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Average SPG Amex Annual Spend

DeniseM

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Unlike in the US (maybe), many merchants do not take Amex. For example, only maybe 1 or 2 grocery chains take Amex.
A lot of restaurants also do not take Amex.
The merchant penetration is quite low....

In our case, whatever we can charge with Amex, is ALL that we can charge with Amex.

Given that, it would be pretty difficult to gather SPG points than just by Amex alone.

In your case, it might make more sense to use an airline credit card, then. Many of them offer substantial sign-up bonuses, and you can churn them for new bonuses every few years.
 
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One of the possible points of this thread is that, there is always the SOptions vs conversion to SPoints.

I would reckon, even on the higher spend (typical/normal) side - an annual Amex spend that would be maybe 120K SPG points.

That already represent 10,000 in monthly spend on "regular things". That is quite a high spending amount already, for a family.

So in theory, getting 200K SPoints is quite difficult and "expensive".

That is, you can probably get the first 100K "cheaply" just from regular spends. Which probably amounts to about 2 cents in terms of cost.

Your marginal cost, at the higher point levels, should be much higher.
So either your marginal cost for more SPGpoints is 3.5 cents (which you purchase) or the 2.625 cents which you purchase at a discount.
 
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So if you were to make a typical SPG Point Cost Matrix, maybe it will look something like this:

0 - 100,000 - Cost = 2 cents - Via SPG Amex - Regular/everyday spending

100,001 to 140,000 = 2.625 cent (discounted from 3.5 cents) - Via Direct Purchase

(Can be up to 180,000, if you have enough 4 adults in your family) + 20,000 per adult in the same address.

The question:
After you reach the threshhold where you can reasonably buy the SPG Points (eg. at 140,000 annually, for 2 adult households)..

Then what is the cost of the SPG Points? It is much more than 2.625 cents or 3.5 cents.

Because there is no reasonable way, that you can acquire more SPG Points.

UNLESS..... you convert STAROPTIONS.
 

DeniseM

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0 - 100,000 - Cost = 2 cents - Via SPG Amex - Regular/everyday spending

Why do these cost 2¢ per point?
 
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Why do these cost 2¢ per point?

Generally, max credit card rewards cost 2%, or 2 cents.

That is, I can switch to another CC that would give 2% on everything you spend. That is actual dollars you can spend on travel.

However, I choose the Amex SPG, because I value the points at much more than 2 cents.
 

Ty1on

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So if you were to make a typical SPG Point Cost Matrix, maybe it will look something like this:

0 - 100,000 - Cost = 2 cents - Via SPG Amex - Regular/everyday spending

100,001 to 140,000 = 2.625 cent (discounted from 3.5 cents) - Via Direct Purchase

(Can be up to 180,000, if you have enough 4 adults in your family) + 20,000 per adult in the same address.

The question:
After you reach the threshhold where you can reasonably buy the SPG Points (eg. at 140,000 annually, for 2 adult households)..

Then what is the cost of the SPG Points? It is much more than 2.625 cents or 3.5 cents.

Because there is no reasonable way, that you can acquire more SPG Points.

UNLESS..... you convert STAROPTIONS.

There, I'm dizzy again.
 

DeniseM

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You math guys are too sophisticated for me! ;)

By combining Starpoints with Airline credit card offers, we feel like we are getting good value. I prefer to secure accommodations other ways. YMMV
 

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You math guys are too sophisticated for me! ;)

By combining Starpoints with Airline credit card offers, we feel like we are getting good value. I prefer to secure accommodations other ways. YMMV

especially the fuzzy math experts...

one aspect of SP value is how many one already has and the ability to use (SP are more valuable to those who have few, versus those with many) - and the ability to use cash for hotel and flights (paying less cash for a hotel when SPs cost is more than cash)

I am sticking to a SP value of 2.25c/SP - works for me (and many others) YMMV

do not hold onto SPs as they devalue over time...
 
