• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 26 years!

    Join tens of thousands of other owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $14,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $14 Million dollars
  • Follow the TUG Member Banner as it travels the world on vacation with Timeshare owners! Also sign up to get the banner sent to you so you can submit a photo of your vacation with the banner to share with TUG! Banner Thread
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free! Join tens of thousands of other owners who get this every week! Latest resort reviews and the most important topics discussed by owners during the week!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    Read more Here
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

Apollo Group looking to buy HGVC [Merged]

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ralph Sir Edward

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2013
Messages
793
Reaction score
533
Points
203
Location
Plano, Texas
Whoa. Marriott DC trust inventory is separate from the inventory available to home week owners. The trust consists of developer weeks from ROFR etc. that have been converted into the DC trust.

It is only when the enrolled home week owner (who has paid to enroll in the trust points system) elects to convert their home week to trust points for the year. Only then does the inventory become available to DC trust owners. That owner is not denied their home week privilege.

If Diamond manages their trusts differently, inquiring minds would like to know!

(BTW I may have mangled the MVC terminology but the description is correct.)
CalGalTraveler, I respectfully disagree. Here is the difference.

MVC -
MVC DC trust books at the same time the other owners do. (How they book, and what weeks they book is a black box. There is no way to determine the reality of who gets "first pick". But they are clearly in competition, from the 1st second of the booking window with all they people who are not part of DC trust. You can have a situation where you can't book a week for the time you are trying to get by booking your week, 40 minutes after the 12 month booking window opens, but be told that there are plenty of weeks available to book the same resort and week - if you book via DC points. This is not hypothetical. It happened to me in 2014. (Which is why I dumped Marriott.)

HGVC (and Affiliates)
You have an initial period (the home week window) in which only the people who own at a resort can book there - and only the exact unit type they own - nobody else. After the window closes, usually 3 months, then anybody in the points system can book any resort type they want, if it is available. The points system does not compete with the owners from the first booking second, only after they owners of pricier weeks get a chance to book what they are paying extra for. If that goes away, so do I . . . .
 

escanoe

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2018
Messages
344
Reaction score
160
Points
104
Location
Washington, DC
Resorts Owned
HGVC: Flamingo & Anderson Ocean Club
Woodstone (Luxury, RCI Points) at Massanutten Resort
The cart is so in front of the horse on this thread that I am standing on the back of the cart looking back and I can’t even see a horse.

I think we are in for a merger or acquisition ... movement of the stock price indicates a likelihood of it is baked in.

IMHO, those that think everything will stay the same are in denial or misreading things. It is impossible to know how management of HGV will change or what will be in our future.

I am discounting the potential for some of the worst things being discussed here happening. Whoever owns HGV will have made a major investment in buying it. That value will only go down if current owners (those most likely to purchase more) feel betrayed.

Us TUGers are well enough informed I worry a little that the changes may be ones most owners “perceive” as adding value (maybe for more $), but that we view as potentially devaluing what we own.

Posts that theorize about highly technical specifics of what could happen I find to be so speculative that they don’t have much value.
 

CalGalTraveler

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Messages
5,111
Reaction score
3,811
Points
398
Location
California
Perhaps it is a black box. The folks on the MVC thread seem to indicate otherwise.

What is more predictive is how Diamond handles trust inventory relative to deeds at the same resort today.

@escanoe I agree the cart is way before the horse. However one thing we can say regardless of whether there is an acquisition with 99% certainty:
  • the sales price of a TS VOI will not increase
  • fees will not decline but will always increase.
Whatever happens will affect the velocity of those conditions.
 
Last edited:

JIMinNC

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
3,633
Reaction score
2,315
Points
449
Location
Marvin, NC (Charlotte suburb)
Resorts Owned
Marriott:
Maui Ocean Club
Waiohai Beach Club
Barony Beach Club
Destination Club Trust
HGVC:
HGVC at Sea World
Perhaps it is a black box. The folks on the MVC thread seem to indicate otherwise.
Ralph is correct in that it is something of a "black box" in MVC.

