Are you happy??

[troy12n]

Regarding the 1 night stays again. I only ever used them once or twice and it's been a while, but from memory, you could only make a 1 night reservation if it was inside the 90 day (express?) window, just like 2 night stays... outside of 91 or more days out, the minimum reservation is 3 nights at most (all?) resorts.

Also regarding housekeeping, I think that was used as an excuse to get rid of it. Most Wyndham owners are not VIP's, and even some (all since mid 2021) VIP's don't have unlimited housekeeping, so in effect, the housekeeping is being charged. So what's the issue? I know all the resorts, hotels and pretty much ALL businesses are having a hard time hiring people right now, especially for manual labor type jobs, and the ones they can hire are asking for more money. So there's external pressure to keep costs down.

One more thing, I have to imagine, that 1 night reservations were an EXTREMELY SMALL minority of total bookings. We will never have access to the data, so we will never know for sure, but i'm guessing less than 1% of total bookings, so I don't see how this even moves the needle when it comes to "costs"...

Maybe there was something in the IT backend that made getting rid of 1 night stays beneficial, but the website is such a mess, who knows.

This is definitely one thing they can add back easily, and like I said, maybe it can be an olive branch to VIP's...

 

[HitchHiker71]

Regarding the 1 night stays again. I only ever used them once or twice and it's been a while, but from memory, you could only make a 1 night reservation if it was inside the 90 day (express?) window, just like 2 night stays... outside of 91 or more days out, the minimum reservation is 3 nights at most (all?) resorts.

Also regarding housekeeping, I think that was used as an excuse to get rid of it. Most Wyndham owners are not VIP's, and even some (all since mid 2021) VIP's don't have unlimited housekeeping, so in effect, the housekeeping is being charged. So what's the issue? I know all the resorts, hotels and pretty much ALL businesses are having a hard time hiring people right now, especially for manual labor type jobs, and the ones they can hire are asking for more money. So there's external pressure to keep costs down.

One more thing, I have to imagine, that 1 night reservations were an EXTREMELY SMALL minority of total bookings. We will never have access to the data, so we will never know for sure, but i'm guessing less than 1% of total bookings, so I don't see how this even moves the needle when it comes to "costs"...

Maybe there was something in the IT backend that made getting rid of 1 night stays beneficial, but the website is such a mess, who knows.

This is definitely one thing they can add back easily, and like I said, maybe it can be an olive branch to VIP's...

IIRC one night stays were only available once the cancellation window expired at 15 days (so 14 days out). It was a last minute type benefit to help fill in overnight inventory gaps and boost occupancy rates from Wyndham's standpoint. I don't think it had anything to do with IT items - enforcing the two day booking minimum actually caused more website headaches in reality - as the monthly availability calendar still doesn't correctly display available dates only for the two night minimums for example. This worked for a little while a couple years back when we first brought up this discrepancy - but it's hit or miss as to whether the MAC actually properly displays inventory that respects the two night minimums now - which is partially why people keep getting the "something unexpected just happened" when using the MAC to search for inventory. Starting in Q4 2022 - when you select a single date that shows as available as a start date - the MAC does nothing - you cannot select an end date - it just sits there. I suspect this is because there's only one night available in these instances at least some of the time.

 

[CO skier]

I see your point, however as that is the average, I would think that they turn a one night stay much faster than a multiple night stay. Also the fee for one night stays is based on number of credits the stay is worth, so in my experience the $80 minimum is for a studio Which is a faster turn. You aren’t going to get a 2 br, 3 br for that.

The kids are grown, but we spent many 1-nighter in 3 bedroom units on Inventory Specials and Bonus Time. There were sad faces on the very rare occasions when we had to spend one night in a hotel room.

Still a great deal:
Bonus Time and Inventory Special rate is currently $0.081/credit.

White Season 3 Bedroom (2 bedrooms and 1 bedrooms are fewer credits, so the same minimum charge)
Sunday 1000 credits = $81/night
Monday - Thursday 875 credits = $80/night minimum

Blue Season is fewer credits than White, so the same charges as above in Blue Season plus:
Blue Season 2 Bedroom
Friday & Saturday 1100 credits = $89.10

More than 50% of WorldMark resorts have these credit values.

 

[CO skier]

Facts vs. accusations of “fake news”? I’ll have the facts, please.

Riiight? But facts take time and effort to discover. Anybody can make fake news accusations that sound good; it is like a cottage industry in the TUG Wyndham forum.