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especially the fuzzy math experts...

one aspect of SP value is how many one already has and the ability to use (SP are more valuable to those who have few, versus those with many) - and the ability to use cash for hotel and flights (paying less cash for a hotel when SPs cost is more than cash)

I am sticking to a SP value of 2.25c/SP - works for me (and many others) YMMV

do not hold onto SPs as they devalue over time...

DavidnRobin,
To clarify:

We are talking about the COST of the SPoints. By regular spends, the cost is about 2 cents per SPoint, since you can get 2% Cash with any other credit card.

The marginal COST of the next 40 to 80K SPoints is probably higher, unless you spend a TON on your Amex SPG, and/or actual hotel stays, there is no other way to earn a lot of SPoints.

Finally, if you still want to go over that next threshold level of say getting over 150 to 200K SPoints (annually), then the possible logical choice to get more SPoints is, in my opinion, getting it from conversions of SOptions.

Unless there are other ways to earn SPoints..
 
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especially the fuzzy math experts...

one aspect of SP value is how many one already has and the ability to use (SP are more valuable to those who have few, versus those with many) - and the ability to use cash for hotel and flights (paying less cash for a hotel when SPs cost is more than cash)

I am sticking to a SP value of 2.25c/SP - works for me (and many others) YMMV

do not hold onto SPs as they devalue over time...

If you VALUE the SPoints at 2.25 cents, then by definition (if this analysis is correct), you would only want to acquire SPoints by Amex CC or by actual HOTEL spends.

Since there is no other way (I think??), for you to acquire SPoints at less than 2.25 cents.

Again, we are talking about an annual accumulation of SPoints.
Since as many know, they would devalue, if you hoard them.
 

VacationForever

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By combining Starpoints with Airline credit card offers, we feel like we are getting good value. I prefer to secure accommodations other ways. YMMV

My issue with Airline credit card is that I do not know which airline I am most likely to fly on for a future trip. We put all our spending on SPG and Marriott credit cards. We also convert some of the timeshares to SPG and Marriott points. We usually have around half a million points on each card before spending them down. Currently we are saving our Marriott points to convert to the travel packages and get business class seats to Europe. Sometimes I think we are not very smart to save them as airline point deflation is worse than hotel point deflation. It looks like our Europe travel is going to get pushed out again. We are always at a dilemma to spend on "little" travel vs. save for the "big" travel.
 

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If you VALUE the SPoints at 2.25 cents, then by definition (if this analysis is correct), you would only want to acquire SPoints by Amex CC or by actual HOTEL spends.

Since there is no other way (I think??), for you to acquire SPoints at less than 2.25 cents.

Again, we are talking about an annual accumulation of SPoints.
Since as many know, they would devalue, if you hoard them.

I never said I would buy them at 2.25 c/SP
I said that is what I value them at (e.g. when using fuzzy math)

My purchase price would depend on my needs (as stated previously - amount/ability to vacation) - right now I am trying to reduce my level of SPs.

Were you asking about annual accumulation rate (w/o spend) regardless of source? For us: ~80K w/o conversion of SOs or buying (have never done either - and wouldn't unless forced). Mainly accumulate via SPG AMEX, and bits here and there. In 2007, we got ~225K SP (mostly incentive) for buying WPORV EOYo from SVO - but we used them in 2009 for a 16-day London/AMS/Paris trip - followed by 2 weeks at WKORV, and 2 weeks WPORV using HomeResort/SVN

I have just converted a bunch (~80K) of SPs to AA FF, and picked up flights to WSJ next year. what is the cash value of that flight? depends... sometimes it is just better to use SPs anyway if you have plenty available.

one size does not fit all - to put a specific value on SPs (or SOs, etc) is inherently flawed by extrinsic factors (e.g. ability to travel...) thus, fuzzy math cannot be avoided
 
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YYJMSP

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In Canada, very few merchants take Amex though.....

You have to decide if it's worth going out of your way to patronize merchants who accept AMEX vs those that don't.