While the amount of Trust inventory and the amount of legacy weeks inventory is kept in two totally separate buckets in the MVC system. (i.e. - if there are 1000 intervals in a given season/view category at a resort, and the Trust owns 60%, then 600 intervals will be available to Trust owners and 400 to legacy owners. Those two pools are totally separate as far as ownership rights for those intervals.) But remember, those 1000 intervals are usually almost all floating intervals. So who is entitled to week 26 in unit 1201 - a Trust owner or a legacy owner? If there are 100 week 26 units, could MVC take all 100 for the Trust that week, but give legacy owners all 100 in week 10? Or do they split each week 60/40? That's where the black box comes in. When you add in units MVC controls for rentals and other buckets, it gets even more complex. That's what we call it a "black box". Who gets first dibs for any given week? Could MVC take all of the best weeks for the Trust while leaving the lesser demanded weeks for legacy owners, but still keeping the overall 60/40 split intact? Once the individual intervals are put into either the Trust bucket or the legacy bucket, they are totally separate and everyone is whole. But for any given week, how do individual intervals get "chosen" for each bucket?
 
Last edited:

Tamaradarann

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
2,045
Reaction score
474
Points
293
Location
Long Island, New York
Resorts Owned
HGVC South Beach, HGVC Las Vegas, HGVC Las Vegas on the Strip, HGVC Sea World, Misner Place
Tamaradarann, The real question will be - will there still be an owner's only window, as there is today, or will the "Club" directly compete for reservations from booking day1 (a la Marriott DC)? (And also for affiliates, where would those owners who aren't part of HGVC fall? Fixed week is OK, but Bay Club is 1-50 seasonal. I wonder how that would fall out. . . )
Since HGVC deeds provide an OWNERS SEASON FOR HOME WEEK WINDOW I doubt that they could eliminate that preference legally. My concern would be for HGVC owners who don't use their home week where they own but use it during the CLUB SEASON which could be changed. Since I and many HGVC members don't own weeks in Hawaii that they use in Hawaii that would be my specific concern. For the most part we have been able to reserve the weeks we want in Hawaii during Club season. That could change especially since the Hawaii Collection that DRI has has many non Hawaii Resorts so the DRI availability in the Hawaii Collection is less than the number of owner points in that Collection. if owners in that Collection could reserve in HGVC inventory in Hawaii on an equal basis with HGVC members it could disturb the current availability for HGVC owners.
 

geist1223

Guest
Joined
May 20, 2015
Messages
2,958
Reaction score
2,413
Points
299
Location
Salem Oregon
Resorts Owned
Worldmark 89,000
Seaside Oregon Residence Club
DRI Hawaiian Collection 50,500
Royal Solaris San Jose del Cabo
In the DRI Hawaiian Collection there are only 5 to 6 Resorts. 3 actually in Hawaii. So there are not "many" non-Hawaiian Resorts in the DRI Hawaiian Collection. In addition to the 3 Resorts located in Hawaii if you bought your Points from DRI there are many affiliates located in Hawaii that you have access. If you bought resell DRI Points then you only have access to the actual 5 to 6 Resorts in the Collection. The 3 Resorts actually in Hawaii are KBC, Point at Poipu, and the Modern Honolulu.
 

Ralph Sir Edward

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2013
Messages
793
Reaction score
533
Points
203
Location
Plano, Texas
Since HGVC deeds provide an OWNERS SEASON FOR HOME WEEK WINDOW I doubt that they could eliminate that preference legally. My concern would be for HGVC owners who don't use their home week where they own but use it during the CLUB SEASON which could be changed. Since I and many HGVC members don't own weeks in Hawaii that they use in Hawaii that would be my specific concern. For the most part we have been able to reserve the weeks we want in Hawaii during Club season. That could change especially since the Hawaii Collection that DRI has has many non Hawaii Resorts so the DRI availability in the Hawaii Collection is less than the number of owner points in that Collection. if owners in that Collection could reserve in HGVC inventory in Hawaii on an equal basis with HGVC members it could disturb the current availability for HGVC owners.
They could bypass it. Consider. . .

DVI offers access to the new system, if one assigns one's week to the pool, one year in advance. Then DVI's new system books that week in it's home week window, and places the week in the new system pool.

Perfectly legal, and then there is direct pool competition with owners in the restricted home week period. . .
 

JIMinNC

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
3,633
Reaction score
2,315
Points
449
Location
Marvin, NC (Charlotte suburb)
Resorts Owned
Marriott:
Maui Ocean Club
Waiohai Beach Club
Barony Beach Club
Destination Club Trust
HGVC:
HGVC at Sea World
Since HGVC deeds provide an OWNERS SEASON FOR HOME WEEK WINDOW I doubt that they could eliminate that preference legally.
I don't believe the the HGVC deed provides for a non-revokable required Home Week window. It does say in our Warranty Deed, Exhibit A Legal Description:

4. The specific use restrictions set forth in the rules and regulations contained in the Hilton Grand Vacations Club Disclosure Statement, as the same may be amended from time to time, an initial copy of which is attached to the Declaration as Exhibit "H".

