very good explanations of the data after it is normalized for age.




View attachment 39793
There might be an error on the blog you quoted which presents data I do not see on the Israeli source website, it only makes reference to those over 60 and not 50. Also the Israeli website the data is already normalized for 100,000 people, so the author does not need to put the % of population vaccinated over 60 and under 60 (again not 50), it is a bit misleading IMO.


There are some nice graphs there, according to them for those over 60 the vaccine does have a strong protection against severe illness, about 75% not 90% as your blogger claims. However, it seems that not against death, the two lines (vaxxed and unvaxxed) are relatively close and a lot closer than the month before. The booster seems to make a big difference though. The campaign only started in August so we will have to see how it fares in the next few months, if the immunity will last again for 6 months or not.
When it comes to active cases, it seems that over the age of 70 the vaxx is only efficient about 20%. Another interesting aspect, almost 50 % of those vaccinated have received the booster already but the daily number of cases has not gone down significantly.
 

Ralph Sir Edward

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The numbers given are "apples and oranges". I will go into boring detail.

Column #1 is raw numbers - Vaxxed vs. non Vaxxed. (apples)

Column #2 is NOT raw numbers. Is it "Current Severe cases PER 100,000) (oranges).

You can't multiply Column #1 with Column #2 - they are different measurement types. (Think of measuring tons with gallons. They don't match.)

So I don't know if these numbers were ever being quoted right. But if they are, here is what they mean.

Take the number in column #1 , and divide it by 100,000. This gives you the number of 100,000 cases to multiply by the number in column #2. That should give you the total number of cases for each type. Cross check that number with the actual case count. They should roughly match (rounding errors, you know.)

Cases per 100,000 means just that. For every 100,000 people in that group, there are "x" number of cases. it's a fair way to do comparisons, when one group is much larger than another group.

Below 50 years old, there is a great benefit. Above 50 years old, little benefit. (271 vs. 258). Now I say great benefit, but the older group was vaxxed earlier that the younger group. Vacine fade may be accounting for the difference in numbers (not defined in the numbers).
Error on my part, the chart form was confusing me. Thenshould have ahd a separate column for cases and cases per 100,000. Stacking the way they did is confusing.
 

CalGalTraveler

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I'd rather there be a forcible mandate to not grow very old and very fat. That would fix this virus thingy. I just checked and it seems that very old people and very fat people are still at 85+% of the deaths.
How do you explain that to the parents of a normally healthy baby or grade school child who is in an ICU or died because of Covid?

I find it difficult to talk about a dictate without calling out the dictator. But I'll do as I'm told (see what I did there).
...
Be nice.
How is protecting children and the immunocompromised through a mandate not nice? Wouldn't have a mandate if anti-vaxxers acted responsibly.

There should probably be two categories:

1) responsible anti-vaxxers
2) irresponsible anti-vaxxers

#2 has ruined it for everyone. Including #1 by giving them a bad name by spreading the virus and forcing the government to take action affecting everyone's freedom and safety.
 
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DeniseM

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(CalGal - This just happens to follows your post, it is not directed at you in any way.)

Children - Let's review the instructions: If you cannot discuss this topic without getting political, I will simply close the thread.
 

easyrider

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I asked an intelligent person I know who is active in many charities why they are not vaccinated. I was told to just read Revelation 18:23. I finally asked why does this matter. It does matter to those that take this verse literally I guess.

This is the verse.

Revelation 18:23, KJV: "And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."

The explanation is that the word ‘sorceries’ in Greek is ‘pharmakeia’ which describes medication from a pharmacist. "By thy sorceries were all nations deceived" means that in the end times the world is deceived by the people holding power through pharmaceutical means.

This is just part of the why this group wants a religious exemption from the covid vaccine. I did bring up that other Christian religions are in favor of the vaccine and that is an entirely different story that I didn't feel like participating in.

Anyway, I get it . Some people have religious convictions that they are not willing to compromise. To me, there are many things that need compromise to move forward. I wonder how many will quit their jobs because of the mandate.

Bill
 

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With all due respect, can we please stop quoting Israeli numbers and ignoring the obvious? Israel is not all that relevant to what is going on in North America nor specifically the USA. Nor is Israel that "highly" vaccinated; they are just more vaccinated than the USA, but that is unfortunately a relatively low bar to exceed these days.

