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At Oceana Palms: what we've learned

tiel

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We are currently at Oceana Palms, enjoying a trade from the bulk deposit made earlier this year. We had the best luck ever in villa assignment: we got the penthouse OF unit! Earlier in the week, we had strong winds, both on the beach and on our balcony, but now it is just breezy and very pleasant indeed. While on the balcony during the windy period, my sunglasses fell off the table, onto the tile deck, and out into the great unknown. For all I know they landed at Ocean Pointe or in Miami. Lesson learned!

We went to a presentation today, probably our last, ever. For the most part, we heard the same old stuff others have reported; no surprise there. But a couple of things surfaced during the discussions that were “new to us”…they may have been discussed here on the boards, but we missed them. One thing concerned the redemption of weeks for MRPs: when that occurs (and we were told on average 30% of weeks are redeemed for MRPs annually), the weeks go into the trust inventory bucket, not the exchange pool. We were also told that weeks turned over to Marriott for rental go into the trust inventory bucket. Neither of these points seemed right to us, but we’ve got it wrong before.

When we had a minor disagreement with the sales rep about the ability to combine trust and legacy points to make a single reservation, the sales manager was brought in. He said for weeks owners like us, the purchase of a minimum number of trust points would give us an advantage of sorts, once a year, in making a prime-time (i.e., high demand) trust reservation (like President’s week or July 4th). I’m not sure how well I can recount what we were told, but I’ll try by providing a generic example: say we own 2k trust points and have 3500 “legacy” points available. We want to make a trust inventory reservation costing 2700 points, with the nightly rates as follows: Fr/Sa 600 pts each, M-F 300 pts each. We were told they would make the reservation (assuming availability) taking the 2k trust points first, then 700 of our legacy points. We would NOT be able to use X number of legacy points first, then use trust points for the remainder. The manager further advised this approach should be used ONLY on the really hard to get reservations. He also showed us where this was included in the public offering documentation (???, I’m not sure what it was called).

Our take on this, when all was said and done, was that legacy week owners who purchase trust points have direct access to trust inventory beyond the actual point value of their trust ownership on a limited basis…they can use their legacy points to supplement their trust points to directly access purely trust inventory once a year. Did we just miss this in all the earlier TUG discussions?

Now that I think about this, we would never know where the inventory is pulled from, so I'm not sure this is anything but theoretical. There is no accountability.

Anyway, we did not buy, feeling we can achieve what we want with the weeks we have, without spending another $20K plus. We bought where we wanted to go, so even if II dries up at some point (which is what we were told would happen), we will be content to go to our home resorts. Our sales rep was obviously displeased with our decision (remarking that we must not understand what we’d been told or we’d be buying, i.e., what was wrong with us?), and was surprisingly irritated when we knew what the cost would be for 2k points and associated MFs, without outlining them for us. Oh well.
 

714

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Ocean Palms Presentation

We are at Oceana Palms this week also and took a Presentation early this morning.
We learned basically exactly what you did from our sales rep. and left without purchasing either, content to continue with our enrolled Destination
Points status. We took our 20,000 MRP's and headed to the pool.
It was beautiful here today and the resort is wonderful, having a great time.
R & J
 

dougp26364

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Hmmmm, I was under the impression that weeks exchanged for MRP went into the Marriott pool for rental from their website. I don't believe that MRP exchanges go into either the trust or legacy pool. Marriott is giving up MRP's and they'll need to get some rental income to cover that cost. Marriott isn't in the business of charity and it seems to me giving those weeks back to MVC for exchange would be charity IMHO.
 

dioxide45

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He also showed us where this was included in the public offering documentation (???, I’m not sure what it was called).

Not sure why the trust public offering statement would include anything about legacy points. The POS would only mention what is pertinent to the trust and trust points. Do you remember what section or page it was on? I have an electronic version of the POS that I can take a look at.

I would look through it, but it is 277 pages.
 
