Article: Rethinking the Coronavirus Shutdown

[bbodb1]

Honor your mother and father.

...but they need to eat too....

 

[Brett]

Certain state leaders dismissed it too.

yes, state and federal leaders ....... so who is to blame
or maybe the virus is like the weather ..... nothing you can do about it, just hunker down and hope for the best

 

[bluehende]

I will state again that we cannot ignore the economic impact of this virus no matter what. It is not a choice between the economy humming and more die or less die and we destroy the economy. This virus was going to have a huge impact on the economy no matter what. Imagine the reaction and fear when the dead start piling up and people realize anyone or any business can give it to them. Does anyone think that people would be going about their everyday business humming a Disney tune with millions dying around them. It was not the government that shut down the economy. It was the virus. This economy was going to shut down whether by government intervention or by fear and panic and to be honest I am not sure which scenario hurts the economy more.

 

[CO skier]

Does anyone think that people would be going about their everyday business humming a Disney tune with millions dying around them. It was not the government that shut down the economy. It was the virus. This economy was going to shut down whether by government intervention or by fear and panic and to be honest I am not sure which scenario hurts the economy more.

We may soon know the answer. Neither the virus nor the government shut down the Swedish economy, and they have not shut down their borders. A compare-and-contrast will be easy for the Monday morning quarterbacks when this is all over comparing the authoritarian communist China approach, to the Laissez-faire Sweden approach, to the Keystone Cops approach of the good ole USA.

 

[goaliedave]

yes, state and federal leaders ....... so who is to blame
or maybe the virus is like the weather ..... nothing you can do about it, just hunker down and hope for the best

So sad to watch USA feds and states/cities argue... NY today claimed POTUS declared war with interstate travel restrictions idea. Meanwhile in Canada today, similar domestic restrictions put in place no issue. Gotta suck it up for 2 weeks at least.

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[bluehende]

We may soon know the answer. Neither the virus nor the government shut down the Swedish economy, and they have not shut down their borders. A compare-and-contrast will be easy for the Monday morning quarterbacks when this is all over comparing the authoritarian communist China approach, to the Laissez-faire Sweden approach, to the Keystone Cops approach of the good ole USA.

Maybe not. Looks like they are a couple weeks behind us.

Sweden Bans Groups Larger Than 50 In Its First Major Coronavirus Crackdown

The previous ban was for groups of 500. Unlike its neighbors, Sweden has kept schools, restaurants, bars and businesses open. Reports of massive after-ski parties have shocked other Scandinavians.

www.npr.org

the country's Public Health Agency has issued a series of recommendations. Anyone with symptoms, as well as those over 70, are advised to stay home. People who are able to work from home are encouraged to do so, and authorities recommend against unnecessary travel both inside and outside the country.

And this about the economy which was the premise of my post. This is also a good article on their culture too.

Could the Swedish lifestyle help fight coronavirus?

Swedes are used to living alone, following rules and championing innovation. How much will these social norms help during the coronavirus crisis?

www.bbc.com

Although keen to stress that coronavirus is still “dealing a really hard blow” to the economy, with bigger levels of layoffs than during the financial crisis,

 

[CO skier]

Maybe not. Looks like they are a couple weeks behind us.

How can any country, at this point in the worldwide exponential infection curve, be behind any other country with international airports?

 

[CO skier]

the country's Public Health Agency has issued a series of recommendations. Anyone with symptoms, as well as those over 70, are advised to stay home. People who are able to work from home are encouraged to do so, and authorities recommend against unnecessary travel both inside and outside the country.

 

[bluehende]

How can any country, at this point in the worldwide exponential infection curve, be behind any other country with international airports?

Weren't we talking about country reaction

 

[CO skier]

Weren't we talking about country reaction

I thought we were discussing the "bizarro world" opinions of country/world economic shutdowns.

 

[Roger830]

Here's an interesting graph when Italy's death count was 8458.
My age group 70+ is 84% of total
The age group 60+ is 95% of total

What kind of life will we have if the economy is destroyed to save some seniors that are a burden on the retirement and medical care systems?

Italy: COVID deaths by age group 2023 | Statista

The distribution of COVID deaths varies by age. People aged 80-89 are the most affected in Italy. Figures are updated weekly.

www.statista.com

 

[HitchHiker71]

We may soon know the answer. Neither the virus nor the government shut down the Swedish economy, and they have not shut down their borders. A compare-and-contrast will be easy for the Monday morning quarterbacks when this is all over comparing the authoritarian communist China approach, to the Laissez-faire Sweden approach, to the Keystone Cops approach of the good ole USA.

I believe Mexico has made basically the same choice as Sweden. Take it as it comes, let God sort it out, however you want to phrase it.

I have no doubt during the aftermath we will litigate a plethora of scenarios with 20/20 hindsight as to how to better manage the next pandemic. And then in typical human fashion, given these events rarely happen, as the generations that experience such events and make the adaptations die off, we will become lax about spending time, effort and money on things that have no immediate or near term value. Such is the human condition IME. Just like we did this time given the reality of the Spanish flu pandemic 100 years ago.

