Anything in HGVC that you are not happy about?

[win555]

I'm considering buying HGVC based on recommendations in another thread. I'm doing my due diligence. Is there anything in HGVC you are not happy about? Any reason I should not buy HGVC resale?

Your experiences with resale points systems

I'm curious which points system people recommend if you like locations in Hyatt, Wyndham, Vistana and HGVC. Which one is better for resale buyers? Constrained to school holidays but can book well in advance Prefer 2 BR or bigger units but 1 BR ok as well Flexibility for cancellations Value for...

tugbbs.com

 

[rjp123]

Owner since 2010 (SoBe).

The only thing I don't like about the system is that some of the newer properties have point values higher than the property I own at (for the same room type and season).

So one week at my property is less than one week that some of the new properties even though they are the same room type and season. It wasn't like this when I purchased and seems to be a trend to get people to buy up.

Other than that very happy with my purchase and get a lot of use out of it. Buy resale only.

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[win555]

Owner since 2010 (SoBe).

The only thing I don't like about the system is that some of the newer properties have point values higher than the property I own at (for the same room type and season).

So one week at my property is less than one week that some of the new properties even though they are the same room type and season. It wasn't like this when I purchased and seems to be a trend to get people to buy up.

Seems like this is a devaluation of the legacy owners. Kill 'em with inflation, which is a tool of choice for many governments and central banks as well.

Does this mean the legacy resorts are now cheaper to buy and will continue to lose value? HGVC will destroy the equity of legacy owners?

It makes me cautious.

 

[rjp123]

seems like this is a devaluation of the legacy owners. Kill 'em with inflation, which is a tool of choice for many governments and central banks as well.

The majority of the legacy properties are still using the same points for the same season and room type. It's the newer properties that seem to have the point inflation. That said the legacy properties are still very nice.

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[win555]

The majority of the legacy properties are still using the same points for the same season and room type. It's the newer properties that seem to have the point inflation. That said the legacy properties are still very nice.

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yes, but the club would be flooded with points from the new resorts, and the people owning new resorts would be able to book more time at the legacy resorts than they can book at their own resort so they will effectively make life difficult for legacy owners with the competition.

 

[escanoe]

This devaluation is a legitimate concern, but you could read too much into it. Point inflation is largely going on in more expensive urban areas or super premium spots. It is an inconvenience needing more points to book some of them, but these new resorts are not flooding the market with devalued points.

You can still buy points much cheaper per point AND have a lower MF/point ratio buying the more efficient legacy resorts in Vegas than buying the new premium ones.

I read your other thread, and I think 7k platinum points would be a comfortable starting point for you if you decide to go. HGVC is super flexible. You can borrow points from the next year for free. If you don’t use all your points in a year, it’s like $125 or something to roll them to the next year.

My situation is much like yours. I bought HGVC two years ago. My biggest mistake was not starting at 7k points. I solved that by getting a good deal on a 6.2k EOY contract ... If you are going to play it strategic with buying during the recession we are now in, starting at 7K points with a good mf$/point ratio sounds like a good sweet spot.

You are going to get some navel gazing complaints abt HGVC the way you asked the question (a fine question). But if the locations work for you ... HGVC does better on resale than the other alternatives.

Seems like this is a devaluation of the legacy owners. Kill 'em with inflation, which is a tool of choice for many governments and central banks as well.

Does this mean the legacy resorts are now cheaper to buy and will continue to lose value? HGVC will destroy the equity of legacy owners?

It makes me cautious.

 

[dayooper]

yes, but the club would be flooded with points from the new resorts, and the people owning new resorts would be able to book more time at the legacy resorts than they can book at their own resort so they will effectively make life difficult for legacy owners with the competition.

Maybe, but those that pay the high buy-in costs for the new resorts do so because they usually want to stay there. The Hawaii resorts are very expensive ($180,000 for the top in Ocean Tower). The Quin’s 21,000 points was reported to be $499,000. You aren’t buying that to go to Myrtle Beach or Carlsbad. HGVC has a home week window where you can book your home week 12 months out. It has to be a full week in your season and room size/designation and you use all of your points for that week. The club booking window starts at 276 days (9 months). There are some exceptions, but they are few and far between.

Some resorts are just hard to book. The SW Florida resorts are affiliates and not all the weeks are enrolled into a HGVC. Ocean Oak in HHI, ski weeks in Colorado/Utah and holiday/school schedules in Oahu can be very difficult too. If you book at 276 days, you have a great shot of getting what you want (with the exceptions above being more difficult).

Even some of the new resorts still have some rooms with the legacy points structure. Last summer, we stayed in Myrtle Beach at Ocean 22 and reserved a gorgeous 2 bedroom in the platinum season for 7000 points. We were heading back this year, traveling with another family. They booked at the end of November a 7000 point 2 bedroom at 7 months. Ocean Enclave has platinum season rooms from 4800 points all the way up to 18,000 points.