The bolding above is mine, but HGVC could amend the rules. There is nothing directly in the deed that would prevent them from doing that. Not to say they would do that, since it would have a big impact on customer satisfaction and their brand, but there are no guarantees.
 

Ralph Sir Edward

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2013
Messages
793
Reaction score
533
Points
203
Location
Plano, Texas
I don't believe the the HGVC deed provides for a non-revokable required Home Week window. It does say in our Warranty Deed, Exhibit A Legal Description:

4. The specific use restrictions set forth in the rules and regulations contained in the Hilton Grand Vacations Club Disclosure Statement, as the same may be amended from time to time, an initial copy of which is attached to the Declaration as Exhibit "H".

The bolding above is mine, but HGVC could amend the rules. There is nothing directly in the deed that would prevent them from doing that. Not to say they would do that, since it would have a big impact on customer satisfaction and their brand, but there are no guarantees.
How that would affect affiliates is unknown. Any affiliate owner has the right, but not the obligation (I don't), to join HGVC. Who would have the priority (between non-HGVC owners and the HGVC owners) should the home week window be eliminated, is truly undefined.. . .
 

escanoe

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2018
Messages
344
Reaction score
160
Points
104
Location
Washington, DC
Resorts Owned
HGVC: Flamingo & Anderson Ocean Club
Woodstone (Luxury, RCI Points) at Massanutten Resort
In the DRI Hawaiian Collection there are only 5 to 6 Resorts. 3 actually in Hawaii. So there are not "many" non-Hawaiian Resorts in the DRI Hawaiian Collection.
Since I am now joining in the wild speculation:

So the best and brightest of us TUGers with our platinum Vegas weeks may find ourselves in the new DRI “Vegas Collection?”

Arguably in better shape than our “elite” friends over in the “Scotland Collection?”
 

CalGalTraveler

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Messages
5,111
Reaction score
3,811
Points
398
Location
California
Since I am now joining in the wild speculation:

So the best and brightest of us TUGers with our platinum Vegas weeks may find ourselves in the new DRI “Vegas Collection?”

Arguably in better shape than our “elite” friends over in the “Scotland Collection?”
LOL!!!! That's gotta be one of the best lines I've ever heard on Tug.

If we are forced to become a "Vegas Collection" owner, we will move all future spend to the "Westin/Marriott/Hyatt" Collection!

MVC must love this...
 
Last edited:

CalGalTraveler

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Messages
5,111
Reaction score
3,811
Points
398
Location
California
The mixed-use hotel and Blackstone owned properties e.g. Elara, Midtown, HHV, OT, District, Chicago will likely be the most protected because those powerful property owners will not tolerate Diamond/Apollo skimming off monies for reserve to corporate overhead and will sue. Those TS properties will need to pay their fare share toward property renovations.
 
Last edited:

1Kflyerguy

TUG Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Messages
1,800
Reaction score
383
Points
194
Location
San Jose, Ca
Resorts Owned
HGVC Kings Land, Marriott Destination Club Points
I don't believe the the HGVC deed provides for a non-revokable required Home Week window. It does say in our Warranty Deed, Exhibit A Legal Description:

4. The specific use restrictions set forth in the rules and regulations contained in the Hilton Grand Vacations Club Disclosure Statement, as the same may be amended from time to time, an initial copy of which is attached to the Declaration as Exhibit "H".

The bolding above is mine, but HGVC could amend the rules. There is nothing directly in the deed that would prevent them from doing that. Not to say they would do that, since it would have a big impact on customer satisfaction and their brand, but there are no guarantees.
I don't see why DRI or anyone would buy a company and then make changes to the product that destroy the value. Usually the goal is to increase customer satisfaction and value.

TUG members not included, HGV seems to do a good business selling multiple weeks to customers, I think the company will want to retain that business model.
 

JIMinNC

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
3,633
Reaction score
2,315
Points
449
Location
Marvin, NC (Charlotte suburb)
Resorts Owned
Marriott:
Maui Ocean Club
Waiohai Beach Club
Barony Beach Club
Destination Club Trust
HGVC:
HGVC at Sea World
I don't see why DRI or anyone would buy a company and then make changes to the product that destroy the value. Usually the goal is to increase customer satisfaction and value.

