Are elected points from ownership weeks equal to trust points? We just left a Marriott sales pitch and we were led to believe they were not!

[Rbrass11]

We just left a Marriott sales pitch, and were told that unless we sold our deeded vacation club weeks back to MVCI (for point value of the units times the current cost of a point, currently $17.64) and repurchased the same amount of trust points, we would not be able to use our legacy points obtained by banking points from our deeded weeks and combine them with the trust points we receive.

This is completely opposite from what we were led to believe when we joined the destinations program and bought trust point years ago. Can anyone confirm that “a point is a point”, and that it is not necessary to sell legacy deeded weeks for trust points in order to participate in the updated Abound programs. Thanks in advance!!

 

[TheTimeTraveler]

Sounds like the salesperson was grooming you for a juicy commission. You didn't bite! Smart move!







.

 

[jwalk03]

You were lied to. Pretty typical for a sales presentation.

 

[vacationtime1]

You were lied to. Pretty typical for a sales presentation.

No, this was not a typical lie. This was a huge, outrageous lie,

 

[dioxide45]

Technically a point doesn't equal a point. In practice a point does equal a point.

 

[Hindsite]

They could according to the exchange procedures, separate out the inventory accessible to Trust points vs enrolled points owners, but the way the Abound exchange is set up doesn't seem to function that way in practice. Way back at the start of the points system there were reports that it was done in limited amounts, but nothing has been identified for most of a decade that I have seen.
If they did implement then change then it would drive away a lot of really good quality inventory from Abound as weeks owners would not be motivated to elect for club points and use Abound. That would leave a lot of low grade inventory in Abound and achieve nothing of value to MVC, so they don't bother.
Its a commonly peddled lie by salespeople, that I usually respond with the challenge to prove it by them logging in to their account and me logging in to an account that only has elected points in and see if there is a difference in what we can see. So far no salesperson has take up my challenge

 

[Rbrass11]

Thank you all for confirming!!

 

[MikeM132]

We just left a Marriott sales pitch, and were told that unless we sold our deeded vacation club weeks back to MVCI (for point value of the units times the current cost of a point, currently $17.64) and repurchased the same amount of trust points, we would not be able to use our legacy points obtained by banking points from our deeded weeks and combine them with the trust points we receive.

This is completely opposite from what we were led to believe when we joined the destinations program and bought trust point years ago. Can anyone confirm that “a point is a point”, and that it is not necessary to sell legacy deeded weeks for trust points in order to participate in the updated Abound programs. Thanks in advance!!

From what I see and hear, there is a big push to get you to turn in your deeded week and buy into points. Some have gone for this. I agree that points are more flexible. Other than that one benefit, owning a deeded week, to me, is a much better deal. I'm not sure how they work points and their value over the years. In everything else where points are invovled, they have been devalued significantly. Can they do this with vacation points? I'm not sure. Can they say a week at MOC costs 7000 points now and 10 years from now it costs 9000 points? I'm sure a deeded week will always be worth a week at that resort. Not sure about points or how (or if) they can be manipulated down the road.

 

[Hindsite]

From what I see and hear, there is a big push to get you to turn in your deeded week and buy into points. Some have gone for this. I agree that points are more flexible. Other than that one benefit, owning a deeded week, to me, is a much better deal. I'm not sure how they work points and their value over the years. In everything else where points are invovled, they have been devalued significantly. Can they do this with vacation points? I'm not sure. Can they say a week at MOC costs 7000 points now and 10 years from now it costs 9000 points? I'm sure a deeded week will always be worth a week at that resort. Not sure about points or how (or if) they can be manipulated down the road.

The only "push" is from salespeople who have points to sell and a commission to make from it. If MVC issued an email out to owners offering voluntary surrender for no cost and no fuss they'd be inundated with people willingly doing it. As it is they get that happening via their "exit" programme and have to refuse people as there are so many offered that they can't use.
The points values both for what you elect your ownership for and what you book for are set, other than fluctuations for weekends and date changes for holidays. There have been a couple of cases since 2010, where the points values have been changed, but there seems to have been an arrangement with owners to address any adverse impact on them. If you want to check you can go and look at the historical points charts.

Vacation Club Points Charts

Marriott Vacation Club Points Chart Abound 2025 Points Chart Abound 2024 Points Chart Abound 2023 Points Chart 2023 Points Chart 2022 Points Chart 2021 Points Chart 2020 Points Chart 2019 Po...

vacationpointexchange.com

 

[dioxide45]

From what I see and hear, there is a big push to get you to turn in your deeded week and buy into points. Some have gone for this. I agree that points are more flexible. Other than that one benefit, owning a deeded week, to me, is a much better deal. I'm not sure how they work points and their value over the years. In everything else where points are invovled, they have been devalued significantly. Can they do this with vacation points? I'm not sure. Can they say a week at MOC costs 7000 points now and 10 years from now it costs 9000 points? I'm sure a deeded week will always be worth a week at that resort. Not sure about points or how (or if) they can be manipulated down the road.