As @escanoe says above, I’m more worried that the new resorts will have point structures higher than I can book. Since the majority of the resorts my family would want to go to still have rooms in our point range, I’m happy. It may change, but where we liked to go, there are enough nice HGVC resorts to keep us traveling.

 

[dayooper]

The biggest issue I have (and its a small one) is the resorts are concentrated in particular areas. I wish there were more midwest resorts, but we knew that going in, so it’s not a big deal for me. The rooms are great (take a look at the pics in the sticky above) and the service is exceptional. Now, if the made a Traverse City Michigan resort, I would be ecstatic!

 

[Tamaradarann]

Seems like this is a devaluation of the legacy owners. Kill 'em with inflation, which is a tool of choice for many governments and central banks as well.

Does this mean the legacy resorts are now cheaper to buy and will continue to lose value? HGVC will destroy the equity of legacy owners?

It makes me cautious.

Timeshares in general are always losing equity value. Sales people, who you can't believe, who are selling for the developer will say they will go up in value but almost all go down, and most go down a lot. The developers set the price without regard to the market. So what they say is worth 40K, 100K or 400K is what they want to get for it, not what it is really worth on the open fair market, which is the resale market. You buy timeshares as an investment in YOUR vacation enjoyment, Not as an monetary investment.

However, if you buy resale, and get a reasonably good deal, you have bought it AT MARKET VALUE at the time of purchase. It may go down in value but not dramatically like a developer purchase at inflated prices. At times when the economy swings up and down it could actually go up some. However, again you buy timeshares as an investment in YOUR vacation enjoyment, Not as an monetary investment.

To give you some real life examples. We purchased all of our timeshares between 2006 and 2008. We purchased 1 our timeshares, our first timeshare which is not an HGVC property, from the developer for $19,000 and it is worth less than $1000 right now. We purchased the other 6, which are all HGVC properties, resale. However, 3 of them were resales from an HGVC resale agent in Florida. We purchased them for 8K and I would estimate that their current resale value to be about 4K. We purchased the other 3 from an independent licensed real estate sales person for 7K, 12K, 13K. I would estimate that their current resale value to be about 5K, 10K, 10K. I hope that this information is helpful.

 

[ljmiii]

I own HGVC, MVCI, and DVC. And HGVC is the easiest to use and most pleasant to own of the three. In particular, there isn't the same frantic rush to 'call in' to book your home week at the 'opening bell' - 9:00:01AM - as there is with MVCI. And generally speaking making HGVC points reservations are also much easier than MVCI or DVC so long as you want to go one of the places HGVC has lots of inventory - Big Island, Vegas, Orlando, even O'ahu if you are willing to spend the points to stay at Grand Islander or Grand Waikikian.

If there is anything I'm not happy about it is that HGVC doesn't have as many locations as I would like and that getting into some of the affiliates - like those on the Gulf Coast of Florida - is quite difficult. But I knew that going in so it doesn't bother me.

 

[TravelTime]

I am enjoying this thread even though I do not own HGVC. I am learning a lot.

 

[SteelerGal]

Locations. We are West Coast and wish there were other locations besides SD, Vegas, and Hawaii. I’m not a fan of RCI so I focus on travel w/in HGVC.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

I am enjoying this thread even though I do not own HGVC. I am learning a lot.

One great advantage to HGVC is the "hybrid" nature of ownership. One can treat it as a purely points system, if one chooses, but if one wants to be certain of getting a particular location, <and is willing to pay for that>, you can buy at that location and book the home week in advance of the points booking. That usually costs more in maintenance fees, but you can be almost certain of getting your location.

 

[win555]

This devaluation is a legitimate concern, but you could read too much into it. Point inflation is largely going on in more expensive urban areas or super premium spots. It is an inconvenience needing more points to book some of them, but these new resorts are not flooding the market with devalued points.

You can still buy points much cheaper per point AND have a lower MF/point ratio buying the more efficient legacy resorts in Vegas than buying the new premium ones.

I read your other thread, and I think 7k platinum points would be a comfortable starting point for you if you decide to go. HGVC is super flexible. You can borrow points from the next year for free. If you don’t use all your points in a year, it’s like $125 or something to roll them to the next year.

My situation is much like yours. I bought HGVC two years ago. My biggest mistake was not starting at 7k points. I solved that by getting a good deal on a 6.2k EOY contract ... If you are going to play it strategic with buying during the recession we are now in, starting at 7K points with a good mf$/point ratio sounds like a good sweet spot.

You are going to get some navel gazing complaints abt HGVC the way you asked the question (a fine question). But if the locations work for you ... HGVC does better on resale than the other alternatives.