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m61376

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Hmmmm, I was under the impression that weeks exchanged for MRP went into the Marriott pool for rental from their website. I don't believe that MRP exchanges go into either the trust or legacy pool. Marriott is giving up MRP's and they'll need to get some rental income to cover that cost. Marriott isn't in the business of charity and it seems to me giving those weeks back to MVC for exchange would be charity IMHO.

Not only that, but there are several sold out or nearly sold out resorts where Marriott continues to rent weeks, in some cases for big $$'s. Those weeks have to come from somewhere once the developer inventory is gone.

Gee- I wonder if Marriott is going to give a points owner the week they may have requested in Aruba in February or rent it for almost $900 per night on Marriott.com? Interestingly, all but 2 nights of the non-President's week we will be there are unavailable even for rent; somehow I really doubt that Marriott would give up those high fee rental rates to fulfill someone's point request.
 

Swice

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joining/buying?

Wait a minute... two posters said they went to presentations this week and didn't buy??? That can't be right? The last presentation I went to, I was told EVERYBODY is joining and buying additional points. :rofl:
 

griffinhouse

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We were at Desert Springs II 2 weeks ago on an Encore package. We went to the presentation that was required of us fully expecting it to be high pressure. We were delightfully surprised that is was not. As to be expected the sales rep tried to sell us a package of points to supplement our legacy points. When I asked about combining them to obtain a higher-value trade he told us that there was basically no difference in legacy and trust points-that the 2 "buckets" did not exist and that we would have full access to all the Marriott properties. Although we were tempted we decided not to purchase additional points and to make optimal use of the weeks we already owned. Based on what I read on TUG I'm still not sure whether to believe him or not. But to his credit when we said we were going to pass he did not pressure us and let us leave. Overall, not a bad sales presentation.
 

Mamianka

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We were at Desert Springs II 2 weeks ago on an Encore package. We went to the presentation that was required of us fully expecting it to be high pressure. We were delightfully surprised that is was not. As to be expected the sales rep tried to sell us a package of points to supplement our legacy points. When I asked about combining them to obtain a higher-value trade he told us that there was basically no difference in legacy and trust points-that the 2 "buckets" did not exist and that we would have full access to all the Marriott properties. Although we were tempted we decided not to purchase additional points and to make optimal use of the weeks we already owned. Based on what I read on TUG I'm still not sure whether to believe him or not. But to his credit when we said we were going to pass he did not pressure us and let us leave. Overall, not a bad sales presentation.

Not sure whether to believe him or not? As has been said here many times - if his lips were moving, he was lying. There are most assuredly ARE two buckets - and then there are the exalted Premier and Premier Plus owners, too. We are going to be in Orlando 11/3 to 10, and I am sure that we will be encouraged/bribed to attend an *informational* meeting. Unless they will give us a free deed to a week - we are not going. No amount of points, cash, etc. is worth them taking my vacation time to pressure us and LIE to us. I respectfully decline.

M
 

dougp26364

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The problem the sales people have is that most of them have no practicle experience. They either don't own or don't use the product they sell. At least they don't use it to the extent most here on TUG use timeshares. The reality is they just don't understand the very product they're selling.

Sure they believe what upper management tells them. That legacy and trust points work together seamlessly. Upper management probably believes that themselves as I'm certain they don't use the product like TUG members do. But the true reality is that there ARE two buckets and that there must be inventory from both buckets to get the reservation. Trust points and legacy points might be able to work together seamlessly but, if the inventory from both buckets isn't there, then you don't get your reservation unless the exchange manager pours inventory from one bucket into the other.

Buying trust points does not legitimize legacy points like the sale force was trying to sell last year. Trust and legacy points are not seamless like they seem to be saying this year. There are two individual buckets and, when trying to mix them for one reservation, there must be inventory from BOTH buckets or you won't get your reservation.

Marriott has been saying that 100,000 owners have joined the DC. They also say that there are 400,000 owners. That would be 25% have joined. Now I'm assuming the 100,000 isn't just weeks put into the DC while 400,000 owners own 1,000,000 weeks. The more owners who join and the more owners who convert their legacy weeks to DC points, the easier it will become to make points based reservations. With more owners using points there will be fewer instances where there isn't enough inventory from both buckets.