Within reason, we will choose a merchant based on the payment method they collect; however, as I said before, most points come out to around 2% of what you paid, so bottom line is collect points for every dollar you spend...
 
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one size does not fit all - to put a specific value on SPs (or SOs, etc) is inherently flawed by extrinsic factors (e.g. ability to travel...) thus, fuzzy math cannot be avoided

David,
I realize your concept of fuzzy math.

To Clarify:
Your definition of fuzzy math, relies on the concept of people valuing their points / options / airline miles, etc.

I agree with that. Those are all subjective values, and can change from person to person, from situation to situation.

However, the COST of the SPoints, is not a subjective value. Therefore, it is not subject to your definition of "fuzzy math".

Would you agree?
 
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To continue..

COST = Objective

If a person purchases SPoints at 3.5 cents x 20,000. Then there cost is $700.

There is no fuzzy math, since the cash outlay is $700.

My point is that:

SPoints - 1 to 100,000 - most households can probably spend up to this on a credit card, if they totally use their Amex to the full.

To earn additional SPoints, after that, I am theorizing that a household either needs to:
a. Purchase SPoints directly from SPG
b. Spend additional "money" to stay at SPG hotels

In (a), according to some posts, then the maximum is 20,000 per person.
For a household, that generally means 2 x 20K, for a couple.

After this, I am asking / commenting:
What other ways can you earn SPG Points?

My answer is to convert SOptions. I would like to confirm if this is correct OR is there any other way to earn more SPoints in a given year?
 

LisaRex

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IMO, your best bet is to sign up with FlyerTalk.com and target credit cards that offer great sign-on bonuses. That's the quickest and easiest way to accumulate points. It won't be nearly as easy for you as it is for US residents, but this is definitely the route to go if you're not routinely spending tens of thousands of dollars on credit cards. As you've figured out, for average spenders, even the best travel card requires years of spending to reach a level where you can earn a free vacation for a couple, let alone a family. And in the meantime, you'll have paid hundreds of dollars in annual fees, which greatly offset the perks.

Of course, there are other ways to maximize your travel budget, and the best ways are to travel in low season, rent from timeshare owners and VRBO owners (most especially on short notice), and booking with travel consolidators who can bundle flights, lodging and rental cars.

I will warn you that if you have your heart set on traveling in first class on an economy class budget, you are in for a rude awakening. The people who earn the best return on their dollar are those who routinely throw hundreds of thousands of dollars onto a credit card because they're either very wealthy or they have the ability to funnel their business expenses through their credit cards, OR those who fly on an expense report. For average Joes, over the course of a few years, you may be lucky to earn a free flight or a couple nights in a hotel or villa. But I think that you're learning, slowly but surely, that nothing comes for free.
 

DavidnRobin

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the cost (0.35c/SP) is an intrinsic value not an extrinsic one - the fuzzy math comes later...

$700 for 20K SPs...?
20K SPs will get you 2 nights at a Cat4 SPG hotel - therefore $350/nite. problem is that many Cat4 hotels (US) can be had for $150/nite.
that is where the fuzzy math come in...

Conversion of SOs (for the most part) - especially at current offerings - is a terrible conversion to SPs (not considering the purchase cost upfront - or the ever increasing MFs and the continuous SP devaluation). It seems that you have been trying to convince yourself (and others?) that this is not the case.

if your only concern is $/SP and how to gather more - then buy an expensive from SVO (gives the most SO-SP conversion) with high MFs - get some SP incentives - and then buy those 100K SP groupings that they offer - and then convert those SOs to SPs.
such a deal...
 

LisaRex

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My answer is to convert SOptions. I would like to confirm if this is correct OR is there any other way to earn more SPoints in a given year?

Other than traveling and staying in Starwood hotels? Nope.

Just remember that you'll be buying into the Vistana Vacation Ownership system, and not Starwood Vacation Ownership. The affiliation between Vistana and Starwood will *probably* continue, but it's still a risk given that Starwood has publicly put itself up for sale to the highest bidder. The new management may or may not want to continue that relationship.
 