I think reading too much depends on the level of points printing by the developer. Worldmark has this same exact problem where the developer brought in many resorts in the system in not so prime locations with high points costs. The points cost for low season is also too high for those destinations. Those resorts sit empty because few people care to go spend their vacation time in such places or in low season, so the point generated from those resorts make it difficult to legacy owners to get reservations at good locations with legacy point values.

HGVC could be headed in that direction. The velocity depends on the quality/quantity of new resorts.


Nothing is perfect, so I know I need to pick something that is good enough. But it's better to know the flaws of a house before buying (i.e. important to read disclosures and inspection report).

 

[win555]

The biggest issue I have (and its a small one) is the resorts are concentrated in particular areas. I wish there were more midwest resorts, but we knew that going in, so it’s not a big deal for me. The rooms are great (take a look at the pics in the sticky above) and the service is exceptional. Now, if the made a Traverse City Michigan resort, I would be ecstatic!

Worldmark has a resort in mid-west that is always empty. My guess is if HGVC built one in midwest, it would be a negative for the overall club.

It looks like HGVC is concentrated in locations with more year round demand like Orlando, Vegas, Hawaii, California. I think that's a good thing.

 

[tombanjo]

Quin has weeks for 3750 points - so not all new resorts leave out the low point owner. I think the high end point rooms are overall good as they bring in higher revenue. Since at some level - points are points - there will be a balance between existing properties which have the point levels locked in and prices. Arbitrage will be an equalizer for the smart owner.

 

[win555]

Quin has weeks for 3750 points - so not all new resorts leave out the low point owner. I think the high end point rooms are overall good as they bring in higher revenue. Since at some level - points are points - there will be a balance between existing properties which have the point levels locked in and prices. Arbitrage will be an equalizer for the smart owner.

I'm not sure how high end point rooms in HGVC bring more revenue to the club? Maybe to the individual resort if the MF is high. Not otherwise.

 

[rjp123]

I'm not sure how high end point rooms in HGVC bring more revenue to the club? Maybe to the individual resort if the MF is high. Not otherwise.

The only time high point rooms bringing more revenue is when they're sold.

Maintenance fees are based on room type and season, not number of points. A gold person will pay the same maintenance fees as a platinum person on a one-bedroom unit.


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[win555]

The only time high point rooms bringing more revenue is when they're sold.

Maintenance fees are based on room type and season, not number of points. A gold person will pay the same maintenance fees as a platinum person on a one-bedroom unit.


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When they are sold revenue goes to developer.

One more I want to add. High points means more club bookings means more reservation fees. Also high points folks are probably more likely to save points. So overall it may increase revenue to the club manager. But the limit on this reservation fee revenue is limited by the useful inventory. So if they keep adding high point units, it could eventually backfire because there is nothing useful available to book with those points. So people will stop redeeming weeks for points and the club becomes meaningless.

Reality is probably somewhere in between.

 

[tombanjo]

if people are gonna drop a half a mil on a week rental, they will want a resort with nice amenities and elevators that go up and down reliably

 

[dayooper]

Worldmark has a resort in mid-west that is always empty. My guess is if HGVC built one in midwest, it would be a negative for the overall club.

It looks like HGVC is concentrated in locations with more year round demand like Orlando, Vegas, Hawaii, California. I think that's a good thing.

Oh, I agree on the Midwest. They do have a Chicago property, but it has more of an urban, hotel like feel. No full kitchen or plates/flatware. Traverse City is a different animal then the other midwestern resort places, but not popular enough to build there.

I believe they need resorts in different areas. Arizona, Northern Cali, and more in the Caribbean. These are all places that could handle upscale resorts easily. I believe they understand there are holes in their property locations too. During last years investor calls, they talked about the various places they are looking to build. They have are supposedly building in Gatlinburg/Pigeon Forge and have identified 10-20 places they are researching building new resorts. These are places where their owner base lives and are under represented in resort location. Texas and Arizona were the the 2 mentioned. I have a tendency to believe investor calls more than owners updates that can and are embellished for a sale.

BTW - Welcome to the forum. It’s such an awesome place where I have learned so much from the members here. They guided me on what to buy and how to use it most effectively. Stick around and learn.

 

[jabberwocky]

When they are sold revenue goes to developer.

One more I want to add. High points means more club bookings means more reservation fees. Also high points folks are probably more likely to save points. So overall it may increase revenue to the club manager. But the limit on this reservation fee revenue is limited by the useful inventory. So if they keep adding high point units, it could eventually backfire because there is nothing useful available to book with those points. So people will stop redeeming weeks for points and the club becomes meaningless.

Reality is probably somewhere in between.

I think the difference between WM which are purely points based and systems that have underlying deeds at a particular resort with a point overlay (like HGVC) is that the maintenance fees can vary quite a bit between resorts. The points differentials at these new locations seem to help even out this imbalance.