All this just deflects IMO away from the primary issue in the USA; not enough people are getting vaccinated, for all the wrong reasons. Full stop! It is not helped by the politicization of the issue in the US, nor by all the people throwing up every excuse from here to Sunday as to why they shouldn't have to be vaccinated or vaccination doesn't make a difference. The numbers don't lie.

Israel is currently #32 in the world with 63% of the total population fully-vaccinated. The USA is #61 with 53%. If you want to try another North American comparison, Canada's is #23 with 68%.

Coronavirus vaccines in Canada: How many people have received shots? | CTV News



While Israel got off to a quick start, reportedly because they paid extra to get to the front-of-the-line in acquiring vaccines early, they now seem to be suffering some of the same issues as the USA in vaccine hesitancy. While their per-capita numbers are better than the USA, they are worse than Canada. Being vaccinated and following safety protocols can make a difference. The numbers are right there!

You can also see it from the same source you quoted (Worldometer), by opening up the full interactive world chart. Both Israel and the USA have 3 times the per capita cases compared to Canada, but the USA also has 3 times the per capita death rate of both Israel and Canada. For per capita cases, the USA is #15 in the world, Israel is #16, and Canada is #104. For per capita deaths, the USA is #21, Israel is #78, and Canada is #83.

COVID Live Update: 224,228,918 Cases and 4,624,110 Deaths from the Coronavirus - Worldometer (worldometers.info)

Here is another interactive chart of cases over time for all three countries. Israel hasn't really done all that well, IMO. So let's focus on what needs to be done in the US and stop worrying about what Israel, or that other "prime" example, Sweden, are doing! First, get vaccinated if possible. Second, until the pandemic is over or we have finally acquired some level of herd immunity, wear a mask when near others (and especially indoors), particularly when you can't exercise physical distancing. Finally, stop acting as if the pandemic is over. These things aren't fun, but they do work!

COVID-19 curves: Compare Canada and other key nations | CTV News
Israel is very relevant because the number of breakthrough cases, hospitalizations and deaths started to go up recently, showing that the vaxx immunity was fading. Most of their population was immunized before both US and Canada. Canada will not provide an early warning for the US since we were 2-3 months slow to start, the procurement was terrible at the beginning.

Also, several virologists have said that, like the flu, the 4th wave started in the South (very hot and people spend more time socializing inside) and it will move North. We do not know yet whether Canada will be spared or not.
 

dsmrp

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Going back to the original post, there was an article recently in the Honolulu Advertiser, about a Honolulu police officer who given the choice of getting vaccine and keeping his job, chose against the vaccine. The kicker is that he was one year away from retirement, and will lose his retirement pension due to losing job. I think the officer had non-religious reasons for not getting the vaccine.

I wouldn't have made same choice. How many of you would have chosen as the officer?
 

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How do you explain that to the parents of a normally healthy baby or grade school child who is in an ICU or died because of Covid?



How is protecting children and the immunocompromised through a mandate not nice? Wouldn't have a mandate if anti-vaxxers acted responsibly.

There should probably be two categories:

1) responsible anti-vaxxers
2) irresponsible anti-vaxxers

#2 has ruined it for everyone. Including #1 by giving them a bad name by spreading the virus and forcing the government to take action affecting everyone's freedom and safety.
Have you looked at the number of kids that died from the flu vs Covid? Have you seen a risk benefit/ analysis for vaccinating a 12 YO healthy boy? Neither have I. If I am not mistaken, for those under 15, the vaccines are still not fully approved in the States. Yes, the kids at risk should be vaccinated (if their doctor recommends it) but mandating it to everyone is a completely different story.

"The UK's vaccine advisory body has decided not to recommend vaccines for healthy 12-15-year-olds, but it has advised that vaccines should be offered to thousands more children with particular health problems."
 

Luanne

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Show me Your Papers NOW !
Yes please. Show me your driver's license. Show me your passport. Show me your id to be able to drink. Show me your vaccination records to attend public school. Show me your vaccination records in order to travel to certain countries. If you don't want to show me your papers be prepared to sit at home.
 

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Iven had covid twice, so twice the antibodies.
So I guess the first time didn't give you those antibodies you needed to keep you from getting it a second time. Are you trying for a third?
 

Sandy VDH

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Makes me wonder if Patrick Henry could ever have predicted a Covid pandemic happening when he said "Give me Liberty or give me death." It certainly applies.
 
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