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I never said I would buy them at 2.25 c/SP
I said that is what I value them at (e.g. when using fuzzy math)

My purchase price would depend on my needs (as stated previously - amount/ability to vacation) - right now I am trying to reduce my level of SPs.

Were you asking about annual accumulation rate (w/o spend) regardless of source? For us: ~80K w/o conversion of SOs or buying (have never done either - and wouldn't unless forced). Mainly accumulate via SPG AMEX, and bits here and there. In 2007, we got ~225K SP (mostly incentive) for buying WPORV EOYo from SVO - but we used them in 2009 for a 16-day London/AMS/Paris trip - followed by 2 weeks at WKORV, and 2 weeks WPORV using HomeResort/SVN

I have just converted a bunch (~80K) of SPs to AA FF, and picked up flights to WSJ next year. what is the cash value of that flight? depends... sometimes it is just better to use SPs anyway if you have plenty available.

one size does not fit all - to put a specific value on SPs (or SOs, etc) is inherently flawed by extrinsic factors (e.g. ability to travel...) thus, fuzzy math cannot be avoided

David, I agree with you. Ultimately some of the posts I am making is trying to objectively write down the numbers and an explanation of methodology for the TUG community.

I am asking for the opinion of the users, to see if the math and the methodology is correct or correct enough.

In this example, the calculation of the COST of the SPoints is pretty accurate, in my opinion.

The fuzzy math, and the valuation per person, will be subject to the interpretation of each individual.

My question still:
Is there something in the calculation and methodology that you think is incorrect?
 

Henry M.

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The value of all kinds of points is a all Up in the Air. Even the cost can vary depending on how savvy you are. Some people have even figured out how to get points on credit cards without actually spending money, though it is no clear whether that is fully legal.
 
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To continue..

COST = Objective

If a person purchases SPoints at 3.5 cents x 20,000. Then there cost is $700.

There is no fuzzy math, since the cash outlay is $700.

My point is that:

SPoints - 1 to 100,000 - most households can probably spend up to this on a credit card, if they totally use their Amex to the full.

To earn additional SPoints, after that, I am theorizing that a household either needs to:
a. Purchase SPoints directly from SPG
b. Spend additional "money" to stay at SPG hotels

In (a), according to some posts, then the maximum is 20,000 per person.
For a household, that generally means 2 x 20K, for a couple.

After this, I am asking / commenting:
What other ways can you earn SPG Points?

My answer is to convert SOptions. I would like to confirm if this is correct OR is there any other way to earn more SPoints in a given year?

TUG Community - does anybody see anything wrong with the logic and methodology of this?
 

Ken555

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Ultimately some of the posts I am making is trying to objectively write down the numbers and an explanation of methodology for the TUG community.


I don't see the need for this, and not sure why you do. We've discussed this topic for many years on TUG and while there are changes over time in general it's fairly understood that any point system, including airline miles, are subject to devaluation and the cost of acquisition is highly dependent on individual circumstances.


Sent from my iPad
 

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SPoints - 1 to 100,000 - most households can probably spend up to this on a credit card, if they totally use their Amex to the full.

Where I come from (and it is a wealthy U.S. suburban area), very few households could spend $100,000 on a credit card in a year. Not anywhere even close to that.
 

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I took this as "how much do I need to spend on credit cards to get enough points for my vacation plans to stay free" (in a very roundabout way)

I think the simplest estimate is to assume you'll get 2% back, in some fashion, of whatever you spend.

Then price out your accommodations and/or airfare. And multiply by 50 to see how much you have to spend to get enough points of whatever kind.

So, $5K vacation means spend $250K to get the points.

You may be able to do it for less with bonuses, promotions, etch, but that gives you a ballpark to work from...

I find it funny when people think just spending $1K/mo on their credit cards will turn in to a free family trip to Hawaii every year. Generally, that just doesn't happen. For that, you get the deluxe toaster.
 
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