The problem, of course, is that I don't believe Marriott has made the DC attractive enough for the majority of owners who have joined to convert their weeks into points. My intention is to belong but utilize points as little as possible. I will be converting two years worth of weeks at one ownership into points but, only because there was a change in our vacation patterns last year that leaves me needing to literally burn a week or two. If I'm going to lose a week, I might as well convert to points, go for a high value vacation week or two and call the view vs letting luck give me whatever view is available. After that I believe I'll be back to using my weeks in the weeks portion of the DC.
 

tiel

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Not sure why the trust public offering statement would include anything about legacy points. The POS would only mention what is pertinent to the trust and trust points. Do you remember what section or page it was on? I have an electronic version of the POS that I can take a look at.

I would look through it, but it is 277 pages.

Like I indicated earlier, I'm not sure what document it was in. I could kick myself...once, for going to the presentation at all, and again, for not taking a notepad. :D When we get home, I may try to find the reference. All I truly remember for sure at this point is, it was in book form (paperback size), roughly a half-inch thick. And it had a glossy white cover with the Marriott logo stuff on the front. Helpful, eh? Sorry. Wish I could remember better, but, I'm afraid I may be beyond that now!

BTW, we were very surprised they said the MRP and rental units went into the trust inventory, but it was presented to us like that twice...in a graphic and in bulleted form. Not saying it was accurate, but that I KNOW they said.
 

SMB1

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The problem the sales people have is that most of them have no practicle experience. They either don't own or don't use the product they sell. At least they don't use it to the extent most here on TUG use timeshares. The reality is they just don't understand the very product they're selling.

Sure they believe what upper management tells them. That legacy and trust points work together seamlessly. Upper management probably believes that themselves as I'm certain they don't use the product like TUG members do. But the true reality is that there ARE two buckets and that there must be inventory from both buckets to get the reservation. Trust points and legacy points might be able to work together seamlessly but, if the inventory from both buckets isn't there, then you don't get your reservation unless the exchange manager pours inventory from one bucket into the other.

Buying trust points does not legitimize legacy points like the sale force was trying to sell last year. Trust and legacy points are not seamless like they seem to be saying this year. There are two individual buckets and, when trying to mix them for one reservation, there must be inventory from BOTH buckets or you won't get your reservation.

Marriott has been saying that 100,000 owners have joined the DC. They also say that there are 400,000 owners. That would be 25% have joined. Now I'm assuming the 100,000 isn't just weeks put into the DC while 400,000 owners own 1,000,000 weeks. The more owners who join and the more owners who convert their legacy weeks to DC points, the easier it will become to make points based reservations. With more owners using points there will be fewer instances where there isn't enough inventory from both buckets.

The problem, of course, is that I don't believe Marriott has made the DC attractive enough for the majority of owners who have joined to convert their weeks into points. My intention is to belong but utilize points as little as possible. I will be converting two years worth of weeks at one ownership into points but, only because there was a change in our vacation patterns last year that leaves me needing to literally burn a week or two. If I'm going to lose a week, I might as well convert to points, go for a high value vacation week or two and call the view vs letting luck give me whatever view is available. After that I believe I'll be back to using my weeks in the weeks portion of the DC.

We were given a reasonable explanation as to how the two buckets can work seamlessly at a presentation we attended during an encore stay at OceanWatch this past August. We were told that if we use the 2000 points we purchased, or even half of them, to request a week that costs 3 or 4 or 5000 points, the exchange company can pull inventory from the legacy bucket as long as they replace the inventory with comparable inventory from the trust bucket. Thus we would have a reservation completely comprised of trust inventory. Naive...maybe, but it seems reasonable considering I've read here that they have the same ability to do this with II inventory. Of course it is still based on availability, but that is the case with any reservation.
 

puckmanfl

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good evening....

Tiel..