TUG members not included, HGV seems to do a good business selling multiple weeks to customers, I think the company will want to retain that business model.
Agreed. At least not consciously. Although there have been cases where companies have been acquired and the acquirer makes changes they think will add value, but they soon find out the changes were not well received - or they go for short term revenue over long term growth - with the same result.
 

PigsDad

TUG Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Messages
6,604
Reaction score
2,320
Points
498
Location
Northern Colorado
Resorts Owned
HGVC Elite: SeaWorld, Surf Club, Charter Club, Valdoro
Agreed. At least not consciously. Although there have been cases where companies have been acquired and the acquirer makes changes they think will add value, but they soon find out the changes were not well received - or they go for short term revenue over long term growth - with the same result.
Or the acquirer has the goal of making everything they own homogeneous in order to take advantage of economies of scale, reducing costs to increase profit. Not sure if that would work with a product like HGVC, but that is what concerns me the most with a possible takeover.

Kurt
 

Tamaradarann

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
2,045
Reaction score
474
Points
293
Location
Long Island, New York
Resorts Owned
HGVC South Beach, HGVC Las Vegas, HGVC Las Vegas on the Strip, HGVC Sea World, Misner Place
In the DRI Hawaiian Collection there are only 5 to 6 Resorts. 3 actually in Hawaii. So there are not "many" non-Hawaiian Resorts in the DRI Hawaiian Collection. In addition to the 3 Resorts located in Hawaii if you bought your Points from DRI there are many affiliates located in Hawaii that you have access. If you bought resell DRI Points then you only have access to the actual 5 to 6 Resorts in the Collection. The 3 Resorts actually in Hawaii are KBC, Point at Poipu, and the Modern Honolulu.
I understood that in the Hawaii Collection there are 2 in Las Vegas, and 1 each in Arizona, California, and Utah and at the present time the Modern is not yet a timeshare. Furthermore, I am not nor do I intend to be an owner of DRI unless they take over HGVC and make me be an owner. My concern is changing the rules and availability in HGVC which work very well. If the HGVC rules and availability stay the same I am good. "IF" there are other opportunities WITHOUT reducing the current availability in HGVC I am even better.
 

Tamaradarann

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
2,045
Reaction score
474
Points
293
Location
Long Island, New York
Resorts Owned
HGVC South Beach, HGVC Las Vegas, HGVC Las Vegas on the Strip, HGVC Sea World, Misner Place
I don't believe the the HGVC deed provides for a non-revokable required Home Week window. It does say in our Warranty Deed, Exhibit A Legal Description:

4. The specific use restrictions set forth in the rules and regulations contained in the Hilton Grand Vacations Club Disclosure Statement, as the same may be amended from time to time, an initial copy of which is attached to the Declaration as Exhibit "H".

The bolding above is mine, but HGVC could amend the rules. There is nothing directly in the deed that would prevent them from doing that. Not to say they would do that, since it would have a big impact on customer satisfaction and their brand, but there are no guarantees.
You may be correct the HGVC home week preference could be eliminated, however, the reason I mentioned a non-revokable HOME WEEK is that the HGVC doesn't provide a specific HOME WEEK but a HOME WEEK SEASON, or RESERVATION WINDOW. Since most people on TUG have mentioned in the past that HGVC could change the club rules but they couldn't change your ability to use what you own, I feel that what you own must be given some type of home week preference. I personally no longer have any affinity for any of the weeks that I own so HOME WEEK OR HOME SEASON BOOKING WINDOW is NOT an issue for me, however, I know there are a lot of people who own in New York and Honolulu who would be ready to kill if they lost their home week privileges and had to fight with the larger HGVC or DRI crowd for reservations!!
 

GT75

Moderator
Joined
May 30, 2016
Messages
1,927
Reaction score
850
Points
323
Location
Gig City in Tennessee
Resorts Owned
HGVC-x7
You may be correct the HGVC home week preference could be eliminated, however, the reason I mentioned a non-revokable HOME WEEK is that the HGVC doesn't provide a specific HOME WEEK but a HOME WEEK SEASON, or RESERVATION WINDOW.
I don't see how "home week booking" could legally be eliminated. To me, that is the bases of our deed and foundation of the HGVC system. I do agree that the club rules could be changed.
 