I would argue that deeded weeks (when enrolled) are more flexible. These pitches tend to be toward owners that are already enrolled.

 

[Rbrass11]

I would argue that deeded weeks (when enrolled) are more flexible. These pitches tend to be toward owners that are already enrolled.

I agree that deeded weeks make more sense. The sales agent, who was in her early 30’s, made a statement that the older generation likes to stay in the same place for a week at a time. The “new” way of vacationing is to spend a few days in a destination, then move on from there to another destination. She was trying to make her commission by having us transition to all points.

As I have been able to confirm through this users group, and discussions with Marriott Vacation Club, we can trade our deeded weeks for points. Once those weeks are converted, while there may be some subtle differences between trust points and points earned from deeded weeks in the back office, once the weeks are converted to points, those differences between the points have no bearing on usage or selection of vacation destinations. As deeded owners, we do get preference at our home resort when it comes to room requests. Another reason not to convert from deeded weeks to all trust points.

 

[daviator]

I agree that deeded weeks make more sense. The sales agent, who was in her early 30’s, made a statement that the older generation likes to stay in the same place for a week at a time. The “new” way of vacationing is to spend a few days in a destination, then move on from there to another destination. She was trying to make her commission by having us transition to all points.

As I have been able to confirm through this users group, and discussions with Marriott Vacation Club, we can trade our deeded weeks for points. Once those weeks are converted, while there may be some subtle differences between trust points and points earned from deeded weeks in the back office, once the weeks are converted to points, those differences between the points have no bearing on usage or selection of vacation destinations. As deeded owners, we do get preference at our home resort when it comes to room requests. Another reason not to convert from deeded weeks to all trust points.

Another reason that MVC wants people to trade in deeded weeks is that doing so gives them more and more (and ultimately, 100%) control over each property's HOA board. Once you give up your deeded week, you no longer get to vote on board representation, MVC gets your vote, and they staff the boards with their own people who act in their interest, not necessarily the interests of owners. Control of the HOA boards lets them control the maintenance fees, and we've seen huge increases that are often only partly explainable by increased costs. Since MVC gets 10% of maintenance fees as profit, their incentive is to have them be as high as the market will bear (I'd argue that we've pretty much reached that point, which is why they're talking about smaller increases for next year.)

One way in which MVC seems to encourage MF increases is by not doing basic maintenance like changing HVAC filters, leading to premature failures of very expensive AC units which cost thousands to replace, all because they don't periodically change a $1 filter. We pay for those repairs and replacements, and every time we, the owners, collectively spend $5000 on a new AC unit, MVC makes another $500 in profit. So left to their own devices, they have a financial interest in not performing basic maintenance and driving up costs for owners. How pervasive is this? I don't know, but I've read reports that lead me to believe that it is not uncommon.

 

[dougp26364]

We own both. There is no distinction between the trust points and elected points when we’re making a reservation. Sure the site separates them out so you can tell MVC which points you want to use, but they’ll both reserve the exact same dates

 

[dougp26364]

Thinking about this a little further. If there was a true distinction in the ability to reserve with trust points vs elected points, don’t you think the search engine would give the option of which set of points the owner wanted to use for the search? If trust points see different inventory than elected points, I’d want to be able to search both pools to make sure I was seeing my best options.

 

[daviator]

Thinking about this a little further. If there was a true distinction in the ability to reserve with trust points vs elected points, don’t you think the search engine would give the option of which set of points the owner wanted to use for the search? If trust points see different inventory than elected points, I’d want to be able to search both pools to make sure I was seeing my best options.

Exactly. And they’d be splitting the (sometimes limited) Abound inventory into even smaller buckets. Imagine how the trust point owners would howl when only those with elected points could book resorts which don’t have weeks which are owned by the trust. It would be wildly unpopular and would inhibit their ability to sell points.

 

[davidvel]

One way in which MVC seems to encourage MF increases is by not doing basic maintenance like changing HVAC filters, leading to premature failures of very expensive AC units which cost thousands to replace, all because they don't periodically change a $1 filter. We pay for those repairs and replacements, and every time we, the owners, collectively spend $5000 on a new AC unit, MVC makes another $500 in profit. So left to their own devices, they have a financial interest in not performing basic maintenance and driving up costs for owners. How pervasive is this? I don't know, but I've read reports that lead me to believe that it is not uncommon.