I think this is a new salesperson set of malarkey coming from the staff at this facility. When I had my presentation I was told that I could never see Trust inventory with my Legacy points. We know this is false!!!!

The trust contains deeded inventory put into the trust. Units turned in for DC points, MR points by definition have to go to the exchange company, otherwise the whole setup is kaplooie.... It really should not matter. Trust points owners get unfettered access to both buckets, Legacy points get unfettered access to the exchanege company and make exchanges to get Trust. I truly don't believe MVCD wants to completely outrage and alienate the Legacy owners by restricted access to inventory that comes from MRP and DC point conversions.

I still don't believ All of the fancy weeks aren't even available to these owners as many are more than 3k Points....The stats show that the average number of Trust points/sale are 2-2.5K....

Of course MVCD can put these in the rental pool!!!
 

sandytoes

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Like I indicated earlier, I'm not sure what document it was in. I could kick myself...once, for going to the presentation at all, and again, for not taking a notepad. :D When we get home, I may try to find the reference. All I truly remember for sure at this point is, it was in book form (paperback size), roughly a half-inch thick. And it had a glossy white cover with the Marriott logo stuff on the front. Helpful, eh? Sorry. Wish I could remember better, but, I'm afraid I may be beyond that now!

BTW, we were very surprised they said the MRP and rental units went into the trust inventory, but it was presented to us like that twice...in a graphic and in bulleted form. Not saying it was accurate, but that I KNOW they said.

We were told the same thing this week at an Oceana Palms precentaion . . . the MRP and the rental units go into the trust pool adnd are
available to trust point owners.
 

puckmanfl

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good morning....

This is some sleight of words by a well trained sales force. MRP and DC units go into Exchange Company, as by definition, they have to as the Trust is deeded ownership. Here's where it gets tricky!!! Trust players have direct access to BOTH Trust and Exchange, so technically they are correct. MRP and DC units are in the Trust pool. Legacy owners also have direct access to Exchange company...

These guys have to come up with a reason to get Legacy players to buy more points. Since, there is no way of proving where the inventory is coming from it is pretty easy to perform sleight of words.

At the Palms I asked my sales guy to put the "Trust points makes Legacy points better in writing". I offered to buy 2000 pts on the spot if he would do so. He declined.

I am not so sure regarding a sales strategy that belittles current owners... and devalues there current product...
 

kjd

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If the OP's version of combining points from the two "buckets" to make a high season reservation is correct, doesn't that make legacy owners who do not purchase trust points second class owners? Charging legacy owners for something that they already had under the weeks system (by changing the rules), is the lowest form of business ethics.

Furthermore if the OP's account is true, how truthful is Marriott's statement to legacy owners that you will always have what you previously had with the weeks system? Even if you choose to do nothing? I don't know about anyone else but I certainly do not want to give excuses for someone's conduct who has lied to me.

The sales staff can crow all they want about "everyone is buying trust points', but it still does not excuse their behavior if they are making these false statements to legacy owners. Hopefully the sales staff is just telling lies again and it's not Marriott's intention to make legacy owners inferior to trust owners. It's the legacy owners who have carried this company in the past. It would appear that customer loyalty in the timeshare business is only a concept.
 

jimf41

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It doesn't make any difference what bucket stuff is in or even if they have buckets. The only thing that counts is can you get a reservation easier than you can by trading your week. For me the answer has been an unqualified yes. Not everyone on this board has had such great success.

For sales reps to tell you that you can access to this bucket or that bucket is ludicrous. Who cares what bucket you get into as long as you get what you want. I can't wait for the rep to pull this one on me at the next presentation. I'll simply show him my DC trades into prime weeks at Trust and Legacy resorts using only Legacy points..
 

TheTimeTraveler

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It doesn't make any difference what bucket stuff is in or even if they have buckets. The only thing that counts is can you get a reservation easier than you can by trading your week. For me the answer has been an unqualified yes. Not everyone on this board has had such great success.