 

[Mongoose]

The kids are grown, but we spent many 1-nighter in 3 bedroom units on Inventory Specials and Bonus Time. There were sad faces on the very rare occasions when we had to spend one night in a hotel room.

Still a great deal:
Bonus Time and Inventory Special rate is currently $0.081/credit.

White Season 3 Bedroom (2 bedrooms and 1 bedrooms are fewer credits, so the same minimum charge)
Sunday 1000 credits = $81/night
Monday - Thursday 875 credits = $80/night minimum

Blue Season is fewer credits than White, so the same charges as above in Blue Season plus:
Blue Season 2 Bedroom
Friday & Saturday 1100 credits = $89.10

More than 50% of WorldMark resorts have these credit values.

You kinda forgot the red season. Much lower occupancy in blue and white. Just because it’s available doesn’t mean it’s used. It equals out. The adjust the minimums.

 

[CO skier]

You kinda forgot the red season. Much lower occupancy in blue and white. Just because it’s available doesn’t mean it’s used. It equals out. The adjust the minimums.

I simply read what you wrote. You did not limit your comment to Red Season; it was a blanket "can't be done", so I showed how easily and cheaply 2 and 3 bedroom units can be booked at or near the $80/minimum in more than 50% of the WorldMark resorts. WorldMark owners love, love, love their Bonus Time.

Try booking Blue Season at St. George, for example, in September to arrive in November. You will find a day here and there and that is it. What little is left books during Bonus Time.

 

[Mongoose]

I simply read what you wrote. You did not limit your comment to Red Season; it was a blanket "can't be done", so I showed how easily and cheaply 2 and 3 bedroom units can be booked at or near the $80/minimum in more than 50% of the WorldMark resorts. WorldMark owners love, love, love their Bonus Time.

Try booking Blue Season at St. George, for example, in September to arrive in November. You will find a day here and there and that is it. What little is left books during Bonus Time.

Not an all. I never said “can’t be done”. I pointed out that looking at averages across all stays does not prove that someone is”clearly losing money” in the case of 1 night stays for bonus time. It also simply takes more supplies and labor to clean a unit after a 7 day stay than a 1 day stay. Anyway, I think we agree on what a great benefit bonus time and 1 night stays are. I am also looking forward to St. George. I could use a 1 night stay there for an upcoming trip to SoCal.

 

[CO skier]

Not an all. I never said “can’t be done”.

Then what did you mean when you wrote?:

so in my experience the $80 minimum is for a studio ... You aren’t going to get a 2 br, 3 br for that.

 

[Don40]

Co Skier, I am glad that we agree Worldmark is definitely a better timeshare program in regards to owners rights. as they are allowed single nite stays, maintenance fees, bonus credit. During a pandemic it is reasonable to stop some things, the issue is after the pandemic why did WM get the single nite stay back and Club Wyndham not? As I stated the WM original TS documents are written with owners in mind. You have been around along time and know the when WM was purchased by WYN (Cendent) they wanted to blend WM as they did Vacation Break USA, but they could not that is why we have 2 systems a WM and Wyn and now Shell.

excerpt from Worldmark docs

1. Last 48 Hour Exemptions. To provide Owners with maximum opportunity for usage and to minimize vacancies, any Club Units that have not been reserved at least 48 hours (two days) before use shall be open for reservations, which will be exempt from the following Guidelines:
   • Section C, No. 8: Length of Stay Requirements
   • Section C, No. 10: Number of Vacation Credit Reservations
   • Section C, No. 11: Number of Bonus Time Reservations

Second point WM does not lose any money booking single nites and neither does WYN, cleaning cost is a red herring. Every timeshare HOA has a budget and those cost are broken down from dollars (maintenance fees) to points per day. if the resort is not used for any nite they still get paid and income is booked without any associated expenses, pure profit. WYN is the envy of the hoteliers, for a hotel to make money a nite has to be booked and paid. The TS model does not rely on anyone booking a room to make money just maintenance fees paid.

As I said Mr. Brown did not take a pay cut nor any of the other officers during Covid, that would never happen in our lifetimes. Stripping away benefits is just one way to make more money for them, when was the last time your maintenance fees went down, now when was the last time the CEO salary went up do you see the big picture.