To some extent this all feels like one of those answers I’ve given when asked about marriage or having children. You are never really ready until you do it - no matter how much you prepare - and then you somehow figure out how to make it work real time when faced with inevitable adversities that life presents.


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[HitchHiker71]

How can any country, at this point in the worldwide exponential infection curve, be behind any other country with international airports?

Because viruses don’t spread across the globe with the same speed and intensity into all regions at the same time, so therefore the outbreaks occur at different times in different places, as the chart below shows. Not every country reacts the same way either, and so some countries that have reacted quickly and with intention have blunted their curves (Hong Kong, South Korea, Singapore, Vietnam, etc). As you can see from this chart - we are going to be worse than Italy ten days out from now - when we reach their point on the x axis:

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[WVBaker]

Here's an interesting graph when Italy's death count was 8458.
My age group 70+ is 84% of total
The age group 60+ is 95% of total

What kind of life will we have if the economy is destroyed to save some seniors that are a burden on the retirement and medical care systems?

Italy: COVID deaths by age group 2023 | Statista

The distribution of COVID deaths varies by age. People aged 80-89 are the most affected in Italy. Figures are updated weekly.

www.statista.com

View attachment 18360

Just so we understand, seniors are a "burden" on the retirement and medical care systems? At just what age does someone become a "burden"?

 

[Roger830]

Just so we understand, seniors are a "burden" on the retirement and medical care systems? At just what age does someone become a "burden"?

Obviously there is no specific age, I talking about seniors as a group. Individually it's probably a function of one's assets and health.

SS, medicare, state pensions are underfunded. Now massive deficit spending could lead to runaway inflation.

 

[WVBaker]

So you're basing one's value on their "assets and health"? If they must rely on any form of assistance, government or otherwise, they're being a burden?

 

[bbodb1]

"Burden" is a very pejorative word.
But it is correct in the sense the government has obligations it is supposed to fulfill to this group.
Perhaps obligation might be a better word? Just a thought...

 

[Roger830]

So you're basing one's value on their "assets and health"? If they must rely on any form of assistance, government or otherwise, they're being a burden?

Right now in NYC health care is being rationed because of the burden seniors on putting on the system. If you want to use a different word, it's ok with me.

My 52 and 60 year old sister in law and her husband have corona, she's recovering nicely. He developed symptoms later and is doing fine. No burden.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Right now in NYC health care is being rationed because of the burden seniors on putting on the system. If you want to use a different word, it's ok with me.

My 52 and 60 year old sister in law and her husband have corona, she's recovering nicely. He developed symptoms later and is doing fine. No burden.

I think I get what you are saying. In Italy this type of healthcare rationing is now in full force for the 20% that require hospitalization - I’m reading anecdotal evidence that anyone over 60 years of age no longer received ventilation and is simply left to die so that younger more healthy patients have more access to ventilators. Difficult choices to say the least - but if we have to choose - save the younger patients seems to be the consensus. NYC will quickly be faced with the same decision points probably within ten days if the estimates are accurate.

Thoughts and prayers for your sister in law and husband - glad to hear they are both recovering and coping well to date.


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[HitchHiker71]

"Burden" is a very pejorative word.
But it is correct in the sense the government has obligations it is supposed to fulfill to this group.
Perhaps obligation might be a better word? Just a thought...

It has long been know that the majority of healthcare dollars are spent on life saving and end of life care for the elderly. This came up back when Obamacare was passed and referenced as the “death panels” by certain media outlets - which was really just a reference to encouraging advance decision making with respect to end of life decisions and corresponding care costs.

I caught Michael Olsterholm on a recent Joe Rogan podcast regarding coronavirus and when Joe asked him about the high death rates for the elderly population, his answer was that statistically speaking the elderly already have the highest likelihood of death - apart from anything related to new viruses such as the coronavirus. This population segment also has the highest percentage of underlying health conditions which increase the likelihood of death for any ARDS type inducing virus such as coronavirus. It is what it is.


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[geekette]

Just so we understand, seniors are a "burden" on the retirement and medical care systems? At just what age does someone become a "burden"?

Chilling, right? don't worry, I'm sure they will lower that bar to include 20 year old disabled folks. As soon as you can't produce profit for someone, now or in the future, bye bye. profits over people.

gross.

 

[geekette]

Right now in NYC health care is being rationed because of the burden seniors on putting on the system. If you want to use a different word, it's ok with me.

My 52 and 60 year old sister in law and her husband have corona, she's recovering nicely. He developed symptoms later and is doing fine. No burden.

BS.

Care is being rationed because of lack of preparation for Sick People. Of all ages.

 

[goaliedave]

BS.

Care is being rationed because of lack of preparation for Sick People. Of all ages.

Agree with everything you post. Happy to know a large number like you in USA who see the issues clearly and don't get caught up in meaningless discussions of details.

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[bluehende]

Obviously there is no specific age, I talking about seniors as a group. Individually it's probably a function of one's assets and health.

SS, medicare, state pensions are underfunded. Now massive deficit spending could lead to runaway inflation.

You know the old adage......stop digging.

 

[Karen G]

Continuing to harp on what was done or not done in the past and by whom it was done or not done serves no one. Our focus should be on what can be done going forward and trying to work together to get through this unprecedented time.