For sales reps to tell you that you can access to this bucket or that bucket is ludicrous. Who cares what bucket you get into as long as you get what you want. I can't wait for the rep to pull this one on me at the next presentation. I'll simply show him my DC trades into prime weeks at Trust and Legacy resorts using only Legacy points..



Well put!




.
 

funtime

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Enjoy your weeks and enjoy Oceana Palms. I wrote a review last spring and we could use more reviews. As to the points fiasco, what about the KISS principle (keept it simple stupid) did they not understand? The whole points and buckets scenario has lost me but I am happy with my weeks and I got in Oceana Palms on a last minute trade this last season for Easter week! Funtime
 

tiel

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If the OP's version of combining points from the two "buckets" to make a high season reservation is correct, doesn't that make legacy owners who do not purchase trust points second class owners? Charging legacy owners for something that they already had under the weeks system (by changing the rules), is the lowest form of business ethics.

Actually, the general "feel" of the presentation was legacy owners WILL BE inferior (if they aren't already) and will be left behind as MVC moves forward: over and over we were told what we would NOT be able to do in the future, like getting into any of the current mostly Trust properties or the new properties that are coming (Cancun, Curacao, and ????).

Regarding the buckets, I agree that it doesn't really matter, since there is absolutely no mechanism to prove what kind of inventory is available or IF there is inventory available. All we can tell is whether we get a reservation or not.

Two other tidbits from our presentation. 1. The sales rep said MVC plans to double the number of resorts in the next 5-7 years, in part by acquiring existing properties and renovating. I know this type of expansion was discussed in threads previously, but I didn't remember the timeframe or size of the expansion. This will be possible because of the spinoff, or so we were told. I don't see how this is possible, maybe even desirable, but it was a point that was supposed to lure us into buying. 2. If we were to buy, we could choose between a bonus point (something like 2800 pts) or cash incentive (around $2k); we were told the cash incentive was going away, and would not be offered again. :shrug:
 

puckmanfl

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good morning....

That's the sales pitch...buy or be left holding the proverbial bag. remember, the last stats 17,000 owners purchasing 35,000,000 points. A bit over 2,000 pts /owner. Only a few of the priviliged trust owners wil have anywhere near enough points to snag a week in hawaii, or any of the new resorts.... I don't think a week in Curacou will be 2000 pts.

Enjoy your legacy points, they will do fine!!!!!
 

dougp26364

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Actually, the general "feel" of the presentation was legacy owners WILL BE inferior (if they aren't already) and will be left behind as MVC moves forward: over and over we were told what we would NOT be able to do in the future, like getting into any of the current mostly Trust properties or the new properties that are coming (Cancun, Curacao, and ????).

Regarding the buckets, I agree that it doesn't really matter, since there is absolutely no mechanism to prove what kind of inventory is available or IF there is inventory available. All we can tell is whether we get a reservation or not.

Two other tidbits from our presentation. 1. The sales rep said MVC plans to double the number of resorts in the next 5-7 years, in part by acquiring existing properties and renovating. I know this type of expansion was discussed in threads previously, but I didn't remember the timeframe or size of the expansion. This will be possible because of the spinoff, or so we were told. I don't see how this is possible, maybe even desirable, but it was a point that was supposed to lure us into buying. 2. If we were to buy, we could choose between a bonus point (something like 2800 pts) or cash incentive (around $2k); we were told the cash incentive was going away, and would not be offered again. :shrug:

This is following the path Diamond Resorts has been following for the last couple of years. 3 years ago they aquired Sunterra, 2 years ago they failed in an attempt to aquire Bluegreen, but only because the economy tanked and getting the financing became impossible. This past year they aquired ILX resorts, they have an agreement to aquire Pacific Monarch, they aquired an additional resort in Orlando and they've added an affiliation with NCL cruise lines that allows the direct exchange of points for cruises at a reasonable exchange rate. All in all DRI has added 50 resorts worldwide to their collection and, from what I've seen online, great availability.

But the kicker for the resorts that are aquired is that DRI will bring them up to DRI standards, and that often means significant increases in MF's if the resort is currently below where DRI wants it to be. Thus, you see a lot of bad mouthing about MF increases or special assessments.