 

[CO skier]

You have been around along time and know the when WM was purchased by WYN (Cendent) they wanted to blend WM as they did Vacation Break USA, but they could not that is why we have 2 systems a WM and Wyn and now Shell.

I would like to see any documentation on that, because I guess I have not been around long enough. I am sure Cendent did its due diligence and knew that WorldMark's governing documents are written as a stand alone vacation club, just like Club Wynham (probably Shell, too, but I know nothing about Shell).

excerpt from Worldmark docs

1. Last 48 Hour Exemptions. To provide Owners with maximum opportunity for usage and to minimize vacancies, any Club Units that have not been reserved at least 48 hours (two days) before use shall be open for reservations, which will be exempt from the following Guidelines:
   • Section C, No. 8: Length of Stay Requirements
   • Section C, No. 10: Number of Vacation Credit Reservations
   • Section C, No. 11: Number of Bonus Time Reservations

Not sure what this has to do with anything? Plus, this is from the Guidelines, which I am sure you have been around long to enough to know they can change at any time. There are no owner rights here.

Second point WM does not lose any money booking single nites and neither does WYN, cleaning cost is a red herring. Every timeshare HOA has a budget and those cost are broken down from dollars (maintenance fees) to points per day.

Ask any resort manager what 1-night stays in 3 and 4 bedroom units does to their budget and you will learn that housekeeping costs are very real.

As I said Mr. Brown did not take a pay cut nor any of the other officers during Covid, that would never happen in our lifetimes. Stripping away benefits is just one way to make more money for them, when was the last time your maintenance fees went down, now when was the last time the CEO salary went up do you see the big picture.

You are conflating two separate issues. The amount of money Wyndham makes from managing WorldMark the Club is a rounding error in total corporate profits. What would Wyndham do with the one-time use credits they receive from members using Personal Choice? Stripping away Monday Madness and FAX credit benefits would not make any cent$.

Just out of curiousity, have you ever read a WorldMark the Club annual report or an auditor's report, because it sounds like you have not?

 

[rickandcindy23]

We just enjoyed a road trip to/ from January. Booked 2-night stays everywhere because we had to. Most of them, we stayed just one night but booked the two nights. Some we stayed both of the nights we booked because the units were so comfortable and nice, and we were in no hurry. Two nights of rest was good.

Villa Ricca was our disappointment because it was not a welcoming, nice experience and gave me the impression of "old." But the sofa was nice. The TV's were teeny weeny, and the end tables were tiny, and the bedding was cheap, worn out stuff. I don't think we would go that direction again.

Road trips are the best. Loved the entire thing with my love and our Audible books.

 

[Mongoose]

I would like to see any documentation on that, because I guess I have not been around long enough. I am sure Cendent did its due diligence and knew that WorldMark's governing documents are written as a stand alone vacation club, just like Club Wynham (probably Shell, too, but I know nothing about Shell).


Not sure what this has to do with anything? Plus, this is from the Guidelines, which I am sure you have been around long to enough to know they can change at any time. There are no owner rights here.


Ask any resort manager what 1-night stays in 3 and 4 bedroom units does to their budget and you will learn that housekeeping costs are very real.


You are conflating two separate issues. The amount of money Wyndham makes from managing WorldMark the Club is a rounding error in total corporate profits. What would Wyndham do with the one-time use credits they receive from members using Personal Choice? Stripping away Monday Madness and FAX credit benefits would not make any cent$.

Just out of curiousity, have you ever read a WorldMark the Club annual report or an auditor's report, because it sounds like you have not?

I agree the 1 night stays in larger units require more labor And supplies. I just haven’t seem a lot of inventory in 3&4 br units for $80. Not saying it doesn’t happen, I just don’t think it’s common enough to blow up their budget. Do you still own WM?

 

[CO skier]

I agree the 1 night stays in larger units require more labor And supplies. I just haven’t seem a lot of inventory in 3&4 br units for $80. Not saying it doesn’t happen, I just don’t think it’s common enough to blow up their budget.

You must not try all that hard. It took me 2 minutes to find a lot of dates in March Ski Season at South Shore in a 3 bedroom for Bonus Time. Sure, $101 instead of $80, but where else can anyone find a deal like that. (Housekeeping charges on a 3 bedroom are currently $143.) Here again, "someone" is paying for this deficit; not the owner staying there on Bonus Time.

How about Steamboat Springs during ski season in a 2 bedroom for $89.10?

It took only minutes to find these skiing opportunities. Wishing I had the time ...