Any evidence to support this extreme claim, beyond "reports"? Especially since you admit "How pervasive is this? I don't know."

 

[daviator]

Any evidence to support this extreme claim, beyond "reports"? Especially since you admit "How pervasive is this? I don't know."

How would we know, other than reports?

Somebody posted in an MVC FB group this week that they were at WKORV and had to call maintenance for an AC problem, maintenance removed the AC filter and it was caked with dirt and completely impassable, and had a date stamped on it from 2004, so it seemed to be the original filter installed when the resort was built. Someone else reported something similar a few months back. I have no reason to think they are lying, so that tells me that neither Starwood nor MVC has done the routine changing of HVAC filters which is necessary to get the expected life out of the equipment. Filters should be changed quarterly, not every 20 years.

Is this kind of deferred maintenance common across the portfolio? Hard to know, but my point was that MVC has an incentive to increase the costs to owners until they almost reach a breaking point, then back off. They maximize their revenue when they maximize MFs. It sure seems like that has happened in the past few years.

A responsible management company maintains the assets, but an opportunistic one maximizes the expenses to boost their percentage. I have dealt with both kinds of managers in my own business, and have dismissed the latter sort. Unfortunately we are not in a position to do that.

ironically, like many owners, I bought into MVC [Starwood/Vistana in my case) because I believed the brand affiliation would ensure that the properties were kept up and maintained their high quality.

 

[Hindsite]

How would we know, other than reports?
They maximize their revenue when they maximize MFs. It sure seems like that has happened in the past few years.
.

You would know by carefully reviewing the budget statements and talking to the resort management team about specifics, as well as observing resort operations and benchmarking against available indicies for the specific cost types. Its no different than any other area of business where there are budget submissions and you have to review and scrutinise them prior to approval.

I've seen lots of inuendo and supposition, such as yours, that leads to an unsupported assumption. There will always be lapses errors and ineptitude, that is just life, but isn't an indicator of any system wide cause, other than MVW have issues recruiting talent like everyone else. I've also see resorts taking a lowest cost at any cost approach to maint fees and watched the quality of the resort deteriorate accordingly and then a struggle to get it back to standard over many years.

I am certain that there is a pressure from MVW to maximise/optimise their revenues, they are a US listed corporate after all, and that will, as a minimum, have an impact subliminally on the management team. My experience of working in large global corporations is that there is often also a greater "loyalty" to the local customers than to the corporate mothership, and that is the balance our (yes they are ours, we pay for them) management teams have to make.

I have also seen MVC table budgets with line items that the BoD declined to approve, and the removal of items that are discretionary, which again is another normal business practice. We've seen BoDs drop the cost of access to adjacent Marriott hotels, as it can run to $100/week and reductions in towel change-over/daily clean etc etc. MVC GMs will be very sensitive to reductions that have an impact on Guest Satisfaction Index, so things will come and go as they test what does and doesn't influence that. I've also seen reports of "glory" projects funded or facilities being considered to be over specified, such as kitchen appliances being more expensive than they could be, fancy lighting or big TV screens. That may be where some of the opportunity to overbudget lies, but then I also see people complaining about things not being good enough.

I've not seen any specific, substantive, supported, evidence that there is system wide padding of maint fees in MVW's favour. If it is there then people need to be paying attention to their budget statements and asking questions more than they are now.

 

[dougp26364]

How would we know, other than reports?

Somebody posted in an MVC FB group this week that they were at WKORV and had to call maintenance for an AC problem, maintenance removed the AC filter and it was caked with dirt and completely impassable, and had a date stamped on it from 2004, so it seemed to be the original filter installed when the resort was built. Someone else reported something similar a few months back. I have no reason to think they are lying, so that tells me that neither Starwood nor MVC has done the routine changing of HVAC filters which is necessary to get the expected life out of the equipment. Filters should be changed quarterly, not every 20 years.

Is this kind of deferred maintenance common across the portfolio? Hard to know, but my point was that MVC has an incentive to increase the costs to owners until they almost reach a breaking point, then back off. They maximize their revenue when they maximize MFs. It sure seems like that has happened in the past few years.

A responsible management company maintains the assets, but an opportunistic one maximizes the expenses to boost their percentage. I have dealt with both kinds of managers in my own business, and have dismissed the latter sort. Unfortunately we are not in a position to do that.

ironically, like many owners, I bought into MVC [Starwood/Vistana in my case) because I believed the brand affiliation would ensure that the properties were kept up and maintained their high quality.

Before I trust someone’s “report”, and this is especially true on FB groups, I want to see pictures that are conclusive and leave no doubt. Nearly everyone has a phone with a camera.