Personally, I'd be a little worried if I owned in a group of resorts or a single resort that Marriott was targeting. Marriott's standards are very high and so are their MF's. Owners at resorts aquired by Marriott could be in for MF shock as Marriott attempts to bring them up to Marriott standards.

As for Legacy point owners being left behind, great, I'll stay behind. We bought the resorts we own because we'd be happy using them year in and year out if all else fails. Since Marriott doesn't own I.I., SFX or any other independant exchange company, good luck controling what I can do outside of Marriott.

The truth is, I don't believe the salesmen when they tell owners that Marriott is out to screw them if they don't spend more money. They have something to sell and they've sunk so low as to use the standard scare tactics to get people to buy something they really don't need. It's one of the reasons I no longer go to the presentations. It's just not worth the agrivations and they're not going to tell me anything I can't find out somewhere else. We've moved on from collecting MR Points and I don't need the agrivation for $75. Plus, at this point, I'm not interested in adding to our Marriott ownership. I have all the Marriott weeks I can afford. Marriott isn't cheap and they're not getting any cheaper.
 

GregT

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All,

It's interesting that they are now touting that Legacy and Trust Points can be combined seamlessly (as people assumed in the beginning when they purchased them). This is different from our reported experience, but this should have been something they can figure out how to do.

It will be good when one of our TUGgers who own Trust Points can confirm this -- perhaps SuperChief or HotCoffee can do so -- but we don't see HC around here much anymore...

Best,

Greg
 

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good morning

Greg...

I don't believe they are toutingthat Trust and Legacy can be merged seamlessly!! The OP states, they will give a Legay owner a ONE SHOT amnesty( per year) where Trust points do supercharge legacy points. I believe that this is a new sales tactic and not true!!! The whole distinction between Trust and Legacy is a legal definition. Trust consists of deeds in the trust, where Legacy consists of points in an internal exchange system. I guess that MVCD can move inventory around to preferentially make inventory to a Legacy owner that has some minimum of Trust points. I would think that if there was a magical way of Supercharging legaacy points (even once a year) I would expecty MVCD would advertise it...

ATTN...
Legacy owners...

don't be left out...

a small minimum purchase of new points will guarantee access to all the good stuff...

we have not seen this!!!! I believe this is sales staff horse hockey....

I snagged OF at Grande Ocean this upcoming August. As this resort is almost sold I can only assume that my unit came from wither DC point or MRP conversion! I have no Trust points, How did I snag 3 ski weeks and this GO week? If you can only getthese weeks if you have Trust points???
 

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Jul 26, 2006
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16,622
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5,802
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
I agree with Jim and Puck, what matters is whether or not you can get the in-demand inventory with DC points from converted Weeks, and we've been able to do that. Among other DC stays we could get either Grande Ocean or Barony Plat this past summer - we first took GO but then switched to Barony when it became available later.

Sure it's interesting to try to figure out how it all can and should work, and probably that's going to matter much more through the years if/when there are a whole lot more Trust Points sold. But it's also helpful to condense all the talk down to what Jim has done - "does it work?" For some owners the answer is yes. What seems least helpful of all is listening to a majority of the sales reps during presentations - and that's no different now than it was when Weeks were the only game in town.

One thing I keep going back to, though, is that it doesn't seem like Marriott could have developed a new system that wouldn't be so convoluted but would be able to integrate existing Weeks owners, while at the same time giving Marriott the most bang for their buck. I don't blame them for considering their bottom line - there isn't a company in the world which isn't focused first on their bottom line. The new system set-up with a Trust for inventory/marketing and an Exchange Company for facilitating reservations among all DC Members allows that every Marriott owner who wants in can be included, at the same time protecting the existing Weeks owners from losing any of their deeded rights whether they enroll or not.

If they had managed to develop a new system that was less convoluted but didn't give them the best return AND didn't allow Weeks owners to participate or required Weeks owners to forfeit their Weeks deeds for inclusion, who would be happy then?
 
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