 

[CO skier]

Do you still own WM?

Yes, of course, and not only that, I have recently purchased 90,000 more credits for my personal use (resale, of course) where the sellers are pre-paying for many months of credits that I will use, so it cost me thousands of dollars less than nothing. This will likely mean selling my Club Wyndham.

WorldMark is, imo, a far superior product than any other timeshare out there -- direct booking, exchanges, number of resorts, quality of resorts (Penthouse and Presidential units, if an owner wants them).

 

[troy12n]

This will likely mean selling my Club Wyndham.

What, where, and how much do you own? I'm looking for a low MF resale contract to add to what I already have and ebay is full of sharks

 

[troy12n]

I live on the East coast and would definitely buy into Worldmark if they had more resorts on this side of the country, but they DO NOT. And both me and my wife hate flying.

 

[troy12n]

@CO skier

I see you messaged me, just FYI, I am unable to open the message you sent me, you can email me at tnolen12@tampabay.rr.com

Private messages have never worked reliably for me on this website, for whatever reason...

 

[WyndhamBarter]

for whatever reason...

Could *this* be the reason?

free direct exchanges with all other TUG members!

(please excuse any snarkiness - I've been a paid member long enough
that I don't actually remember if guests can use the PM system.)

 

[HitchHiker71]

Co Skier, I am glad that we agree Worldmark is definitely a better timeshare program in regards to owners rights. as they are allowed single nite stays, maintenance fees, bonus credit. During a pandemic it is reasonable to stop some things, the issue is after the pandemic why did WM get the single nite stay back and Club Wyndham not? As I stated the WM original TS documents are written with owners in mind.

My understanding is that the WM TS documents require one-night stays as a stated benefit - whereas the CWP TS documents do not. Hence the reason why Wyndham was forced to bring one night stays back for WM owners - whereas they are not under that requirement for CW owners.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I live on the East coast and would definitely buy into Worldmark if they had more resorts on this side of the country, but they DO NOT. And both me and my wife hate flying.

We are in pretty much the same boat - we live on the east coast in the mid-Atlantic area and while we don't mind flying - we both still work full time and will be doing so for the next 10-15 years best estimate - so much of our travel is weekend getaways except for 2-4 weeks of longer booked vacations. Building flight time and such into a weekend just doesn't make it worthwhile for us - feels like too much travel time - so we generally limit drive time for weekend getaways to 2-3 hours one direction. We have done up to five hours one direction - but even that has started to feel like too much for 2-3 nights at one resort. We'll start with using Club Pass - and if all is well as we approach retirement - perhaps we'll consider some resale WM ownership at that point in time. I'm sure we would feel differently if we lived out west in comparison.

That said - our local airport here in Delaware just added Avelo Airlines routes down to Florida a few times a week - so we may actually start planning weekend getaways down to Orlando or Fort Lauderdale areas and see how those go for us. Our regional airport is literally only ten minutes from our home.

 

[CO skier]

My understanding is that the WM TS documents require one-night stays as a stated benefit - whereas the CWP TS documents do not. Hence the reason why Wyndham was forced to bring one night stays back for WM owners - whereas they are not under that requirement for CW owners.

Wherever you got that understanding, it is incorrect. (There is as much fake news about WorldMark as there is about Club Wyndham). There are three governing documents for WorldMark the Club. In order of governing hierarchy they are 1) The Declaration of Vacation Ownership, which may be modified only by 50% majority of the entire voting membership, less the Declarant (never going to happen), 2) the WorldMark the Club bylaws, which may be modified only by 25% of the total voting power of the membership, less the Declarant, 3) the Club Guidelines, which may be modified by a majority vote of the Board of Directors.

If the WorldMark TS documents "require one-night stays as a stated benefit," Wyndham would never have been able to modify this. The one-night stays appear only in the Club Guidelines. I do not believe the WorldMark Board of Directors ever modified the Guidelines to permanently remove one-night stays (as a state benefit), but they could have.

IIRC, it was stated at a WorldMark annual meeting that one-night stays were brought back to WorldMark because there was overwhelming feedback from WorldMark members about losing them.