For instance, our HGVC home resort is in Las Vegas ("the strip" location). Maintenance fees are around $900/year for the 2BR unit worth 7000 poins (fairly common). If I were to go to Kings' Land on the Big Island in Hawaii I'd likely stay in a 2BR there which needs 14,400 points to book; however, the MF for that unit are over $1800/year, so it somewhat evens out. This is not to say that there are not opportunities for arbitrage (there are many), but it's not like they are manufacturing points in low-value locations. Those who are getting those large point units are paying significantly for them (both for intial buy-in and MF).

 

[CalGalTraveler]

The prior posters have summed it up well. I have 3 points to add:

1) There are also a concentration of HGV properties in NYC with a total of 5 with 2 new properties expected by end of year. The other TS companies only have one. That has pros and cons. con: Those are by Hilton Club points (bHC) which are a more expensive tier of points. You can use club points in NYC but will need to reserve 120 - 60 days in advance after the owners and bHC points members have gotten first reservation priority. On the pro side, with 5 NYC properties this brings much inventory to potentially reserve with club points for the next few years. You many not get the penthouse or some of the units with Central Park views but will have a reasonably good chance to get access to NYC until the buildings sell out.

2) FYI below are the new locations/properties that HGVC has announced pre-Covid:

Officially Announced or recently opened

1. Saint Philip, Barbados: HGVC @ The Crane (partially open)
2. New York, New York: The Quin by Hilton Club (sales in progress)
3. New York, New York: Central at Fifth By Hilton Club (sales in progress)
3. Cabo San Lucas, Mexico: HGVC or bHC Hilton @ Los Cabos
4. Chicago, Illinois, Club (now open)
5. Ocean Tower, BI (partially open)
6. Waikiki, TBD(new build)
7. Okinawa, Japan
8. Charleston, SC, TBD club or bHC
9. Maui, Kihei HI ( New build, 2022 opening)
10. The District, DC By Hilton Club (now open)

Rumored

1. Turtle Bay, HI: HGVC @ Turtle Bay "rumored"
2. Ambergris Caye, Belize: Mahogany Bay Resort & Beach Club @ HGVC "rumored"
3. San Francisco, CA: "rumored"
4. China: "rumored"

3) I expect that HGVC will continue to pursue expansion to compete with MVC. About half of the above properties are co-located with Hilton Hotels, so can expect more Hilton hotel floor and wing conversions. HGVC also has a large Asian base (particularly in Japan). We could expect more Asia and Pacific Rim to satisfy this base. FWIW I would love for HGV to buy Welk (but that's just my wishful thinking at this point; no word from HGV on this.)

 

[Sandy VDH]

Ditto on the locations. They are getting a bit better, but they have a model of many resorts at a single destination. Good for them, but not so much for me.

 

[win555]

Another consideration is your exit strategy. On points systems is there is an underlying deed? If so where it is located to consider exit. If your family suffered a severe setback - health, disability, lost jobs, how would you exit? The major hotel brands have a deedback programs if the unit is paid off and MF current. If you purchase a desireable unit you can sell or give it way.

But if there is complete economic failure and you cannot, is there a legal recourse? If the property is deeded in California, Florida, South Carolina, and a handful of other states, then you can walk and the only recourse is for the developer to take the TS unit in foreclosure. They cannot go after your other property (a deficiency judgment) but you may end up with a ding on your credit - but if it is a catastrophe, then it will already be a mess so will not matter.

There is an excellent sticky on TS regulations by state and it will tell you about non-judicial, anti-deficiency by state (which is good). It is unclear how pure points trusts without an underlying deed are considered under these laws since these programs are relatively new.

I'm going to look for a HGVC week in these states: California, Florida, South Carolina. While HGVC seems to be overall positive, you never know if they decide to hire people who worked for Enron or Wells Fargo and take a direction not favorable to owners.

I think the difference between WM which are purely points based and systems that have underlying deeds at a particular resort with a point overlay (like HGVC) is that the maintenance fees can vary quite a bit between resorts. The points differentials at these new locations seem to help even out this imbalance.

For instance, our HGVC home resort is in Las Vegas ("the strip" location). Maintenance fees are around $900/year for the 2BR unit worth 7000 poins (fairly common). If I were to go to Kings' Land on the Big Island in Hawaii I'd likely stay in a 2BR there which needs 14,400 points to book; however, the MF for that unit are over $1800/year, so it somewhat evens out. This is not to say that there are not opportunities for arbitrage (there are many), but it's not like they are manufacturing points in low-value locations. Those who are getting those large point units are paying significantly for them (both for intial buy-in and MF).

I think this is a great point. Arbritrage opportunities tend to die over time and a healthy club overall is better for long term than one with out sized arbitrage opportunities.

With WM, a 3 BR unit in Hawaii costs same number of points as one in low demand locations.