CalGalTraveler

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Messages
5,111
Reaction score
3,811
Points
398
Location
California
I could envision the scenario that @Ralph Sir Edward playing out in Hawaiian MVC and Westins where the platinum season is 50 weeks. So you may end up with the worst week of the 50 week platinum season. However that hasn't happened in 9 years of MVC DC program and availability is still good for deeded home weeks from what I can tell (I am not an owner but have been watching the MVC thread).

Most HGVC properties have shorter platinum seasons so if a trust program played games and took most of the weeks, you still would be assured of a home week reservation during that Platinum season. Otherwise, they are doing more than playing games, they are double-selling weeks which may constitute fraud. RCI got in legal trouble several years ago for such a practice.
 
Last edited:

nuwermj

TUG Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
519
Reaction score
200
Points
153
Location
Potsdam, NY
Or the acquirer has the goal of making everything they own homogeneous in order to take advantage of economies of scale, reducing costs to increase profit. Not sure if that would work with a product like HGVC, but that is what concerns me the most with a possible takeover.
I don't believe it is necessary to homogenize vacation clubs in order to realize economies of scale. Back office functions can be centralized and then provided to multiple vacation clubs. Lots of scale economies here.
 

Mizzou39

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2019
Messages
9
Reaction score
7
Points
54
Location
Wellington, FL
Resorts Owned
HGVC - Tuscany, HGVC Parc Soliel
I don't believe it is necessary to homogenize vacation clubs in order to realize economies of scale. Back office functions can be centralized and then provided to multiple vacation clubs. Lots of scale economies here.
I think you are on the right track. A buyer would not purchase a valuable franchise to destroy it. Much of the HGVC value stems from reputation, Hilton name and quality of the properties. If the properties were to be folded into other DRI properties then the value declines.

There is a possible value play, though, by utilizing economies of scale. Keep HGVC as it's own class but create savings through centralizing back office operations. This would have the impact of increasing the value of the brand.
 

hurnik

TUG Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2006
Messages
1,374
Reaction score
314
Points
293
Location
Albany, NY
I think you are on the right track. A buyer would not purchase a valuable franchise to destroy it. Much of the HGVC value stems from reputation, Hilton name and quality of the properties. If the properties were to be folded into other DRI properties then the value declines.

There is a possible value play, though, by utilizing economies of scale. Keep HGVC as it's own class but create savings through centralizing back office operations. This would have the impact of increasing the value of the brand.
Well they wouldn't *intentionally* destroy it (well in this case, because it's a VC firm). Microsoft, for example, will buy up their competition to "destroy" it (they basically shelve the entire company and that's that, you've destroyed your competition and their technology never sees the light of day).

VC firms want to make a quick buck, and in the process can "destroy" the company. Happens quite frequently. However, my hope is that Hilton is smart enough to not let this tarnish their name, plus Blackstone has a history with Hilton, so I see that as a plus.

But there's little if anything, any of us can do about it, at least now.
 

1Kflyerguy

TUG Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Messages
1,800
Reaction score
383
Points
194
Location
San Jose, Ca
Resorts Owned
HGVC Kings Land, Marriott Destination Club Points
Its true that sometime acquisitions don't go well for everyone involved.

Some investors and private equity firms are focused on the short-term, but many also try to build greater value over time.

I tend to agree with Nuwermj, there are many ways to achieve economies of scale without combining everything into a single system. It would seem odd to buy a company like HGV and then make moves such as restricting reservation rights. That would seem certain to antagonize the existing HGV owners, and i don't see how they could think current owners would not be upset and vocal.
 

brp

TUG Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
2,035
Reaction score
674
Points
323
Location
Bay Area, CA
It would seem odd to buy a company like HGV and then make moves such as restricting reservation rights. That would seem certain to antagonize the existing HGV owners, and i don't see how they could think current owners would not be upset and vocal.
Agreed. As has likely been mentioned in these many pages, HGVC spend quite a bit of marketing dollars on trying to sell more points to existing members. Presumably they must be pretty successful at this, our cases notwithstanding. Gutting the program and pissing off current owner is not conducive to them buying more.

Cheers.
 

geist1223

Guest
Joined
May 20, 2015
Messages
2,958
Reaction score
2,413
Points
299
Location
Salem Oregon
Resorts Owned
Worldmark 89,000
Seaside Oregon Residence Club
DRI Hawaiian Collection 50,500
Royal Solaris San Jose del Cabo
So after 24 days, 14 pages, and 349 Posts what have we decided?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top