 

[jwalk03]

Before I trust someone’s “report”, and this is especially true on FB groups, I want to see pictures that are conclusive and leave no doubt. Nearly everyone has a phone with a camera.

Agreed! Some of the things I see posted in the owner's facebook groups are insane to me. SOOOOOOO many owners just have no clue about what they own or how the program works at all. And the daily "I was told by a salesman...." that they just take as gospel is truly alarming.

 

[m61376]

Agreed! Some of the things I see posted in the owner's facebook groups are insane to me. SOOOOOOO many owners just have no clue about what they own or how the program works at all. And the daily "I was told by a salesman...." that they just take as gospel is truly alarming.

That's SO true.It's incredulous what people do. Someone just bought 3000 points with the goal of having 1 week a year at a MVC resort and a second week annually at a Marriott all-inclusive hotel property (by exchanging DC points for Bonvoy points). Then they post that they want to see if they can do this. They probably dropped 50K (and possibly more by financing) without a clue. People are so gullible it's alarming!
They posted that they "recently" made the purchase so obviously told them if they're within the recession period to rescind and come to Tug, but

 

[jwalk03]

That's SO true.It's incredulous what people do. Someone just bought 3000 points with the goal of having 1 week a year at a MVC resort and a second week annually at a Marriott all-inclusive hotel property (by exchanging DC points for Bonvoy points). Then they post that they want to see if they can do this. They probably dropped 50K (and possibly more by financing) without a clue. People are so gullible it's alarming!
They posted that they "recently" made the purchase so obviously told them if they're within the recession period to rescind and come to Tug, but

LOL I saw that same post and also recommended that they rescind! hopefully recently was within the last 10 days and not a month ago!

 

[Franken Stein]

We just left a Marriott sales pitch, and were told that unless we sold our deeded vacation club weeks back to MVCI (for point value of the units times the current cost of a point, currently $17.64) and repurchased the same amount of trust points, we would not be able to use our legacy points obtained by banking points from our deeded weeks and combine them with the trust points we receive.

This is completely opposite from what we were led to believe when we joined the destinations program and bought trust point years ago. Can anyone confirm that “a point is a point”, and that it is not necessary to sell legacy deeded weeks for trust points in order to participate in the updated Abound programs. Thanks in advance!!

We attended a virtual sales presentation yesterday. We were told that if we didn't purchase 3000 points (hybrid/trust) that we could no longer use our Destinations/Boundless points at other properties as of Jan. 1, 2025. He got pissy when we started asking direct questions and disconnected the call. I believed this to be a lie and called Marriott Vacation Corporate (800)936-6824. I asked if what the salesperson said was true, and they replied it was NOT! They said that if you are enrolled in the Destinations program (now called Boundless) that NOTHING has changed, She was going to quickly escalate this to sales management that this tactic was not acceptable. Points are points.
I encourage everyone that gets lied to during their sales presentation to complain to corporate. Perhaps if they get too many complaints, they will take the necessary action to stop this fraudulent behavior.

 

[Hindsite]

We attended a virtual sales presentation yesterday. We were told that if we didn't purchase 3000 points (hybrid/trust) that we could no longer use our Destinations/Boundless points at other properties as of Jan. 1, 2025. He got pissy when we started asking direct questions and disconnected the call. I believed this to be a lie and called Marriott Vacation Corporate (800)936-6824. I asked if what the salesperson said was true, and they replied it was NOT! They said that if you are enrolled in the Destinations program (now called Boundless) that NOTHING has changed, She was going to quickly escalate this to sales management that this tactic was not acceptable. Points are points.
I encourage everyone that gets lied to during their sales presentation to complain to corporate. Perhaps if they get too many complaints, they will take the necessary action to stop this fraudulent behavior.

Boundless is a credit card. The new name for the MVC Destinations Exchange Programme is Abound.

 

[davidvel]

We attended a virtual sales presentation yesterday. We were told that if we didn't purchase 3000 points (hybrid/trust) that we could no longer use our Destinations/Boundless points at other properties as of Jan. 1, 2025. He got pissy when we started asking direct questions and disconnected the call. I believed this to be a lie and called Marriott Vacation Corporate (800)936-6824. I asked if what the salesperson said was true, and they replied it was NOT! They said that if you are enrolled in the Destinations program (now called Boundless) that NOTHING has changed, She was going to quickly escalate this to sales management that this tactic was not acceptable. Points are points.
I encourage everyone that gets lied to during their sales presentation to complain to corporate. Perhaps if they get too many complaints, they will take the necessary action to stop this fraudulent behavior.

These pathetic creeps are desperate. They have to sell a very expensive product that many people don't need or want. People are catching onto the points gambit.