 

[lost patience]

I've been considering buying a low maintenance fee Wyndham contract for a while, waiting for the right time and the right opportunity. But reading this forum consistently I've come away with a palpable sense of frustration, anger and cynicism from some of the owners posting here, which gives me pause about buying in. Some of the pain points in recent posts:

• Terrible, clunky website that makes finding and booking what you want difficult and painful, with seemingly no prospect of it improving.
• Check-in staff hassling owners to attend sales presentations.
• Revelations that Wyndham prioritizes its own rental bookings and inventory to the detriment of owners.
• A draconian crackdown on renting (that to my eyes appears to be scapegoating owners as a cover for the above shady practice of de-prioritizing owner inventory).
• The approved rental portal (Extra Holidays) that seems to operate barely better than a scam.

And that doesn't even address sales tactics, which need not be rehashed here. So here's my question to all the owners here: given how Wyndham operates, are you happy with your ownership? Are the vacations you get at Wyndham resorts worth the negatives mentioned above and elsewhere? On balance, if you had it to do over again, knowing what you know now, would you buy Wyndham again?

I'm a 30+ year Founders level owner. What you state aligns very well with my feelings.
.
-** Love the actual resorts. Prepurchased vacations. Our family has had amazing vacations across the US, Hawaii, virgin islands. **
.
to your list, add the following:
.
- unit overbooking. A new phenomenon with the "new" website.
- Hate many of the wyndham policy changes from the last 4 (?) years. But, more importantly, hate the implementation. Resale split from VIP points, paymentus, dual factor etc.
- Hate that Wyndham does not think they need to honor an upgrade. when Wyndham system allows overbooking, they email/call and tell you that the 2br you booked with an upgrade is not available, so they are providing the 1br that you initially booked. It does not matter that you received that upgrade 50 days ago, and that you have 8 people who have purchased plane tickets heading to a resort with a 1br that will sleep 4. Wyndham just says tough luck. Inexcusable.

 

[Cely218]

I am happy, as a resale owner. While I do think some of the current problems with the website are terrible, I don't think the website as a whole is terrible, if that distinction makes any sense. For the number of reservations I make per year (typically 2-5 annually with 388,500 points), the website has not impeded my ability to make any of them.

I am becoming increasingly skeptical of Wyndham's ability to bring the website back up to speed and deal with increasing customer service issues such as the transfer to the new payment system (which is less of a "website" issue than a longstanding backend data issue that has resurfaced with a vengeance due to the transition). But I am generally still able to do what I need to, and my investment was intentionally low so that if I ever feel the need to walk away, I will. But I'm adding to my points, not getting out right now. I understand the system back to front and it still works for me.

I haven't had a problem with Wyndham prioritizing its own bookings (and I'm not even entirely sure that's true), because as a resale owner I tend to book 10 months out. Most of the issues people find with availability happen much closer in.

I don't rent, and it was never really a profitable prospect for me as a non-VIP with no guaranteed discounts. I could never compete on price with them.

Sales staff and the push to attend meetings is annoying, but "no" is still a complete sentence. I've been fortunate to be on the do not sell list since I gave back two contracts to Wyndham a few years ago.

I think a lot more of the dissatisfaction comes from folks who purchased from Wyndham and are generally VIP. Their sunk costs are higher, and their tolerance for changes that impact them negatively is lower, which is completely understandable. On this day in 2023 I would never recommend going this route from scratch. It's much easier to let stuff roll off your back as a resale owner when you can pretty much leave when you want (or within about six months of when you decide you're done).

Hello! How does one that has resale (I do) go about leaving when you want (or within 6 months)?

Sealions

 

[BoomerKwanger]

Hello! How does one that has resale (I do) go about leaving when you want (or within 6 months)?

Sealions

In most cases, if the contract is fully paid off and you're current with maintenance fees, you can just call Wyndham's Certified Exit program and they'll take it back (and probably try to resell to someone else at full price).

Alternatively, if it's at a desirable resort, you can post it on the TUG bargain deals/free timeshare forums or even sell it on here or eBay to "keep it in the resale family" as it were.

 

[schreff]

In most cases, if the contract is fully paid off and you're current with maintenance fees, you can just call Wyndham's Certified Exit program and they'll take it back (and probably try to resell to someone else at full price).

Alternatively, if it's at a desirable resort, you can post it on the TUG bargain deals/free timeshare forums or even sell it on here or eBay to "keep it in the resale family" as it were.

If you invested 6 figures to become Founders and then all the s..t hits the fan, it is hard to give up you timeshares for 0 dollars. As a long time, Fairfield/Wyndham owners, this is what happened to us. Good luck and GB.